Author Topic: New Kimber Montana - mixed review UPDATE (Read 3836 times)

Zachary · « **on:** April 28, 2005, 05:42:34 AM »

I ordered a NIB Kimber 8400 Montana (Stainless Synthetic) in .300WSM on July 2003, yes almost 2 years ago, and just received it from my Kimber dealer in Louisiana (who subsequently transferred it to an FFL holder here in Miami). I knew back in July of 03 that the Montanas were not going to be in production until the end of that year, but still, 2 years? Kimber is not to blame for this, but rather the dealer who apparently dropped the ball (despite my sending, and they cashing, my deposit checks on the gun order). Anyhow, I finally received my gun yesterday and, as your moderator on this forum, I have noticed that there are seemingly a lot of topics and questions about Kimbers lately, so I would like to give you my initial review of the gun, of which I have mixed results.

The gun is, as intended, lightweight. This is due, in part, to the slim Kevlar-reinforced synthetic stock, thin barrel, and smaller action. Let me tell you, overall fit and finish is excellent, perhaps even perfect. Did I say even perfect? Yes. I have purchased many brands of rifles, and Tikkas and Sakos exhibited the best overall fit and finish. (I have not owned any Weatherby Mark Vs, but I can say that they too also have extremely high overall fit and finish as well.) Kimbers are semi-production rifles, meaning that there are a lot of hands that go into the creation of these fine rifles. As such, Kimber has more quality control, and the guns show it. As a result, I now have to say that Kimbers fit and finish is better than Tikkas and tied with, or probably better than, Sakos.

The gun does have one significant problem, however. The Kimbers have a mauser-type action, meaning that they are similar to the Winchester M70s (of which I own quite a few). My M70s have a smooth action. Not as smooth as my Tikkas, but smooth nonetheless. When working the bolt on my Kimber, I expected it to be at least as smooth as my production Winchester M70s. I have heard many Kimber owners state that these guns are tight and that the action will loosen up over time. Well, the problem that I have with my Kimber is much different.

The bolt came in its own sealed plastic bag, surrounded by bubble wrap, and encased in its own triangular shaped box impressive indeed. However, when I tried to work the bolt, it would essentially stop about half-way, thus requiring noticeably more force to pull it back and forward. In addition, although I did not load any ammo, it was difficult turning the bolt either way too. I knew something was wrong as soon as I worked the action, and even the FFL holder was embarrassed for me when he tried it too. Spending $1,000+ on a NIB Kimber and having this kind of problem?

Upon closer inspection of the gun, I noticed what the problem was. The right side strip of metal of the bolt, which the manual states is part #15 and called the extractor, is defective. It is warped with a bulge that causes the bolt to seemingly stop when you pull the bolt back about halfway. I took a close-up picture of the bolt in the action and it is clearly visible. Look at the top portion of the extractor and you will notice the warp. There are spaces on the left and right, but the middle portion touches the receiver.

I have never had such a problem with any of my Winchesters, and they cost half the price of Kimbers. Doesnt Kimber test fire each rifle before it gets shipped? If so, then, even at the last minute, someone should have experienced this problem. And I honestly do not believe that this problem happened while in transit, because it was packaged very well surely much better than any of my Winchesters.

Kimber prides itself on quality and, to be fair, with the exception of the bolt, the overall quality and fit and finish of the rifle is almost second to none. Still, I cant believe that this happened and I would like to know why.

Kimber also prides itself on their customer service. I have never sent any gun or gun part back to any gun manufacturer for any reason, and it seems strange that I would have to do so with a Kimber rifle. Still, I have no choice but to send the bolt back to Kimber immediately and hope that they repair or replace the bolt quickly. I do not want to take any chances firing the gun with this problem because there might be other problems associated with this problem.

I will let you guys know what happens as soon as someone at Kimber contacts me.

Zachary

THERE IS AN UPDATE BELOW IN RED.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2005, 06:28:35 AM »

Thanks for sharing!

Tim

Zachary · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2005, 06:34:14 AM »

And thanks again for helping me on how to post pics. It came out great.

So have any of you out there had any problems with either you Kimbers or Kimber customer service?

Zachary

HuntingGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2005, 10:22:50 AM »

Zachary,

How odd!!!! You would think, especially at 1,000.00 Kimber would have noticed the defect. I agree, these guns are near perfect - Just havent seen anything like that. I doubt very much that Kimber would have ANY problem replacing the bolt for you. Also I am sure you can expect a good explanation. Their customer service is great from what I have noticed with contact with them thus far. I have yet to purchase my Montana (Early June), but they are mighty fine rifles. I am sure they will back the warranty in a timely matter. I would give them a heads up on the phone before you send it in, along with a letter describing everything.

Don't let this sway you one way or another on the gun, just see what Kimber has to say. Don't shoot it, and send the bold back.

Keep us updated, thanks for the heads up

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2005, 12:14:18 PM »

No personal experience here-----but Kimber customer service has been touted as being very poor on the various gun forums. Mainly for the .45 pistols---which do seem inferior to my eyes----esp for a grand.

But the rifles have seemed first rate.

Hopefully its just internet hype and this all works out for you in a timely manner.

Zachary · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2005, 12:23:06 PM »

Well, I sent the bolt and a letter via overnight delivery - Kimber will receive it tomorrow.

I would think that Kimber will probably replace just the extractor. Then again, given that the extractor was warped, I don't know if any of the other connected pieces are also affected.

As stated, I sent the bolt right away via overnight delivery. Hopefully that should give Kimber an idea of how serious I take this issue. As such, I hope that they fix this problem in a timely manner.

I sure am glad that I didn't shoot the gun. You never know what could have happened.

Zachary

HuntingGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2005, 03:14:55 PM »

Give them a call tomorrow afternoon and fill us in on what action will be taken on their end.

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2005, 03:44:29 PM »

I will be traveling out of town tomorrow and will not return until Monday. Still, I sent them a letter explaining everything so I want to see how they will respond (and how long it will take them to respond) to my letter first. If it takes a long time to respond, then I will give them a call.

I'm hopeful that Kimber's customer service will be prompt and effecicent.

Zachary

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2005, 04:22:51 PM »

Unless I am mistaken, and I don't think I am, your gun isn't made by Kimber at all. It is a Montana Rifle Co. (or is it Montana Rifle Works, I forget all the time) gun made for Kimber. Its the same gun as the new CZ Model 3. As I posted in the Custom forum, I do have a friend that builds customs on their actions and I've never heard a bad word about them.

I wish Kimber was back here in Oregon, they made some wonderful rifles in those days.

Good luck

RR

Zachary · « **Reply #9 on:** April 28, 2005, 04:40:19 PM »

I honestly don't know. But I do know this...The rifle I bought has the name Kimber stamped on it. As such, I'm going to Kimber to resolve this product, regardless of whoever actually made the rifle.

You raise an excellent point, and I thought that Kimber itself made their rifles. I'm going to ask that question to Kimber soon and will confirm or deny same.

If it is true, then it kinda sounds like a Weatherby/Howa relationship.

Zachary

Ramrod · « **Reply #10 on:** April 29, 2005, 11:02:24 AM »

They will probably replace the extractor. This problem is not unheard of with Mauser type actions. On a $1000. rifle it should have been noticed before shipment. I just recently polished the extractor on my Mauser. It didn't rub hard, but some dummy blued it, and it looked like crap where the blue was rubbed off by the receiver.

vernonp · « **Reply #11 on:** April 29, 2005, 01:50:44 PM »

I can not see how the rifle left the manufacturing site in that condition. If it was not test fired did'nt someone work the bolt somewhere along the way. That is strange. I do believe Kimber will take care of it pronto though.-Good luck--vernonp

TScottO · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2005, 06:58:59 PM »

Kimber Mfg's every component of their rifle in house.... If they don't their custom shop lied to me... If this is not the case, worse things have happened I reckon.

Take Care,
Scott

Headache · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:52:22 AM »

What you are seeing is a pre-load bend in the spring area of the extractor. This is required on Mauser style extractors to obtain the proper amount of pinch to hold the cartridge to the bolt face to insure ejection. If you do not have this pre-load you would probably get dropped shells. The cartridge may drop down and off of the bolt face before coming in contact with the ejector.

This one is not defective and does not create an unsafe condition, the bend might be justs a little sharp.

Kimber manufactures all components in house except for springs and sheet metal parts.

Headache

Zachary · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2005, 05:04:17 AM »

Are you saying that the picture that I posted is what it is supposed to look like? My Winchester M70s are also Mauser style, but none of them look bad like my Kimber. In fact, the actions on all my M70s are very smooth and function perfectly. The action on my Kimber, however, is miles away from my Winchesters - which cost half the price.

Zachary

Headache · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2005, 09:41:46 AM »

Zachary,

No, it is not supposed to look like that. It should be arched without any sharp bends. Yours looks to be bent a little too sharp. This may also be the reason for the stiffer bolt.

The Winchester M70 pinch is also adjusted the same way.

Contact Kimber and send it back for repair.

Have a good day,
Headache

Zachary · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2005, 12:32:22 PM »

I sent the bolt, and a detailed letter, to Kimber, which they received overnight mail last Friday. I don't expect them to give me a call today (the next business day), but I do hope that I hear from them soon.

Cross your fingers for me.

Zachary

Zachary · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2005, 11:47:51 AM »

Well guys, I wanted to let you know that I got a call from Kimber today...and it was the most pleasant conversation I have ever had with any gun manufacturer (or actually any manufacturer).

It turns out that our member named Headache works with Kimber. He called me early this morning while I was at the courthouse getting ready to attend a hearing with the judge, but I did manage to speak to him for about 20 minutes or so. Headache also happened to be one of the cheif designers of the M70 action with Winchester for 12 years, so he had a lot of experience with the Mauser actions when he joined Kimber.

First off, let me tell you guys about the bolt. Kimber (Headache) said that the Ejector ring was a bit oversized and the person who installed the ring onto the ejector did not install it as perfectly as she could have. As a result, a pressure point was created which apparently caused the ejector to bend. Kimber said that gun was still functional (which it was - although not smooth) but that this has been redesigned and should not be a problem on current/future models.

Keep in mind that Kimber received my bolt just this Friday via overnight mail, and I got a call just this morning. That means that I got a call within 3 business days - that's pretty increadible. In fact, Headache said that Kimber's policy is actually to have a turnaround time of about 1 week! Can you guys believe that? Wow, how's that for customer service.

I wish I could have spoken with Headache longer, but I had to attend my hearing, but I just can't say enough about my experience with Kimber. I told Headache that, with the exception of the bolt, the quality of the rifle is actually better than both Tikka and Sako. Yes, you guys heard me right, I said better than both Tikka and Sako. And you guys know how highly I regard Tikkas and Sakos.

We also discussed the price of Kimber rifles. When you take a look at the prices of new Remington rifles and compare them with the price of Kimbers, you will see that the Kimbers are only about $200 to $300 more, yet you get twice the gun, and three times the customer service. I own many Remington rifles, and I have never had any problems with them, but I have heard many complaints from many of our members and guests about Remington's rifles and their quality. Again, I don't have any such problems, but alot of you do. To those who do, you just can't beat Kimber's customer service - PERIOD!

I can't wait to get my bolt back. Headache said that he personally worked it on a .325 Montana with some dummy rounds and it worked great.

I'll let you guys know when I receive the bolt, which should be very soon. In the meantime, I just wanted all of you to know that I am very happy with Kimber's customer service and can personally recommend Kimber to anyone interested in a semi-production high quality rifle!

Zachary

Carl l. · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2005, 01:42:47 PM »

Zackary, I knew everything would work out ok. It don't hurt to be a lawyer either. Let us know how this Kimber shoots when you get set up. Like I said, if I was going to get another gun it would be a Kimber. Carl L.

Zachary · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2005, 02:23:16 PM »

I don't think it has anything to do with my being an attorney because when I sent Kimber my letter, I didn't put it on my law firm letterhead.

I did that on purpose because I wanted to see how Kimber would treat me as a regular customer, and it turns out that they treated me better than a King!

Zachary

HuntingGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2005, 03:46:10 PM »

WOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats! Sounds like Headache was a good help

Let us know when you get the bolt. Can't beat Kimber!

Zachary · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2005, 10:55:47 AM »

Well, guess what? I just received my bolt back today! Kimber's turn around time is about a week....that's lightning fast! :-D

I took a close look at the bolt before I inserted it into the action and the extractor is straight and now the action is much smoother than before. Kimber's customer service just leaves me speechless.

For some reason I was not able to focus the picture very well this time, but you should still get a good idea of how straight the extractor is now.

As I have said before, I have never had any problems with any of my rifles - Remington, Winchester, Tikka, Sako, or Browning. I guess having a problem was inevitable, and I was surprised that it happened with the Kimber. Still, I have heard from many of you about your problems with Remingtons and other brands. For those of you whom have had such problems consider that the Kimber is twice the gun and their customer service is much, much better. Think about it....have any of you had your rifle problems fixed by the manufacturer in a week? :eek:

Thanks again Headache!

Zachary[/img]

Headache · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2005, 11:18:37 AM »

Zachary,

Glad to be of help to you. Have a great time shooting. Keep me informed on your progress. Actually I will see it here.

Have a great day,

Headache

Grubbs · « **Reply #23 on:** May 11, 2005, 04:07:29 AM »

Like Zachary, I am an admitted huge Sako/Tikka fan, but my hat's off to Kimber for the service they gave you. Speaks pretty highly of them in this day and age of "self service" service.

Zachary · « **Reply #24 on:** May 16, 2005, 02:21:32 AM »

UPDATE.

When I got the bolt back and inserted it in the action it was much, much smoother. I was happy and put it on my gun rack. However, I picked up the rifle yesterday noticed another problem - and this one is potentially big.

When I mounted the rifle to my shoulder quickly yesterday I noticed a noise. I wasn't sure where it came from, so I did it again. It turned out that it was in the bolt action area. I shook the rifle a bit and sure enough that was the problem.

Then I put the safety in the middle position, shook the rifle some more, and the noise was louder.

Then I put the safety all the way back in the safe position where you cannot turn the bolt, and it was the loudest, and I mean loud - rattled like heck. While in this position, it was clearly visible that the bolt had excessive movement in the receiver! You can't even walk with the rifle in the field with the safety engaged because it rattles so much I'm sure that game will hear it 100 yards away!

I am so heart broken about this rifle.

First the bolt and now this. As I said, with the exception of the bolt (and now and/or action) the fit and finish is near perfect. However, it looks like I got a lemon. How can this happen on a $1,000 semi-production rifle?

I have a Leupold VX-III scope 3.5x-10x-40mm that I bought from Jon at the Optic Zone (one of our sponsors) and the scope is being shipped on its way to me, and now I have to send the entire rifle back to Kimber.

Even a person who doesn't own a Mauser action knows that the bolt should not rattle in the action, and should not rattle progressively worse as you put the gun in full safety - the most important, and most frequently used, position.

Last time I sent the bolt back I spent about $17 for delivery overnight. Now God only knows how much I am going to have to spend to send the entire rifle, and lockable rifle case, to Kimber. Plus, there is the aggrevation of my time.

I have sent a PM to Headache (one of Kimber's head people) so I hope that he can take care of this problem for me because I am just not a happy camper right now. My experience with Kimber's customer service was A++ last time, so I trust it will be the same this time.

Zachary

Graybeard · « **Reply #25 on:** May 16, 2005, 06:03:24 AM »

I suggest you do as I did with Taurus when I was having so much trouble from them. DEMAND they pay the return shipping to get it back to them. Ask for a FEDEX call tag so Kimber pays the expense of shipping it back.

Any company charging what they do for a new gun that just plain isn't right from the get go should be returned at the manufacturer's expense NOT at the customer's expense.

I had been thinking on the idea of getting a Kimber myself, perhaps a couple of them but your experience with this one so far makes me wonder. As I recall a degradation of quality is what killed the company once before. Wonder if they are headed that way again.

Headache · « **Reply #26 on:** May 16, 2005, 07:28:41 AM »

Zachary,

It sounds as though you are shaking it around empty. The Kimber rifles are designed with no interferences to insure the smooth operation of the bolt system. Many of the other rifle out there have something impinging on the system when they are empty. In most cases it is usually the follower.

If you load the rifle you will see that it will not rattle. The ammo takes up the clearances.

Give this a try and let me know how you made out.

Headache

Zachary · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2005, 10:11:03 AM »

I just got off the phone with Headache at Kimber. His email gives us the jist of why the gun is acting the way it is, but in our telephone conversation he explained everything to me.

Headache told me that there were recent redesigns in the Kimber action. Generally, there are now no interferences whatsoever with the bolt. Specifically, the diameter of the extractor rings have been reduced in size, and also there is a 2/1000th inch clearance in the receiver where the bolt goes in. This I have noticed - there is a small gap and this is the clearance Headache was talking about. Also, there is nothing else to interfere with the bolt while you work it. As such, there is some play and thus some rattling noise when you shake it or move it quickly. Bottom line is that the newer Kimber are designed that way. Why was the Kimber redesigned to do this? Headache explained that this was one way to ensure that the bolt worked more smoothly.

Then I asked Headache if now I was supposed to walk around with a noisy, rattling action, and he said no. Specifically, when a cartridge is loaded in the magazine, the force from the spring in the magazine causes the cartridge to put pressure along the bottom of the bolt. When this happens, Headache said that the rattling and noise go away 100%. If you have no ammo in the magazine but have one in the chamber, then the noise and rattling goes away about 75%.

I told Headache that I always hear about Kimber owners telling me that Kimber rifles are "tight," and he said that they used to be "tight" because there were interferences built in that caused the bolt to work tight. As such, the only way to have reduced the tight action was by working it over a period of time. Headache said that Kimber received a lot of complaints about their rifles being tight, so they took out all of the interferences to make the action smooth - which it is, but now rattles unless you have ammo either in the magazine and/or the chamber.

I just ordered some .300WSM ammo from Midway USA to try it out. I got a box of Federal Premium 180 grain Barnes TSX and a box of Federal Premium 180 grain Nosler Accubond. The scope is on its way, so all I need to do now is get some rings.

So then, it turns out that my Kimber is not defective. Like I told Headache, I understand that this new redesign eliminates the "tight" characteristic, but I don't know how many people will like the new design. If the gun is going to be quiet with ammo in the chamber just like Headache says (which I believe him) then I don't necessarily have a problem with it, especially given that the fit and finish of the rifle is just spectacular. Now, we have to see how the gun's accuracy tests out. Like I said, I bought 2 different boxes of ammo. I'm sure, or at least hopeful, that one of the loads will produce good accuracy (which for me is 1MOA). I know that this rifle is light and light rifles generally are not as accurate as heavier rifles, but I'm really not going to be happy unless I get 1MOA. And speaking of ammo, I have heard conflicting reports about the Accubond - they are accurate in some rifles, yet horrible in others. That's true of any rifle with any ammo, but it seems to be especially true of the Accubond. Truth be told, the same thing can be said for the Barnes X, but the newer TSX is supposed to have better general accuracy because of the three rings. We'll see.

As soon as I get the ammo, I'l let you guys know what happens with the rattling noise.

Zachary

longwinters · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2005, 11:06:14 AM »

Zackary,

Are your Tikka and Sako rifle actions as smooth as the Kimber?

Long

Zachary · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2005, 11:36:04 AM »

Good question. I would say that the Kimber is about as smooth as the Sako, with the Sako having an edge. Keep in mind that, since there is a small gap in the Kimber, it tends to make somewhat of a harsh metal to metal noise then you pull it back and forth. The Sako, on the other hand, is "quieter."

However, the Tikka (which actually costs about half of what the Sako does) actually is smoother than the Sako, and just as quiet. With all my Tikkas, you can lift the bolt with your pinky finger with very little effort. The Kimber requires noticeably more effort. I would say the Sako requires about the same amount of effort as well.

I should also note that, with regard to how quiet an action is, my Winchester mauser actions are a tad bit quieter than my newly redesigned Kimber - I can't compare to the older Kimbers that were tighter. I do want to say that on one of my M70 mauser actions (the .375H&H to be exact) I had the bolt and action polished and BOY WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT! Not only is the action silky smooth, but all the harsh metal to metal sound is gone and it even SOUNDS SMOOTH. In fact, my customized .375H&H is actually the smoothest and quietest action I own. As such, I'm sure that my Kimber rifle could similarly be more quieter and smoother if I had a gunsmith do the same work on it.

Zachary