Author Topic: ejector to extractor? (Read 1436 times)

jk3006 · « **on:** March 20, 2005, 04:55:00 PM »

Hi guys,

I've been having problems with my .223 handi cases getting stuck. It happens randomly and about 1 out of 10 fired. My load is 27.2 grains of Varget behind a 50 grain v-max. This load is a little hot, but not at all excessive.

At first I thought I had the problem narrowed down in that the ones that got stuck usually measured a little longer (cases) and they had an extra .001-.002 of width near the base of the case. So, I trimmed my cases to 1.750 and dropped the charge to 27.2. Today I fired some and got two more stuck. This time they measured out okay, so I don't know what the problem is except that the ejector isn't doing its job.

So, by switching over to an extractor, will there be more power and reliability in getting the spent case out? For those of you who have gone through this, what should my line of course be? Thanks for all your help?

Jon

By the way, I did the best I could to clean out the ejector mechanism before firing the last set of rounds.

jk3006 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2005, 05:00:14 PM »

I just read back on another thread that partially covered this, and I found out that I can't change my ejector out to a mechanical extractor. So, it sounds like my only other option is to drastically reduce my loads, fire a bunch of them, and see if the problem persists. What do you think?
Can NEF change it to a mechanical extractor, and for how much?

Jon

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2005, 05:25:51 PM »

No they won't, the extractor mechanism is part of the underlug which is welded to the the barrel. The best home cure for stuck cases is to polish the chamber with flitz or JB non-embedding compound. I use a patch wrapped around a bore mop, stuck on the end of a tip section of cleaning rod and chucked in a drill. Have never had a stuck case in any handi that wasn't my fault for not drying the chamber before shooting. The chamber must be absolutely clean and dry, no oil or solvent when shooting. You can convert the ejector to a spring driven extractor, but it won't solve the problem, polishing the chamber and making sure it's dry will for normal loads.

jk3006 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2005, 05:29:58 PM »

Okay, so I've been reading some more. Looks like I could clean the ejector with carb cleaner. Also, I did polish the chamber with JB paste using the spent case in a drill method. However, maybe I'll do it again with Flitz, if that will help.

Here's another question I've been meaning to ask. Bolt actions have bore guides to keep solvent from going where it shouldn't go. Is there anything on the market for the handi?

Thanks,

Jon

jk3006 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2005, 05:34:35 PM »

Quickdtoo,

Thanks for the advice.

I have noticed, despite my best attempts to keep the chamber and ejector mechanism dry, that there will still be solvent in those areas after a cleaning. How do all of you deal with this?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2005, 05:54:08 PM »

After cleaning or before a trip to the range, I wipe the chamber out with dry patch wrapped around a bore mop on the end of a chamber cleaning tool. I lube the ejector with a dry lube, that way it doesn't get gummy or attract dust. The ejector doesn't need to be dry, just the chamber. I've read of some shooters using an empty brass with the case head drilled out for a chamber protector, but have never used one.

Hope this helps,

Tim

jk3006 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2005, 06:06:20 PM »

I do the exact same thing to get the chamber dry, but the ejector is always wet. What is a dry lube, and where can I get some?

Thanks for the tip on the empty case for cleaning. I appreciate all the stuff you and others have been sharing.

Jon

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2005, 06:22:46 PM »

This is the dry lube that I've been using, Remington makes a dry lube as well as do Elmer's that is sold at True Value or Ace hardware stores.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=270323

hellacatcher · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2005, 12:51:41 AM »

I also had a problem with my 223 sticking once in a while. I polished the chamber with flitze like quickdtoo said I even took the ejector apart and used flitze to smooth it up no more sticking. :-)

jk3006 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2005, 05:04:05 AM »

Thanks for all the help, guys. I will try Flitz, as it may give a better polish than JB. Also, the dry lube. And I will first spray the heck out of it with carb cleaner.

I don't feel my loads are too hot because most cases eject strong and hard (thrown easily). So, it's gotta be one of those other things.

Thanks,

Jon

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 21, 2005, 05:29:19 AM »

You can also wipe out the chamber residue with q-tips and rubbing alcohol...just don't saturate the barrel with it...carb cleaner works..but can hurt the stock finish...another thing...depending on how your lubing your cases...I always wipe mine off with alcohol and a soft rag...that way I know I'm not putting lubricant back into the chamber...

Mac

jk3006 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:43:41 AM »

I got some Flitz, as well as some brake cleaner, and I'm going to hit the handi with those things, but first I have an observation to relay.

Last night I was going through my brass that I've recently shot, and I picked out some of the ones that wouldn't eject. I noticed on a few of them (not all) that the brass would only stick if I had it in the chamber in certain positions. For example, I would put the brass in, close the action, and then try to eject it. I would then turn it 90 degrees and repeat the process. On a few of them they would eject if they were put in a certain way, but not if turned 90 degrees.

I've been using Winchester brass, some that I obtained from Midway, and the rest I got locally. Even though the brass was new, almost all of them had mouths that were not even from one side to the other. I don't mean that they were out of round, but that when observed from the side of the case, the mouth was not even from one side to the other (one side was way higher than the other). It was way off too, not just a little bit where you had to really look to make sure.

I'm gonna do the polish thing, and if that doesn't work, I'm gonna try some different brass (maybe Remington), and if that doesn't work I'll reduce my loads. Hopefully one of these will work.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:07:34 AM »

Although I'm really new to reloading, I've noticed that new brass is not real consistent in length and the case mouths are not square, so I've been trimming new brass to spec so I can start with a consistent COL. Haven't loaded any .223 ammo yet, I see no reason to with the win white box shooting so good and it being relatively inexpensive to begin with. Neither have I had any stuck cases with it or the Ultramax reman 40gr Nosler BT ammo, FWIW....

jk3006 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:54:25 AM »

I should add that even after trimming the cases, they were still grossly eneven. Somehow I don't think that is normal, but maybe someone here can set me straight.

I suppose a good test would be to see if those cases that didn't eject (the ones I've set aside) do eject after the cleaning and polishing. I have my doubts, but will see.

Henry Dole · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2005, 10:40:37 AM »

This web sight has been a big help to me. I don't have to re-invent the wheel. I am using some of the tips found in these threads and my ultra varmit 223 rem. is coming around. I have yet to have a stuck case, but I tumble my cases and have not heard what the rest of you are doing to clean your cases. Most all single shots have weak extractors and the cases must be clean as well as the chamber. To hedge my bet I have ordered some nickel plated cases; they are a little more slippery. I am not ready to polish the chamber unless I have to - the blueing helps prevent rust and we have plenty of rain in western Washington.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2005, 10:46:06 AM »

Welcome aboard, Henry!

It may be raining now, but it's gonna be a looong dry summer, I expect!! I haven't hunted with a Handi yet, but I expect I will this fall....one concern I have since another poster's thread indicated that he had a FTE due to water in the chamber from hunting in the rain....don't know if it was a coincedence or not....but I think I'll try to keep the breech dry just in case.... :wink:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2005, 10:48:40 AM »

Quote from: jk3006

I should add that even after trimming the cases, they were still grossly eneven. ...

How can they be uneven after trimming, how do you mean uneven?? Wall thickness??? :?

jk3006 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2005, 01:36:12 PM »

The neck of the case is longer on one side than the other. When looking at the case from the side, the case being straight up and down, the case is longer (taller) on one side than the other. I know the case is round, but I say "side" to try to describe it. I'm not talking about wall thickness. I'm talking about trimming it to get a nice even surface. However, the short side is so short that trimming it still doesn't even it up.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2005, 01:48:52 PM »

Hmmm, I guess I'll have ta trim some of my fired .223 brass to see it I can have that problem.....So far all of my trimming of 45-70, 45-120, 270 and Hornet brass has resulted in brass that is minimum length and equal all the way round with out getting too short before it squares up. I take it that is what you mean, the brass would be too short if you squared up the case mouth completely?

jk3006 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2005, 07:22:17 PM »

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I can't square the case mouths by just trimming to the minimum length. I would have to go quite a bit shorter. Sounds like I have some crappy brass.

jk3006 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2005, 04:50:51 PM »

Weeeellllllllllll.............................I shot a few more rounds today (about 25), and I had a few more get stuck. This is after another round of polishing using Flitz, and spraying the ejector with Carb cleaner, and then drying everything really well.

I did notice something else. I was making sure that my reloaded unfired cartridges would indeed eject, so I was cycling through a bunch of them. Sure enough, I ran into one that would not eject. I don't know why, and I'm really frustrated by all of this, so I'm taking the rifle with me tomorrow when I visit the 'smith. Maybe he can shed some light on it.

Also, once again, most of the fired cases that wouldn't eject, only do so if the case is chambered a certain way. If I turn it 90 degrees, it ejects. Usually 270 degrees is won't eject, and then that one position will eject it. Weird!!!

Fred M · « **Reply #21 on:** March 23, 2005, 06:36:12 PM »

It seams to me you have a chamber that is out of round. A chamber gets out of round if the chamber reamer pilot is to small for the bore. ( oversize bore).

You have to make sure you full size the cases every time. You can overcome this out of round problem by indexing all cases with a small notch made on the base of the case with a needle file.
Load the cases with the notch in the same spot every time you fire them and size them in identical orientation.

Neck sizing is not very productive in Handi's since cases will stretch in a Handi. If you are handloading you should know exactly how long your chamber is. I have some fired 223 brass that is 10 thou too short and the neck itself is 0.008" short. No need to trim cases like that.

A bore guide is easy made by soldering three fired cases together with the ends cut off. I have made one of these for all my sinle shot Ruger and H&R rifles.

Donaldo · « **Reply #22 on:** March 23, 2005, 07:05:42 PM »

I made bore guides for all my rifles by drilling out the base of a fired case and soldering a length of copper tubing onto the end. Half inch on the 243 and 22-250. 3/8" on the 223. About 8-12 inches will get you clear of the action and stock. Works like a charm and quite a bit cheaper than the ones you buy. I also slip a small O ring over the case neck to seal the chamber from the bore. On my Handi, I always take the barrel off to clean it and just use a case with the head drilled out to slip into the chamber to protect the chamber and throat.

jk3006 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2005, 04:45:00 PM »

Fred M. and Donaldo,

Thanks for your input. I got back from the 'smith a little while ago, and he said that I don't have a chamber that's cut real well. Seems Fred M. knew this. I definately don't understand these things too well.

I showed him my brass, and he concurred that there is a problem with them. the shoulder on most of them is not square and true, which I think is the reason the neck will sit higher on one side than the other. He said that this further aggravated the situation. I have always used Winchester brass, but this is the first that I have had problems with them.

So, when I get time, I will look through my pile of once fired to pick out the ones that are okay. I'll load those and see what happens.

I have no idea how to check the length of my chamber. Also, I do full-length size.

When I get an update, I'll post it.

Thanks,

Jon

Fred M · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2005, 06:08:09 PM »

jk3006
You can try to make a chamber length gauge for a 223 simply by running a 222 Rem Magnum case into your full length sizing die. This will give you an extra long neck. Expand the neck as though it had been fired same size as the chamber neck. This case is 0.090 longer than a 223.

I am not too sure if a 223 die allows the the extra long neck You may have to remove the expander stem?

You then tap the long neck case into the chamber with a wood dowel until it is perfectly flush with the end of the chamber and the action will close without hang up.

The case will crimp at the neck and throat transition on a 45 degree angle the start of the crimp or bevel will be your chamber length. Detuct .005-010" for trim length. You then can measure your fired cases and see how they compare.

If the shoulder is higher on one side than on the other, indexing and using a collet die as much as posibble should work with that chamber. When the brass stretches you have to set the shoulder back by full sizing.

Some people claim the collet die will work well with 223 for several reloads. I have a 223 Handi but I never reloaded 223. A collet die does not touch the shoulder.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 24, 2005, 06:14:53 PM »

I would suggest doing a chamber casting using Cerrosafe.....easy to use and not too expensive...

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=15&subId=88&styleId=1095&partNum=CERROSAFE

Fred M · « **Reply #26 on:** March 24, 2005, 07:30:50 PM »

Quick.
PS Precision magazine, has a write up on CERO Safe in this month publication.

A great deal of comprehensive testing was done as to when the measurements of exact size are to be taken and when expansion is at max. using sensitive thermometers on both the metal surrounding the chamber and Cero Safe.

The directions supplied by Brownell were not as the tests indicated. I have found the best measurements were 15 minutes after the cast was removed. The write up closely confirmed that. Accuracy is .04% av.

Melting with boiling water in double boiler provides the best measurements.

I compared lead slugs with Cero Safe.

Yes a chamber cast is very revealing and and very handy with a Handi.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** March 24, 2005, 07:50:15 PM »

Thanks for the info, Fred.. :wink:

Brokenrack · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2005, 12:03:13 PM »

Encore bore guides from Sinclair will work but the flange that goes between the ejector and the barrel will need to be thinned a bit with a file or something.

jk3006 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 25, 2005, 04:45:07 PM »

Wow! That's gonna be a lot of work, having to index them all and keep everything uniform all the time. But, if that's what it takes, then I guess that's what I'll have to do. Thanks for the advice, Fred.

I'm going to do some more test firing tomorrow with some better brass.

Jon