Reloading the 7,62x25

[1911crazy]

I just getting into reloading the 7,62x25 and i picked up some 85gr JHP's. I have seen the different loads vary from 1,900fps to 1,200fps with the 7,62x25 round.  Of course the higher loads are for the CZ52 which is the stronger of the 7,62x25 pistols.  I would like to pick and use a load thats safe for any Tokarev too besides the CZ52 too but yet hot enough for the hollow point to expand and work well too.  Does anyone have a load for the 85gr JHP bullet thats safe in any of the two pistols?  I mainly use Unique powder in all my handguns so i would like to stay with it in the 7,62x25's too.  Whats the highest powder load and FPS you have shot out of your Tokarev?  Have you been close to 1,700fps?           BigBill

Can you get close to magnum performance out of the 7,62x25 round safely in the older pistols?

I wonder why no one has manufactured the 7,62x25 round in a new modern handgun?  It could be pumped up to 1,900fps very safely in a modern handgun and maybe even hit 2,000fps and that would be very impressive as a bad guy stopper too.  I know the 357SIG is a close twin to the 7,62x25 but why do you think the 7,62x25 fell by the way side?

[Mikey]

Yo BigBill - I think the 7.62x25 fell by the wayside simply because it is a communist cartridge and the only workable handguns made for that round were either commie guns or the older european guns like the CZ.

I really wish someone (a gun maker) in the US would upgrade the Tok design for the American market - it is so simple and inexpensive.  Better sights, a slightly redesigned grip, larger mag release button, re-designed safety, etc., would really help that old warhorse.  

One of the posters - Krochus, uses 6.5 grn of Unique under a 71 gn 32 acp bullet for an easy shooting 1550'/sec load or 6.0 grns of Unique under an 85 gn load for 1500'/sec from both his Tok and his CZ.  Heck, I used to shoot 71-77 gn 32 acp slugs from my 30 Luger for a pretty fast moving, flat shooting fun load - I can just imagine how those bullets woruld work in the Tok.  

As for 'magnumizing' that cartridge - BigBill, The 30 Mauser/7.62x25mm round is the original magnum pistol cartridge.  It was faster than any other pistol round produced for a semi-auto until the 357 Sig came along.  You really don't need to magnumize it any more than it is.  And, with an accurate, quality hollowpoint, it should be all the more effective.  I think the higher velocities some folks have seen reported might be from a longer barrelled sub gun or carbine, not a pistol.  I think I'm going to look at Ron Reed's offerings in that cartridge and see how they shoot in my Tok.  

I like that Tokarev cartridge.  I first encountered it, as a working cartridge, in Vietnam.  It works, all by its lonesome.  There may be some experts who will tellya that it's obsolete or somehow underpowered and someone can always find a story or two about hits that didn't take the bad guys down but that has not been my experience with that cartridge. I carry my Tok and will continue to do so.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[Robert]

Just a note...Last year Accurate Powder released their 'revised' manual.  The revised manual basically was to 'Americanize' many of the loads listed.  The data in the old book was much higher than any of the other manuals.  The 7.62x25 was apparently one of the most drastic changes.  I have not seen the new rvised data yet.....but I am sure it would be on their website.  The old book listed the 85 gr Sierra Bullet at 1972 fps.  I load mine slightly less than that, but I don't use those loads for plinking.  The Sellior&Bellot ammo at around 1600(+-) works just fine for target shooting.  
  At first I was using both the 90 gr XTP hollowpoint, and the 85 gr roundnose for loads for hunting-back-up/self defence loads...but I don't see how the XTP would have that much difference for self-defence at close range....so now I am sticking to the roundnose Sierra Softpoint.

[Robert]

Just another thought.  If you will look through some manuals....you will never see ANY published data suggesting a 32 caliber bullet /7.65 caliber for either 7.62x25, 30 Luger or 30 Mauser.  These bullets average .312-.315 in diameter.  I WOULD NEVER USE THESE BULLETS with any of the data available for CZ-52...less yet try these oversized bullets in a weaker Tokerev.  The data for Tok's usually shows a cartridge drawing with a bullet that is .309 diameter...however...they go on to list bullets for the data and ALL of the bullets are American made .308s.  Even the Sellier & Bellot ammo that is loaded to 1600 fps from the Czech Republic is using .308 bullets.

[Reed1911]

Robert makes a good point, but I'd like to expand on it.

Many barrels for both the CZ-52 and TT-33 will be found with .310-.312" bores. If you slug your bore you find that that is the case in your pistol. If your bore is that size, it is safe to use STARTING data for the 7.62x25 to work up your loads. In the case that you are using Starline brass however, you will need to either turn the necks or ream it out to fit the larger bullets else wise even with a larger bore the chamber may not be big enough to handle the enlarged neck area and build too much pressure before it releases the bullet.

As for bullet selection/ammunition selection we have .308" bullets in everything from the 60g XTP and GDHP up to 110g the same in ammunition. We sell the bullets by them self, or if you have .32 cal bullets you'd like sized down we would be happy to do it for you. For the really adventurous, you can buy sizing equipment and sizing dies made for jacketed bullets, you'll just need to size them down .002" at a time. So for standard .32 cal bullets you'll need a .310" and a .308" die.  Carbide is the best and easiest but also the most expensive, steel works but it can be a pain even with good lubricant.

[1911crazy]

Mikey;  I think the 7,62x25 is faster than the 357sig in the smaller lighter bullets.  With any hollow point bullet the speed is the key to it being a good stopper.   I wish they made a 7,62x25 in a modern CZ75??  BigBill

[Kivaari]

..just curious why and how we KNOW that the CZ52 is so much stronger than , say, the Tok or whatever..?

Since they are both com bloc weapons with no heritage in these States, has there been some scientific analysis or something?

[Robert]

It has been told to me numerous times that Toks can and WILL blow up with hot CZ loads.  I don't have any actuall experience with the Toks however.

[Reed1911]

I think it has more to do with the way the pistol operates. The CZ-52 is truly a delayed blowback (i.e. cam and rollers) When the pressure begins to get too high the rollers bite harder into the recess and will either buldge the side or knock the sideplate completely off causing a jammed pistol. Needless to say all the excess presure is either directed down the bore or out the side. An overpressure event in the Tok's tend to simply overcome the lock and open while there is still pressure in the chamber/bbl. Excess pressure is then directed either upward or into the mag well.
That being said I can attest to the strength of the CZ-52 with higher than normal pressures. I have not attempted this with a Tok. All was done in controlled enviroments and I DO NOT SUGGEST anyone try it. While I feel the design is much safer, I don't advocate that the very serious chance of someone getting hurt is reduced by any means, since things always happen.

[Mikey]

When I first got my Tok there was simply no 7.62x25mm to be had, unless you had brought back a handfull from SE Asia.  I used Fiochhi 30 Mausers and my Tok worked fine.  When surplus ammo first became available it was the Chinese copper washed steel cased stuff - they made it in only one flavor, for both Toks and PPshs.  I would expect the higher velocities were realized from the longer PPsh barrels.  Anyhow, the stuff worked fine in my Tok.  The only problem was the hard primers and that's when I realized it was probably sub-gun stuff.  Same with some of the eastern bloc ammo that became available shortly after.  Finally, when S&B started selling the correct ammo I found it totally reliable and use it now.  

My Tok also came with a 38 Super barrel.  With factory Winchester or Reminton 38 Super loads she worked just fine.  When I hotrodded my 38 Supers, as I do for my 1911s, the Tok would lock back on every round and I knew then that heavy 38 Supers and the 9x23 Winchester rounds were too heavy for the Tok action.  

All in all though, with hundreds of sub-gun ammo through the Tok, she continues to function with 100% reliability.  She is loose as a goose on bran mash but she shoots to poa with the S&B at 25 yds and is quite accurate.  

This being said, I avoid using sub-gun ammo, the Chinese surplus or com bloc surplus just to be on the safer side.  JMO.  Mikey.

[Robert]

Just for fun....this is a little off-topic, but I thought some of you guys would get a kick out of these 7.62x25 cartridges loaded with 180 gr Hornadies, and 180 gr roundnose and 200 gr spire-point cast bullets.  No....these are not for my CZ, they are for a 30-06 chamber adapter that I have been experimenting with.  I also tried cutting down .223 brass to make brass with a longer neck to hold these big bullets better, but....I need to ream out the throat of the chamber adapter to accomodate the longer brass, or just order another one to meet my specs.  Anyway....sure is a lot of fun.  Oh yeah....I forgot to mention...I am using ordinary 'Whisper' data that is right around 1600 fps.  This is a great 'Urban Deer' setup.    
    I cant get the pic to work....just click this link....    http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/album_pic.php?pic_id=954

[Mikey]

Robert - that does sound like a lot of fun.  I picked up a chamber adapter for my 06 in the 7.62x25mm caliber and have had fun playing with 'store bought loadings'.  I haven't yet reloaded any heavy bullets but am getting around to it.

BTW, I think there is a cartridge called the 7.62 or 30 Whisper - which is the Tok/CZ round loaded with a heavy bullet and shot from a barrel with a special twist to get them to stabalize.  The same folk also took the 7.65 Luger cartridge, did the same thing with ehavy bullets and call it the 7.65 Whisper, er something.  

I was getting some decent groups at 25 yds with my adapter and S&B ammo.  I think I'll see what it can do with some heavier cast slugs.  

Yep, this is a good, ummmm, 'urban' setup (LOL).  Mikey.

[Robert]

Yeah Mike....the cool thing about those adapters are that they are 'free-bore' all the way through the adapter and the rate of twist for 30-06 is already fast enough to stabilize big bullets.  Cool.
  ....sorry to be off topic guys.

[Mikey]

Robert - I got into the link that showed your 7.62x25mm heavy loads and wow, one thing ya know for sure is that they would be really tough to try and feed through a Tok (LOLOLOL).  

When you seat your bullets, are they into the case just far enough for the case to hold the bullet?  I had thought about seating them to the depth of the first crimping groove for a better hold but didn't know what that would do to pressures or accuracy.  Have you don that previously and if so, what were your results???  Mikey.

[Robert]

I make it a point to never seat below the shoulder unless they are very light loads.  I would never seat below the shoulder with any hot loads in any caliber for exactly the reason you said.

[Mikey]

Reed1911:  Ron - do your Reed 22 Express rounds use a sabot to launch a 22 caliber projectile from the 7.62x25mm case?  Could I use those from a chamber adaptor in a 30-06 rifle for varmit and coyote???  Would the normal twist of an 06 stabalize the bullet for sufficient accuracy?  Mikey.

[Reed1911]

Mikey,

No. The .22 Reed Express is a new caliber; It is the 7.62x25 necked down to .22 with the shoulder blown forward.