Front locking Bolt types?

[BattleRifleG3]

I used to think a bolt action was a bolt action.  Back in the 20th century.  Now that I'm soooo much older and wiser I notice a few more things, but at this point it means I have more questions than answers.

So I'd like to know how certain models compare.

One thing I noticed was different was that standard bolt actions have two lugs and the ones that have more (ie 3 or three rows of them) brag about it.  Yet the Savage and Remington 700 rifles, which boast high accuracy, have only two lugs.  So:
a.) Does the number of lugs and thus the angle of bolt throw affect accuracy (as one element among any, of course), or is it more a matter of convenience?  Or even less convenient in some ways, and ultimately becomes only a matter of preference?
b.) So far I know of Rem 710, Browning A-Bolt, Sako 75, and Weatherby MkV that have 60 degree bolt throws.  Any others, or any with even smaller angles and more lugs?

Another thing - Bolt lugs, head, and body, and extractors.  Remingtons have the lugs, head, and body integrated, and have a button extractor like an AR-15.  So do the Weatherby Vanguards.  Any relation?  The Winchester M70 looks a lot like my Mauser.  And how about my Mosin Nagant and Savage 111, any notable similarities or differences to the 98 Mauser?  Or between the 98 and other Mausers?  Or the 1914/17 Enfield?  (I'm familiar with the drastic differences with the SMLE.)  I looked at a Mossgerg 100 ATR today and it had a movable bolt head but a button extractor too.  Is this better or worse than Remington's integrated system?

Ok, so loads of random questions that would drive me up the wall if asked.  But I'd sure like to know what bolt action features are of note and why people choose them or not.

Thanks all!

[Vern Humphrey]

One thing I noticed was different was that standard bolt actions have two lugs and the ones that have more (ie 3 or three rows of them) brag about it.  Yet the Savage and Remington 700 rifles, which boast high accuracy, have only two lugs.  So:
a.) Does the number of lugs and thus the angle of bolt throw affect accuracy (as one element among any, of course), or is it more a matter of convenience?  Or even less convenient in some ways, and ultimately becomes only a matter of preference?

One thing that affects accuracy is the "squareness" of the action.  Both lugs must bear evenly on their seats.  The more lugs you have, the more difficult it is to get them all to bear evenly.

b.) So far I know of Rem 710, Browning A-Bolt, Sako 75, and Weatherby MkV that have 60 degree bolt throws.  Any others, or any with even smaller angles and more lugs?

There are always tradeoffs.  The action of unlocking the bolt also cocks the action (in most bolt actions) and also cams the case out of the chamber.  The shorter the bolt lift, the more work you must do to lift it.  A longer bolt lift tends to spread out the work and make it easier to cock and cam the case out.

Another thing - Bolt lugs, head, and body, and extractors.  Remingtons have the lugs, head, and body integrated, and have a button extractor like an AR-15.  So do the Weatherby Vanguards.  Any relation?  The Winchester M70 looks a lot like my Mauser.  And how about my Mosin Nagant and Savage 111, any notable similarities or differences to the 98 Mauser?  Or between the 98 and other Mausers?  Or the 1914/17 Enfield?  (I'm familiar with the drastic differences with the SMLE.)  I looked at a Mossgerg 100 ATR today and it had a movable bolt head but a button extractor too.  Is this better or worse than Remington's integrated system?

There's more than one way to skin a cat -- and gun designers have tried them all.  The primary advantage to having separate bolt heads (like the Savage) is ease of manufacturing.  You basically make the same rifle for all cartridges, and have to change only a few parts to go from one cartridge to another.

Also, you can headspace more easily if you have a separate bolt head -- that's one attribute of the Lee Enfield

[Ramrod]

Well here is my :money: . Paul Mauser perfected the bolt action design in 1898. (Excepting modifications for scope mounting, of course. This was not a consideration at the time). All of the so called "improvements" since then have only been tradeoffs, or compromises, between strength, accurracy, reliability, and cost. With cost usually the biggest factor.

[Vern Humphrey]

Well here is my :money: . Paul Mauser perfected the bolt action design in 1898. (Excepting modifications for scope mounting, of course. This was not a consideration at the time). All of the so called "improvements" since then have only been tradeoffs, or compromises, between strength, accurracy, reliability, and cost. With cost usually the biggest factor.

Mauser invented it, Winchester perfected it (in the pre-64 Model 70) :grin:

[BattleRifleG3]

b.) So far I know of Rem 710, Browning A-Bolt, Sako 75, and Weatherby MkV that have 60 degree bolt throws.  Any others, or any with even smaller angles and more lugs?

There are always tradeoffs.  The action of unlocking the bolt also cocks the action (in most bolt actions) and also cams the case out of the chamber.  The shorter the bolt lift, the more work you must do to lift it.  A longer bolt lift tends to spread out the work and make it easier to cock and cam the case out.

Ah yes, I actually thought about that after posting.  I'm used to semis, pumps, and leverguns that cock while cycling, not locking.

Another thing - Bolt lugs, head, and body, and extractors.  Remingtons have the lugs, head, and body integrated, and have a button extractor like an AR-15.  So do the Weatherby Vanguards.  Any relation?  The Winchester M70 looks a lot like my Mauser.  And how about my Mosin Nagant and Savage 111, any notable similarities or differences to the 98 Mauser?  Or between the 98 and other Mausers?  Or the 1914/17 Enfield?  (I'm familiar with the drastic differences with the SMLE.)  I looked at a Mossgerg 100 ATR today and it had a movable bolt head but a button extractor too.  Is this better or worse than Remington's integrated system?

There's more than one way to skin a cat -- and gun designers have tried them all.  The primary advantage to having separate bolt heads (like the Savage) is ease of manufacturing.  You basically make the same rifle for all cartridges, and have to change only a few parts to go from one cartridge to another.

You know, I actually thought about that too when trying to design a rifle.

That's some great info!  Answers a lot of questions and hypotheses that I've been mulling around.

One thing I was wondering was who makes each type?  Ie anyone else use the same type of bolt setup as Remington and Howa/Weatherby, and are they related at all?  Sure do look like it.

[Vern Humphrey]

One thing I was wondering was who makes each type?  Ie anyone else use the same type of bolt setup as Remington and Howa/Weatherby, and are they related at all?  Sure do look like it.

Remingtons, Savages and Winchesters are made in the US -- three different approaches to making a bolt action.  Weatherbys have been made in many different countries, including Japan, where the Howa is made -- so there may be a connection there.

[BattleRifleG3]

Weatherby Vanguards ARE by Howa.

But they look like a Rem 700.

[Slamfire]

The only thing I have against the button ejectors is they throw the brass out no matter how slowly you open the bolt. That means you have to catch it or maybe lose it. It is a pain when  shooting from a bench or practicing positions.
Another point the rear lug action bolts compress under the stress of firing and the brass grows, something that doesn't happen with the front lug arrangement.
If you are designing rifle actions, pay strict attention to where escaping gas goes if a case ruptures. The two best treatments I've seen were the Remington 788 which kept it in the firing chamber, except for a little that traveled down the firing pin, and was blocked from the shooters face at the end of the bolt sleeve. The other is the Type 38 Arisaka which vents most of it out through the receiver ring, and blocks off the end of the bolt sleeve, it does vent some into the magazine and some out the left rail. That latter don't matter much unless you're a left handed shooter.  :wink:

[BattleRifleG3]

Hmm, I actually like positive ejection at any speed when it's a human operating the action.  So to each his own.

[Ramrod]

BattleRifleG3, I'm old, and don't have a lot of education, but it seems from your posts that you would be better served to study modern automatic weapons. It is a simple matter to shut off the gas, and make a straight pull bolt action from one. It is a common wildcatter's modification to the old WWII M1 carbine.
The 90 degree, two lug, front locking bolt, (ie. Mauser action) survived for over 100 years in spite of folks trying to "improve" it. :lol:

[Vern Humphrey]

Hmm, I actually like positive ejection at any speed when it's a human operating the action.  So to each his own.

One advanage of Winchester/Mauser ejection is that it is self-timing.  It is possible to over-run a spring-loaded ejector when working the bolt rapidly -- there was a long analysis of dangerous game rifles posted on THR by an African game official.

[BattleRifleG3]

Hmm, good observation on the timing.  I tend to be strong on the reloading so I may have to consider that.  I don't currently have a button ejecting rifle.

Regarding autoloaders, I'm well familiar.  I'm starting to take a stronger liking to bolt guns these days after covering many of the bases regarding autoloaders.  Built a few, have all the major calibers, most of the standard action types...

I've always had a strong spot in my heart for bolt actions though, and being more milsurp familiar, I'm taking a harder look at the old and new.

[Vern Humphrey]

I have to admit to being a bolt-gun man.  I have an M1 and a Winchester 94, plus a couple of falling-block Stevens .22s, but everything else is bolt action.  I'm partial to the Winchester Model 70 and the Springfield -- and I note in the criticisms of rifles used for dangerous game that I referred to earlier, the Model 70 came out ahead of all other rifles mentioned.

[Slamfire]

Hmm, I actually like positive ejection at any speed when it's a human operating the action.  So to each his own.

I kinda like easin' the bolt back and pickin' the empty case outa the action, when I'm shootin' at paper. I usually ain't tryin' to get in another shoot if it don't fall right down, I don't figure it's gonna run off.  :wink:

[BattleRifleG3]

Looked over a lot of guns at Gander mountain, and it seems practically everything has a button ejector.  Does anyone make something nowadays WITHOUT a button ejector?  I'll have to check my Savage 111 again, I thought it wasn't but the 111 at Gander was.  Even the Win M70s I saw had button ejectors.

[Vern Humphrey]

Looked over a lot of guns at Gander mountain, and it seems practically everything has a button ejector.  Does anyone make something nowadays WITHOUT a button ejector?  I'll have to check my Savage 111 again, I thought it wasn't but the 111 at Gander was.  Even the Win M70s I saw had button ejectors.

You must be looking at post-64 push feed Model 70s.  The Model 70 Classics have a blade ejector.