Author Topic: What the #@*&^)$@ is going on anyway???? (Read 4334 times)

ought6 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 19, 2005, 02:22:59 AM »

Sorry to hear of your problems, GB. :cry:
There is nothing like spending your hard earned money on a product you've come to rely on, and find yourself in the twilight zone of firearms quality control.

I was just wondering if you, or anyone else, has encountered any problems with rifles that have the "base" milled into the receiver (i.e. Ruger, Tikka T3, CZ 550)? I have used a couple of such rifles, and love the fact that I don't have to depend on four small screws to hold a scope to a heavy recoiling gun. Also, they have always been dead on as far as windage and elevation.

Just wondering.

lowertroll · « **Reply #31 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:51:09 AM »

I agree that too many people believe that bore sighting eliminates the need to sight in. A bore scope can save some time. When we have "Sight In Days" at the range and customers are not on paper and the benchs are all full, I can speed up the dial in time with my bore scope and possibly help solve an issue the equipment or shooter may have.
Also when changing scopes on a particular gun I usually use the bore scope to quickly dial the new scope in to where the old one was set.

wild willy · « **Reply #32 on:** April 19, 2005, 03:56:31 PM »

Bore sighters are like every other tool if somebody knows how to use them I guess they work o k from what I've seen very few people can do it I see a lot of guns sighted in that are bore sighted at stores that aren't even close db never had any trouble with 10 Rugers did have a Tikka whitetail that was low at 25 got it sighted in but used almost all the adjustment other tikkas o k tried a couple different rings with whitetail so that wasn't the problem

james · « **Reply #33 on:** April 20, 2005, 06:37:30 AM »

It has to be a conspiracy by the ammo manufacturers. They must be paying to have mis aligned holes tapped in the barrels. I've had the same problem and burned up a lot of ammo swapping mounts and scopes to get them to shoot right. My problem barrels were a Rem BDL .223 and a Custom Encore 7mm-08. Don't that chap yer hide!

james

victorcharlie · « **Reply #34 on:** April 20, 2005, 07:43:31 AM »

All I can say is get yourself a Savage and you probably won't have this problem!

HuntingGuy · « **Reply #35 on:** April 20, 2005, 08:12:21 AM »

Quote

I guess they work o k from what I've seen very few people can do it

:roll: What is there to it? With the Leupold boresighter, you stick it onto the end of the muzzle and align the crosshairs in the scope with that inside the boresighter. Simple as that. No, it is not going to get you on bullseye at 100 yards, and that is not the point. The point is to get you on TARGET at 25-50 yards, and you can go from there. If I can boresight a scope, anyone can. :wink:

Quote

All I can say is get yourself a Savage and you probably won't have this problem!

GB - a Savage? HA!!

wild willy · « **Reply #36 on:** April 20, 2005, 09:51:53 AM »

I can do that by taking the bolt out and looking down the barrel that is the idea to get you close but a lot of people think they get em boresighted they are sighted in might be easy but I have still seen alot that weren't even close

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #37 on:** April 20, 2005, 10:10:55 AM »

Quote from: HuntingGuy

Quote
All I can say is get yourself a Savage and you probably won't have this problem!
GB - a Savage? HA!!

:-D

:-D Yea really. The day GB got a Savage would be the day I think that the world would end :roll:

Graybeard · « **Reply #38 on:** April 20, 2005, 11:43:34 AM »

Quote

All I can say is get yourself a Savage and you probably won't have this problem!

Read the list of guns affected. Savage is one of them.

Ramrod · « **Reply #39 on:** April 20, 2005, 12:19:46 PM »

Graybeard, I'll throw out an idea, based my on almost 30 years of production machining experience (although not gunmaking), and your similar length of time mounting scopes. (Meaning you know what you are doing!) The holes are not in line with the bore. It is probably not a coincidence that the guns shoot to the right. Factory fixturing is based on the fact that 90% of the folks using it are right handed, so errors in mounting parts, tightening work holding fixtures, or even blowing out chips before the next piece is loaded, usually result in defects occurring on the same side of the workpiece, or in the same direction, time after time. Quality control (inspection) goes out the window fast when production schedules are not being met, so these things get through more and more, lately.

HuntingGuy · « **Reply #40 on:** April 20, 2005, 04:00:18 PM »

Well, well, well.. GB has a Savage, and it is off. 10 bucks says he doesnt buy another? :-D

cam69conv · « **Reply #41 on:** April 20, 2005, 05:42:00 PM »

for all you Savage knockers out there...Ive seen TOO many other rifles be all hogged up to be knockin Savages...Sorry but Ive had more Rems in the shop than Savages by FAR lately...Seems Savage has been pretty good in the last 6 or 8 years...Now Granted he had a similar problem with a savage but ya seem to be blind to ALL THE OTHER ONES he's had the SAME prob with...Easy solution....Old Mauser or old actions of ANY type pretty much and build a gun...Come out with a MUCH better product and a whole lot more custom to your own personal wants and needs... I have 75 rifles 22 handguns and 5 shotguns...Of all of the rifles only 3 were bought new as is...rest are built...Seems in the past 5 or 6 years the new rifles purchased had one flaw or another except for these three...One rem and 2 SAVAGES...thats out of 9 bought...Thats NOT a good average...Like I said in previous post...Its not nessessarily the type or make of gun but the QC of the maker...Like the machienest said...production lines are too damn fast for quality any more...Go with a custom weapon and your problems will more than likely never appear again...Just my lil ole 2 cents there

warf73 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 20, 2005, 08:58:34 PM »

:-D :-D :-D

Quote

All I can say is get yourself a Savage and you probably won't have this problem!

It's doing it on a Savage also.

Warf

Muddyboots · « **Reply #43 on:** April 21, 2005, 03:04:40 AM »

GB,
I just want to thank you for making me feel like I'm not alone with these problems. The last rifle that "beat" me was my No.1 in 7 RM that would not under any circumstance shoot anything except a 140 BT. Period. Rest were all over the map. May not have been a sight in, scope or receiver drill hole problem but it was still so darn perplexing that I finally gave up and traded it on CDL 7RM that shoots everything I've fed it. I once "fixed" my old Savage 110 by free floating it and couldn't hit a coffee can at 50 yds. Went back to bedding forend for pressure and back in business. I've got a T-3 that is OK but doesn't deliver what I read on this board. Rifles seem to be like women....boy do they have their own personalities :eek: Some like yah and some spit on yah :oops: I don't know what to tell you except I would have done exactly what you have done and ended up in same place. Have you tried a nice JD on rocks?
Muddy

Graybeard · « **Reply #44 on:** April 21, 2005, 06:17:45 AM »

Quote

Well, well, well.. GB has a Savage, and it is off. 10 bucks says he doesnt buy another?

That's probably a safe bet.

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #45 on:** April 21, 2005, 06:20:40 AM »

Quote from: cam69conv

Like I said in previous post...Its not nessessarily the type or make of gun but the QC of the maker...Like the machienest said...production lines are too damn fast for quality any more...Go with a custom weapon and your problems will more than likely never appear again...Just my lil ole 2 cents there

Remington makes Custom Guns...would that solve this problem? :?

cam69conv · « **Reply #46 on:** April 21, 2005, 07:58:59 AM »

[quote="JPSaxMan"

Remington makes Custom Guns...would that solve this problem? :?[/quote]

Most likely yes...Thier custom shop would deliver a MUCH higher standard of quality I would imagin than thier line production shop

longwalker · « **Reply #47 on:** April 21, 2005, 09:56:17 AM »

I had a different problem but found it with a boresite. My problem manifested it's self as a steady set of flyers. I would get a nice group going and then 3-4 inches off. I pulled everything apart checked torque and started again. Same problem. I assumed it was me.

A buddy offered to let me borrow his boresite. Once I had it set up at home with everything locked up I could not find a problem. Then I disassembled again. As suggested earlier I turned the rifle around and reinstalled everything from the barrel up. ( don't ask me how I thought to try it ) I found that the front scope mount screw was bottoming out. The shoulder still made contact with the counterbore but would not get tight. Problem solved. The boresiter did not solve the problem, but it did help find it. Because I could see the cross hair change position and not return to the "set point".

They are not the answer to everything but they are a useful tool.

The rifle shots sub 1 inchs groups now.

longwalker

bluebayou · « **Reply #48 on:** April 22, 2005, 09:57:00 AM »

This is the same issue that I complained about months ago with my 700 ADL. The rifle that I bought off the shelf September of 2003 had "miscut" rifling according to Remington and was replaced. The replacement came in December of 2004 after screwing around with it for a year. The replacement rifle had a barrel visibly angled to the left. The rifle shot 18" to the left. I shipped it back to Remington. The gunsmiths returned it in February of 2005. As of April 2005, Remington agreed that the rifle was bad and will replace it. The production run won't be until October or November of 2005. They agreed to substitute a 700 SPS in 7-08 within 3 weeks.

My point? Quality control sucks. Most people don't complain. They take shoddy workmanship and say, "Oh, well". I could have sat on that rifle shooting 18" to the left like you (Graybeard) said. But I spent a week of wages on that rifle and I want a decent rifle. Send it back and send it back again. You are a knowledgable and practical man, but I have never figured out your tolerance for poor machining and using Burris Signature rings to overcome Remington's quality control.

If my sight unseen 700 SPS isn't right then I will sent it back too. I don't want a precision rifle for 400 bucks but I do want one with a straight barrel.

wild willy · « **Reply #49 on:** April 22, 2005, 11:31:28 AM »

I don't know if this will help you or not Graybeard but might help someone in the last year I have had two bad Burris bases the holes weren't drilled in the center on round receivers tilted the rings I ruined a scope once so I always check with alignment rods now

Ramrod · « **Reply #50 on:** April 22, 2005, 12:15:03 PM »

Quote from: bluebayou

But I spent a week of wages on that rifle and I want a decent rifle.

I have posted this many times, and always get jumped on for bringing up the fact that you can not buy a nicely made American gun for much under $1000. But I think we all expect a little too much from American workers nowadays. And don't forget, in the 1880's most people spent a months wages on a decent rifle, like a Winchester lever action.

Quote

I don't want a precision rifle for 400 bucks but I do want one with a straight barrel

You are certainly entitled to that much, but don't expect alot more.

jvs · « **Reply #51 on:** April 22, 2005, 02:16:12 PM »

I went back to the original post by GB and read all of the responses since.

It looks like he mounts the scopes and goes to the range without the benefit of a bore sight and ends up with high and right on the first shot out of a new rifle.

Is that really odd?

I expect to be on paper under those conditions. Never did it happen that I didn't have to do anything.

If the question is : Why doesn't it shoot 8.5 left?

I don't know. But under the circumstances it looks like he's consistent.

Take the scope off and either use the sights or look down the top of the barrel at 25 yds. That should tell you whether it's the shooter, the optic system or the rifle.

Over the years I had one new Winchester that shot 5'' high and 3'' right at 25. When I brought it on bull at 25 and then moved over to 100, it shot 5'' low and 3'' left, and could not be corrected. That one went to the Gunsmith for a total makeover.

Haven't had that problem since with any make or model. Even though none were close on the first few shots, they could all be adjusted.

Graybeard · « **Reply #52 on:** April 22, 2005, 05:48:37 PM »

The concern is NOT which direction the bullet impact was off from center. The concern is that the scopes do not have enough adjustment range to compensate.

That means that something in the mix is out of tolerance. Might be the rifle, base, rings or scope. Trouble is there is a wide mix of all. When all is made right you don't need to move things much. Proof is the FA83 also recently sighted in. Needed about 1/2" of adjustment at 25 yards from the way it was assembled.

cam69conv · « **Reply #53 on:** April 22, 2005, 07:06:46 PM »

hehehe GB imma say it one more time...fergit all these new fangled rifles n BUILD YA ONE...Ya got tha friends and tha knowhow...Its alot more fun when ya do it thataway...Ya have a gun thats JUST FOR YOU...Tell me what Big name makers can do that? And to beat it all you will, 99% of the time, end up with a 100% better rifle

Redhat · « **Reply #54 on:** April 22, 2005, 10:19:46 PM »

Boy what a conundrum!

Mr GB, what are the constants with your problem? You, the rings, the rifle rest, what else? Have you let someone else give it a try to see if they have the same results.

I sure hope you get it figured out

Little Magnum · « **Reply #55 on:** April 24, 2005, 11:24:18 PM »

GB...alignment dowels will tell you if your bases are off to each other either left to right, high low. I recommend them. It is common for manufactures to mess up screw holes. Sometime off center to the bore and sometime to each other and or both....Way's to correct it are.. fix the gun, re-drill holes or replace receiver(under warranty) or make up for the screw up with custom bases or you may get lucky and a one piece base fixes all you problems. There is a reason company's sell windage adjustment rings, just to fix these problems. Burris sell the offset inserts, bases can be raised with shims ( made from a beer can or can be bought from Brownells)......first step is get you scope rings aligned to each other
then hopefully align them to the bore. In a perfect world with everything true, a properly drilled receiver with centered rings, a scope at mid adjustment travel would be center left and right on the bull-eye. Being the nice guy I am, send me a private message with you address and I will loan you my alignment rods if you like.
Last year I had a military m98 mauser machined down to FN mauser contour and the gunsmith swore it was done
right, but with Weaver FN bases there was a .030inch center of the ring height difference. I ended up using a Browning abolt warne weaver style base up front and a fn m98 weaver brand rear base. I use alignment rods to make sure my rings a true to each other, then lap my rings and then mount the scope.......Also If you mount two of same style bases on the gun example Leupold duel dovetail or weaver style and then run a long 3 or 4ft foot straight edge along side them out toward the muzzle you can see if they track even with the center of the bore.

Graybeard · « **Reply #56 on:** April 25, 2005, 03:08:49 AM »

Quote

GB...alignment dowels will tell you if your bases are off to each other either left to right, high low. I recommend them.

As stated in my posts I did do this and the rings were in fact aligned as perfectly as is humanly possible prior to the scope going into them. Been doing that for a great many years.

In the case of the Leupold Windage adjustable bases on the XR-100 I carefully measured the center of both the rear base and the rear ring and scribed that center. These there then carefully aligned when the ring was installed. The front ring was then aligned with that using the alignment bars with the sharp pointed ends perfectly matching. Done all that stuff to all of these problem guns.

In no case where the POI is so far off the POA initially were the rings misaligned with each other. I have all the proper equipment to do the job correctly and use it each time I mount a scope. This really ain't my first time doing it.

williek · « **Reply #57 on:** April 25, 2005, 04:00:34 AM »

It would appear obvious that after assembly the scope and the rifle barrel are not pointing to the same place.
Therefore, it would be interesting if you could take one of those shells that project a lazer beam down the barrel, place the gun in a solid holding device, and then place a lazer level on the rifle action to determine if the barrel is, in fact, aligned with the action.
However, why they would all be off to the right and high has me stumped! And from different companies. Very interesting. I will follow this topic.
williek

1911crazy · « **Reply #58 on:** April 25, 2005, 04:39:11 AM »

I bore site all my guns so there on the paper somewhere at 100yds when i start sight them in when i benchrest them. I mount all my own scopes too and the only problem i ever had with running out of adjustment was during bore sighting it stopped adjusting right when it was lined up so there was no room to adjust it at the range if need be, after i changed it to another brand that one adjusted right in with more room to go for further adjustment. When i mount a scope into the rings I tighten the scope into the rings first with the bases just a little snug so its lined up then i tighten the rings to the bases I think it makes for a better scope line up during mounting. If you tighten the rings first to the bases I think the scope can be twisted process so i mount all my scopes to rings first then to the bases. I wonder if you can machine or shim the scope base vee so its closer to one side to correct the side to side being off. Up or down it maybe possible to machine or shim one of the bases also to make it work. I'm sure that gunsmiths have to either machine or shim the base when all is not perfect during this assembly. I can remember shimming my sks scope mount so it sat level on the reciever but thats a POS scopemount that i had to correct a bad aglinment weld job. But it finally fixed it. BigBill

GB you make me feel good that i'm not the only person who has problems with scope mounting too and your not alone.

tuck2 · « **Reply #59 on:** April 27, 2005, 04:31:44 PM »

After free floating a barrel I,v seen a 8 inch change in the group location at 100 Yds. Remington wood stock rifles have a wood pressure pad in the forearm barrel channel as do some other brands of rifles. I would remove the barreled action from the stock and see if there is side pressure on the barrel. The barrel was free floated , the action glass bedded. trigger was adjusted from 6 Lb down to 3 Lb. and the bolt locking lugs lapped to get two Rem. rifles I have to shoot good groups.