What the #@*&^)$@ is going on anyway????

[Graybeard]

Yes this is sort of a rhetorical question and no I don't honestly expect anyone to be able to provide a real answer. But I'm gonna share it with you anyway. If nothing else maybe you can commiserate with me.

Took my new rifles I bought for the upcoming prairie dog shoot in June out to the range today to sight them in. What brand they are really doesn't matter to this problem but as most of you know most of my rifles are Remingtons and these were no exceptions.

Rifle one was my new R700 VLS in .223 Remington. It wears a Bushnell Banner 6-24 scope. First shot was 8.5" right and 5" high at 25 yards. Just in case you're wondering I tried and the answer is NO, the scope doesn't have that much adjustment range.

Rifle number two today was my new Remington XR-100 also in .223 Remington. Scope is a Bushnell Elite 3200 7-21. First shot at 25 yards was 8.5" right and dead on vertically.

Now taken alone you might just say OK we've been telling you all along those Remingtons are a problem. But they aren't. Neither are they the only guns I've had this identical problem with.

Over about the last year I've bought a BUNCH of new guns both handguns and rifles. Let's not discuss the shotguns. EVERY single one of them bought NEW has exhibited the same problem. Point of impact is so far to the right and most often high that the scopes do not have enough range of adjustment to compensate.

Yeah I use almost exclusively Burris Signature rings but not always. Over this time the guns have been from Thompson Center (the worst of them), Marlin, Savage, Remington and S&W. Without exception they have shot so far right and generall high I had to use the Burris Offset inserts to sight them in. All have shot great groups once sighted in.

I've used rings and bases by a variety of makers such as Weaver, Burris, Leupold, Bushnell, Tasco and others. Matters not which base or ring or gun manufacturers. All my new guns have give same problem.

Now the weird thing. NONE of the USED guns bought during this same time have done this. None of them. They've been for the most part by the same makers and used same rings and bases.

The only new gun is the FA83 in .44 Magnum which was almost precisely dead on when fired the first time after mounting a scope.

Nope my other older guns that have been around for a long time do not have a problem. They are still sighted in just as they were. So I don't feel it's any thing that has changed in the way I'm seeing or shooting. Guns are grouping fine or those I've fired for groups are once sighted in. It's just that every dang thing is so far off that the scopes will not adjust enough to sight them in.

So anyone got any ideas? Yes I'll even believe it's little green men at fault or men in black or whatever. I'm just so frustrated at this point I felt sharing it might at least relief some oof the pent up tension. Besides I know you guys like a challenge.

[1longshot]

You know what, I think I have had the same problem.  In fact I know this for a fact my CZ 452 HM2 was hitting 5 inches to the right and about 9 inches low.  However I had millet angle lock rings and just adjusted the rear to compensate for the left right movement (windage?) and the used the scope to adjust for height.   I know that it seemed I had to move the scope adjustment overly far.  I suggest to at least fix your problem with the left right you use leopold mounts with the adjustment screws on the back. I use these on all of my Remingtons with great success.  Let me know what you think.

[HuntingGuy]

GB,

I have purchased plenty of new rifles over the past two years and none have had this problem.  The bases I use are usaully Leupold Dual Dovetails and 1" standard rings - scopes are all Leupolds, 3-9 and 3.5-10.  Switching out the bases and rings are the only thing I could think of to remedy the problem, or attempt to anyways.  It can't hurt.  Throw on the Leupys and if the problem continues, send them back.

Best of luck, KEEP US UPDATED  

[Thebear_78]

In these kind of situations the millet angle locks might come in really handy, you can really get a lot of adjustment right in the rings.

[jvs]

Could be production tolerances for the layout/drilling holes or the receiver machining, either by the gun manufacturer or the rings/bases maker.

The last set of rings I bought had some kind of thin foam cushion in the belly of the rings, which I removed.

I'd start over and make sure your mounts are on and torqued correctly,  making sure the screws fit the countersink,  then torque the screws for the rings one at a time and see what you get.

[Mikey]

Graybeard:  Boss, I have worked on a couple of Remingtons, including the last one I owned, that did the same thing - shot way off, beyond the ability of the socpe to adjust.

In each case I wound up shimming the scope one way or another before they would shoot.  One friend had a BDL that we shimmed to shoot straight but it looked so jerry-rigged that neither of us were really happy with it.  The gun shop he bought it from said to ship it back to Remington for repair - heck with that, Ilion, NY is just an hours drive so he took it out there himself.

First they said it was the scope.  Then they said it was the 'gunsmith' who shimmed it.  Then it was the rings.  Then someone said - dang holes are off-center and with that they offered to close the holes and re-drill them or offer a new rifle.  I think they made sure the new rifle was properly drilled and tapped before it left the shop, but I think they have had some problems with that before and it has given people a bad experience.  Mikey.

[Coalminer7]

Graybeard,
                 Have had simlar problem with 917 Marlins in 17 mrf.  Guns
shoot to 1 side or the other and you CANNOT get them to hit the center.  I have put enought money out to buy another gun or scope.  Finally went to a 6.5 X 20 Leo. and the problem went away.  My opinion, it  is the
scope.  My problem scope was a 6 X 24 (Banner I think)

                        thanks  Coalminer7

[Dave in WV]

My 7600 7mm-08 shot off to the right but my 1x4 VX II has enough adjustment to take care of the problem. I sent the scope to Premier Reticle and when I remounted it it shot off to the right again. I'm sure Premier recentered the adjustments so no surprise to me.

[skb2706]

Could just as easily been the mounts as it could be the rifle. The only time I ever had a problem like that I took everything apart and started over. Clean it all up, remount, lap the rings and try again. Problem solved......

[JPSaxMan]

GB,

Do you boresight your rifles? If so, this is a question for the rest of you to answer for I wouldn't have a clue, could your boresighter be out of whack? That might be a dumb question but could it be a problem?  

[poncaguy]

Guess you could buy a Savage "Package" rifle with the scope already mounted and bore sighted......... :-D

[Graybeard]

Sorry to take so long to get back to this guys but I've not been online since writing it.

Do I bore sight? No. Never have and likely never will. I see no advantage to it. I can usually have a gun sighted in with about 3 shots total if it's hitting where it should or if the scope has enough range of adjustment to take care of it.

Buying a Savage isn't the fix. Remember I said ONE of the rifles involved is a Savage.

Yes it can be the mounts (base or rings) just as well as rifle. But I've had this same problem with guns from several makers and also bases and rings from different makers. That alone tends to point the finger at me but I honestly don't think that I'm the problem. My other guns still hit to point of aim for me and so will these after I sight them in.

That these two are Remington's really shouldn't be of too much importance. If all were I'd be concerned. But the problem is there with my Marlins, TC, S&W and Savage guns also. So it's not just a problem with Remington. Altho with these two rifles it might be Remington's fault. Dunno.

Millet angle lock rings can fix the situation but they are also more likely than others to create it to start with. I use Burris Signature rings and when needed the offset inserts as a fix instead as they don't damage the scope when you use them to fix these kinda problems. The Millet rings and also the other windage adjustable rings can and usually do damage the scope in the process.

It is true that Leupold scopes as a rule have more range of adjustment than Bushnell scopes. So yes that might fix the lack of adjustment range to cover it. BUT it doesn't address the problem of what's causing them to need so much adjustment.



Let's look further at the three rifles that went out with me yesterday.


First up is a Savage. It's a .17 HMR with SS metal and gray laminated wood. Forgot the full model designation at this time but it's brand new and uses the factory supplied Weaver type bases. Rings are Bushnell and scope is also. First time out it was just like the two Remingtons. So I have bought Burris Signature Zee Rings and I'm quite sure one set of 20 offset inserts will allow the scope to adjust fine.

The R700 VLS wears Weaver Steel bases and has Burris Signature Rings. I think a single set of 20 offset inserts will fix it. But because it is off in both elevation and windage I will have to set them at a 45* angle rather than normally. Or I can use a second set of offsets in the other ring and fix it that way. Since it needs half as much vertical I might do that using 20s to fix windage and 10s to fix elevation.

The XR-100 wears the abominable windage adjustable bases I hate so much. BUT I am using the Burris Signature rings with them to make dang sure they do NOT mess up the scope. Since I have the Burris Signature rings which automatically adjust to assure no scope damage and since the error is windage only on this gun I will use the rear windage adjustment screws to fix it.

BUT I took great pains to make sure it was dead center of the adjustment range when mounted. The scope is optically centered and I used alignment bars to align front and rear bases precisely before mounting the scope.



I must admist to having no clue why I'm having so many problem guns in a row. Oh over the years I've always run into one from time to time. But dang it this is a whole lot too many in a row.

The worse was a TC Classic .22LR semiauto. It took 20s in BOTH rings and still required the scope be off optical center a lot. The scope and barrel didn't even remotely point in same direction. It looked like the scope was pointing way off out to the side of the gun and it was. I just took that one back to the place I bought it. Yes it shot nice groups but I just ain't gonna own a gun that the scope has to point that far from where the barrel points to hit the target.

My FA83 on the other hand took maybe a half dozen clicks to be dead on at 25 when it was all bolted up using the factory supplied rings which are like the TC Duo-ring. Meaning it's all in one piece.

I know how to fix the symptoms and sight in the guns. I just don't understand why such a rash of them need fixing.

[JPSaxMan]

GB,

You must be jinxed. I've never even heard of this problem before :shock:  . But whatever it is I hope it don't kill ya :roll:  

[hellacatcher]

MY advise is to leave them the way they are until after the p-dog shoot then fix the problem. That way the rest of us would have more dogs to shoot at. :wink:

[JPSaxMan]

MY advise is to leave them the way they are until after the p-dog shoot then fix the problem. That way the rest of us would have more dogs to shoot at. :wink:

That is until I get there...then there won't be no more dogs for all of you...

Nah, I don't even kno where the thing is, and I definetely don't even have weapons capable of the accuracy needed for them critters.  

[TScottO]

Being that the guns are so far off you would could get a good idea by using a bore sighting tool to see if the mounting holes are misaligned. Either way, different scope rings aren’t the fix. They will just cover up the problem. I would send the guns back.

I made a post recently about the QC issues I’ve been having with new guns over the last few years. I find it amazing some of the mess that’s hitting the shelves. QC seems to be on a downward spiral. I kind’a hoped I was getting all the bugs so it would save everyone else the headache.

Take Care,
Scott

[Dand]

Hmmm with so many guns its confounding but I start wondering if you are shooting with a different coat or if the stocks may be different.  Kind of a long shot but???  I'd sure be surprised if so many different brands changed all at nearly the same time.
 

A lefthanded friend of mine finally realized that his Browning Citori had a cast-off stock for right handed shooters.  Nearly 2 yrs later had had a proper buttstock with cast-on and his hits really improved.

[beemanbeme]

There are a bunch of ways that the problem can be fixed.  The question asked is WHY is this problem.  I agree that things could be better. And should be.
 And I remember the days when you could put a decent scope on a 700 and start your sighting-in at 100 yards because the alignment would be close enough to start there.  
A scope is at its best when the cross hairs are as nearly centered as possible so if you have to run your adjustments way to one side or up or down, accuracy and repeatability suffer.  
I had to send a 22-250VS back to the factory to be re-barrelled because even with shims and Leuy bases a T24 was just about out of adjustments laterally when I got on target.  When I got the rifle back, I also got a snotty letter from a ribbon clerk that said they felt "shimming was acceptable".  I guess the rifle companies are getting like the car companies.  Send the junk out and that way you only have to fix the junk that gets sent back.  And some folks will pay a gunsmith big bucks to correct problems that are factory warrented.
However, with my XR100, I put a T36 on it and it was almost right on.  I guess a fellow gets lucky every once in a while.

[RaySendero]

GB,

Hate to say it but... Sounds like you are doing something consistently wrong when you mount a scope!  Can't pen point exactly where the problem is from the info - Very well could be the mounts.  You know some mounts are adjustable for windage - So could have this adjusted wrong.  But overall think its time to use a boresighter!

I've put enough scopes on myself to learn that $20 to $30 for a gunsmith to mount and bore-sight my rifle/scope is money well spent.  Its worth it just to get the vertical reticle perfectly line up to the center of the bore!  You may change/replace scopes enough to justify getting the boresighter and a set of calibers yourself.

The only time I've ever run out of scope adjustments were on target rifles where the scope had to be shimed up in back and adjusted to shoot extreme ranges.

Just trying to help  

[Graybeard]

There just isn't time to return the guns for whatever the factory might do to them. Besides curing the symptom is less than a 30 minute job with things on hand. So return at this time is just not an option.

Well Ray I've thought about that possibility but just don't think so. It's really kinda hard (nearly impossible) to mess up the installation with Burris Signature rings. But since I've got the problem with several guns using several different mounting systems consistency in doing it wrong is mighty hard to pull off even for me.  

I've only done this a thousand times or so in the last 40 years and in the last six months have had more problems than all the rest of that time combined. Yeah that's what had me wondering and still does if it is possible tho. But I think not. I think it's just that old black cloud that causes me to say that bad luck is the only kind I have.

You guys just keep mentioning bore sighting. What in the world do you think this really accomplishes? Other than "maybe" it would have told me prior to firing the shot I had the problem. Than again maybe it wouldn't. Other than the rash of this I've had of late I can count on one hand the times in the last 10 years I've not been on paper with the first shot and sighted in in three shots. Without bore sighting.

There is NO WAY I'd pay a shop or gunsmith to mount a scope. Most I've seen and ALL I've seen locally are not nearly as well set up to do it as me and none of them really care how it's accomplished. None of them actually fire the rifle. Nope I'll do it myself thanks.

Dand, I'm shooting in a t-shirt. Coat? Man we're sweating bad enough down here without one of those.  :eek:  None of these guns are any different than hundreds of others I've worked with. Neither is the mounting systems new to me. I've been working with the same bases and rings and scopes for a long time. It's just the combination of the new guns I've bought and the component sets put together that aren't right.

On the TC it was clearly obvious just looking that the holes were drilled wrong. On none of the rest can I actually see it with any equipment I own.

But this is the exact reason that Burris invented the Signature Rings and offset inserts to begin with. You can very quickly cure the symptoms and get the scope very near it's optical center which I always try to do.

[JPSaxMan]

You guys just keep mentioning bore sighting. What in the world do you think this really accomplishes? Other than "maybe" it would have told me prior to firing the shot I had the problem. Than again maybe it wouldn't. Other than the rash of this I've had of late I can count on one hand the times in the last 10 years I've not been on paper with the first shot and sighted in in three shots. Without bore sighting.

It's simple GB; it lines up your scope crosshairs with your bore. This way, when you shoot the first shot it should go within a couple of inches of your intended target...not several inches if not feet off to the left or right like some scopes might. I've had this happen to one or two of my scopes that I just slapped on.

There is NO WAY I'd pay a shop or gunsmith to mount a scope. Most I've seen and ALL I've seen locally are not nearly as well set up to do it as me and none of them really care how it's accomplished. None of them actually fire the rifle. Nope I'll do it myself thanks.

I've had a smith do one of my mounts. He did it wonderfully...too bad I'm gonna have to remove it to put on my new scope. Just depends on who ya go to I guess.

If ya go to the shoot I wish ya luck and not to get too badly sunburned from the weather you're describing.  

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

        Well I recently had a similar problem but with two ued rifles, I think with the 30-06 Parker-Hale with the Tasco Titan scope fitted it was the reason that the owner got rid of it. Anyway I shimed the rings mounts on the bases and got it to shoot onto the paper and tried it for grouping. I did however inform the shop I got it from that there was a problem in case it was more than I thought wrong with it. Once  knew it grouped OK I then set about getting some decent mounts for it and not the extruded Aliminuim ones it had on it. Fitted a set of Steel Apel Fixed mounts and sighted it in, I used a Collimeter and then made final adjustment in the field. Problem solved.

     The other was on a BSA sporting rifle made back in 1952, which althoguh drilled & Tapped at the factory had never had a scope fitted. I used the mounts for which it was meant for back then P-H scope blocks, except they were the late alloy type and not the original steels. Yep the scope was way off one side. The rifle is OK it's the crapy QC of the late stuff which is too blame, well I shimmed the base and got it on, and last friday morning shot a Nice Fallow Deer with this outfir in .303 using a 150 grn Hornady bullet. I will keep looking out for some original steel bases and the early style rings so it's fitted properly as it would have been bavk in the 1950's. The scope fitted is a steel tubed Pecar Berlin 3-7x36 which is also about right as P-H were the agents for them and the BSA's were set up to use the P-H stuff.

    I see the adverts about how accurate extrusions are ................. Hmmm well so they might think. But that does not allow for manufacturing tolerances and those in the jigs and fixtures to hold the extrusions nor the machining tolerances. Proper maching bases are better as you only have one set of tolerances to worry about and not an acculmination of errors.

[DanielWGriggs]

GB do you lap your bases when doing the install. Have you switched the bases front and back to see if that made a difference. I have had bases that had to be switched to get them to work. But I think it's QC. not what your doing.

[fish280]

hey gray:
i'm with the guy who theorized it might be your technique.
i guess you always set up your rifles the same way in the same vise get-up, etc., because you are right or left handed.
try setting 'em up the opposite and see if alignment ends up different.
i know it sounds crazy, but you could be over-torquing one way or another, or your naked eyeball is seeing things as straight when they aren't because your vision might have changed (i'm 53 coming up on 54 and i KNOW i see things differently, especially close, than i did 20 or even 2 years ago). :oops:
i know i have this situation, and i always check from BOTH sides of my body when setting up mounts and then mounting my scopes.
that's the only thing i can figure since it involves so many brands.
all the best.

[smk]

Graybeard,

After reading your description of what's happening, I believe you are mostly just having a run of bad luck and/or it's indicative of today's quality. I also agree with your thoughts on boresighting.

[IntrepidWizard]

eye sight changes and hold changes is my problem

[cam69conv]

Had the same prob with 3 700 rems....223, 270, and 7mm mag...All three were BAD QC on the drilled and tapped holes.. QC has went straight to hell (pardon ma french) with dang near ALL the gun makers. Bout the only thing to avoid this is to get a decent bore siter to CHECK them before ya buy them... I am with you on the bore site issue as well GB as I have mounted my own scopes without one for over 30 years and can count on one hand the times I havnt been on paper and then zeroed within 5 shots. Its HIGHLY doubtfull that its your technique (spelling) as like me you have done this stuff too long for that.. Rings and Bases , even from the high end people, have also went to hell. You may not believe this but Ive had ZERO problems from the elcheapo matts.. Oh and by the way GB...I finished my .303 and DANGGGGGG did she turn out to be a shooter...Gettin .275 at 100 yards in groups of 4.... :shock:  Needless to say I was happy...Theres an idea fer ya GB...Say to hell with all the newfangled rifles and build ya some nice ones off of actions that were made when companies actually gave a rats ass about quality.. Just ma own lil world of opinions there fellas...think what ya wanna but I myself find that its about as close to impossible that its GB's fault as ya can get...QC QC QC they all suck anymore...Pretty soon we gonna start havin rifles blow up in our faces outta the box if something isnt done soon.. Time to let the big wigs know that if they aint gonna make a reliable product then we can always just find good old actions and make the barrel makers rich instead of them..Think that might put a wrinkle in thier jocky shorts?? :-D

[lowertroll]

It is obvious that the problem is you have toooooo many new guns coming into your life.   I would be happy to help out with the next couple and see if I can develop the same jinx.  
It might be interesting to center the crosshairs on one scope, then mount it on each of the new rifles and check for how close each rifle and rings line up to each other using a  repeatable bore sighter (some aren't worth a crap).  Repeatability can be checked by----sorry, I'm sure you can figure that out without my layman grade comments.  
If your used guns are suffering from neglect during these trying times, I could help keep them from too much lonliness.  I am sure that King would help out with this also---and then I would have a reason to visit him. :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

[Graybeard]

GB do you lap your bases when doing the install. Have you switched the bases front and back to see if that made a difference. I have had bases that had to be switched to get them to work. But I think it's QC. not what your doing.

Since none of the rifles involved use the same base for both front and rear switching them in that manner is not possible. You might have meant rings not bases and yes that's do able of course but since it's totally random which ring from a set goes where when mounting I can't imagine that being the cause of so many in a row..

You don't lap bases you lap rings. Since for the most part I use Burris Signature rings I don't lap as often but yes I do usually always lap rings if they aren't Burris Signature rings.

It's simple GB; it lines up your scope crosshairs with your bore. This way, when you shoot the first shot it should go within a couple of inches of your intended target...not several inches if not feet off to the left or right like some scopes might. I've had this happen to one or two of my scopes that I just slapped on.

I understand the theory. Just don't happen to agree with it or understand folks fascination with it. I find it in use mostly by folks who don't work on their own guns or mount their own scopes but have someone else do it for them. Then perhaps half of them accept that bore sight as a sight in and go hunting.

At best it might save me one shot in the sight in process. Hardly worth spending my time on doing it with each rifle.

I have no real answers at this point on the why which was my original question. Just lots of questions. Perhaps by Wednesday I'll get back to them and see what's going on when I pull the scopes to fix they symptoms.

[warf73]

GB

Do me a great big favor.

PM me your Address I'll send you one of my NEW scopes and see if it does the same thing. (I bought 1 too many)
If it does fix it then leave it on the gun till after the P dog shoot. That way you have and idea were you stand. If my scope doesn't do the same thing then you can buy few more scopes or what ever is needed to get you back in business.

But buy using my new scope it gives you a different out look on the problem. If the same problem is there check other areas. If it fixes the problem then you know it’s the scopes.

I personally think you got a bad run of Burris scopes and time isn't on your side 6 weeks 2 days till Pdog time.

Give it some thought I can have it sent out today you should get it by Friday at the latest.

Warf