Author Topic: Another Copchick Overpowered  (Read 1973 times)

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Offline RockinB

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« on: March 11, 2005, 01:01:28 PM »
Well it happened again.This time in Atlanta,and three lives lost so far.When will they learn. Yes it could have happened to a male deputy,but why supply the evil doers with more of an advantage.Ex football players teaching kindergarten and cheerleaders becoming ironworkers never did make sense to me.

Offline magooch

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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 06:10:04 AM »
When I first heard this story, I thought--oh no--another nut with a gun starts whacking people for the hell of it.  I was a little relieved when it turned out to be a cop's gun that was used.  I wasn't at all relieved that some good people were shot, but at least the anti-gunners can't use this one as a justification to disarm the folks.

I was thinking--the best way for this deal to end, would be for some armed citizen to blow the bad guy away.  

I'll bet there will be some changes in the procedures for handling perps around courthouses.  This is a loser for the feminists.
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Offline Num_1_Dad

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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2005, 03:19:18 AM »
Quote from: magooch
but at least the anti-gunners can't use this one as a justification to disarm the folks.


They can and are trying...

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Offline magooch

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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2005, 04:46:54 AM »
Well crap!  Now they've got the incident in Wisconsin to whine about.
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Offline ShadowMover

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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2005, 04:19:55 PM »
Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the picture of the arrested suspect shows a female FBI agent leading him away.  What are the chances she was the one there to lead him off while all the SWAT teams are there? The propaganda never stops.

Offline TennesseeNuc

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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2005, 03:34:51 PM »
I've noticed that the news channels have interviewed every possible law enforcement official to be found in the Atlanta area with the exception of the Fulton Co. sheriff...must not be taking calls. :oops:

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2005, 04:25:35 PM »
Political correctness is killing people...

    The simpering news channels refuse to face the fact that having a 5'2', 51 yr old grandmother  guarding a much larger,unshackled, ex football player perp, that has already been caught concealing ersatz knives in his shoes...is a bad idea....DUH

   Political Correctness doesn't allow common sense...and it's killing people...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2005, 12:34:24 PM »
Quote from: ironglow
Political correctness is killing people...

    The simpering news channels refuse to face the fact that having a 5'2', 51 yr old grandmother  guarding a much larger,unshackled, ex football player perp, that has already been caught concealing ersatz knives in his shoes...is a bad idea....DUH

   Political Correctness doesn't allow common sense...and it's killing people...
:o Dali Llama suggest that problem be more with number of persons (1) assigned to the transport than to gender of transporter. :evil:  :x   Dali say he have close female friends in law enforcement and they able hold their own with any man. :-)
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Offline cvixx

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Females equal?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 03:01:52 PM »
Sorry Daly...but saying there are female cops who can take on ANY man and win is BS.  There may be some tough females, but there are a lot of tougher men.  Women just do not have the requisite upper body strength, try as they might to develop it.  Now what females can do is shoot someone and get away with it based on that fact, in a court of law.

This comes from 24 years experience with LAPD.  Females do create problems in law enforcement.  Most have a almost pathological aversion to searching a male suspect,  When a suyspoect turns on an officer, most males are willing to get close and person, or as we used to say, go hand to gland.  Women will NOT do this, and it is what gets them hurt at a higher rate then their male counterparts.

And please don't tell me about karate, juro or any other mystical fighting system.  When it hits the fan, there is just not time for that stuff, it's root hog or die.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 03:40:26 PM »
I agree with civxx.

The only women who can knock any type of guy are Lara Croft (Tomb-Raider) and Angelina Jolie (and that's in the movies). Go figure.  :D
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2005, 04:22:24 PM »
Quote from: Fishman029
I agree with civxx.

The only women who can knock any type of guy are Lara Croft (Tomb-Raider) and Angelina Jolie (and that's in the movies). Go figure.  :D


What about that herman munster looking china chick from WWF. She looked like she could kick some butt.

Intimidation is an important thing in law enforcement. Not many bad guys are intimidated by a woman, even with a badge & gun.
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2005, 04:41:59 PM »
Oh yea, forgot her too. She might be the only exception in this case. She might put a bump and a bruise in ya if you try anything in her presence  :eek:  :D
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Offline cvixx

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Back to original post
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2005, 04:18:03 AM »
The Atlanta shootings are almost a comedy of errors.  Here you have a buffed out rapist, who had tried to smuggle several shanks into couirt earlier, being escorted by a single female who is small and old and armed in an area where no-one can observe them.  Even Hollywood would not do this.  

Joe suspect, being a rapist (yes, I know he was not yet convicted, although he did tie his 'girlfriend' up for several days and did her on numerouis occasions during that time) has a thing about overpowering women and who walks him down trhe court tunnel?????  

BTW, did you noice that when he was being brought into custody, the FBI had a female (again!) bringing him in?  Tell me that was not a set-up for the press.

Not a WWF fan, but big and ugly as she is, I bet there are a bunch of male wrestlers who could easily handle her.

Offline Dali Llama

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Re: Females equal?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2005, 10:10:30 AM »
Quote from: cvixx
Sorry Daly...
Females do create problems in law enforcement.  


"Principles of democratic policing include the obligation for policing to be representative, responsive and accountable. Representative policing ensures that:

• Police personnel sufficiently represent the community they serve;

• Women and minority groups are adequately represented through fair and non- discriminatory police recruitment policies; and

• The human rights of all people are protected, promoted and respected.

In other words, since women represent around half the adult population in any given society, the staff of law enforcement services should reflect this 50/50 ratio between men and women.

The benefits of having more female police officers have been widely documented, particularly in high-income countries. National and comparative research has highlighted a number of clear advantages to hiring and retaining women in law enforcement agencies. This research demonstrates that “women officers rely on a style of policing that uses less physical force, [and] are better able to facilitate the cooperation and trust required to implement a community policing model.” Strong communication skills are essential for defusing potentially violent situations, which are common in the volatile environments of peacekeeping operations. The emphasis in traditional policing on physical strength, and particularly upper-body strength, is also being increasingly challenged due to a growing awareness that good policing is less about controlling a situation through physical force, than about preventing and defusing violence through good interpersonal communication.

The presence of female police officers also improves the response of law enforcement agencies to sexual crimes and certain types of physical violence such as domestic violence. Because such crimes tend to be overwhelmingly committed by men rather than women, victims - especially women and children - may feel more comfortable dealing with a woman when making a statement or assisting in investigations. In cultures where interaction between women and men is restricted, access to female victims of crime may only be possible through female police officers. Lastly, studies have shown that increasing the proportion of women in law enforcement agencies changes the climate and culture of the organization, and reduces the prevalence of discrimination against female police officers, as well as their underutilization. The risk of sexual harassment is also reduced. These improvements benefit both male and female police officers."
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Offline cvixx

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Huh?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2005, 01:30:45 PM »
Dali...sure did not work in this case, did it.

Offline Dali Llama

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Re: Huh?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2005, 05:26:07 AM »
Quote from: cvixx
Dali...sure did not work in this case, did it.
Please operationally define "did not work," request Dali Llama. :-)
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Offline Leverdude

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Re: Females equal?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2005, 07:02:23 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: cvixx
Sorry Daly...
Females do create problems in law enforcement.  


"Principles of democratic policing include the obligation for policing to be representative, responsive and accountable. Representative policing ensures that:

• Police personnel sufficiently represent the community they serve;

• Women and minority groups are adequately represented through fair and non- discriminatory police recruitment policies; and

• The human rights of all people are protected, promoted and respected.

In other words, since women represent around half the adult population in any given society, the staff of law enforcement services should reflect this 50/50 ratio between men and women.

The benefits of having more female police officers have been widely documented, particularly in high-income countries. National and comparative research has highlighted a number of clear advantages to hiring and retaining women in law enforcement agencies. This research demonstrates that “women officers rely on a style of policing that uses less physical force, [and] are better able to facilitate the cooperation and trust required to implement a community policing model.” Strong communication skills are essential for defusing potentially violent situations, which are common in the volatile environments of peacekeeping operations. The emphasis in traditional policing on physical strength, and particularly upper-body strength, is also being increasingly challenged due to a growing awareness that good policing is less about controlling a situation through physical force, than about preventing and defusing violence through good interpersonal communication.

The presence of female police officers also improves the response of law enforcement agencies to sexual crimes and certain types of physical violence such as domestic violence. Because such crimes tend to be overwhelmingly committed by men rather than women, victims - especially women and children - may feel more comfortable dealing with a woman when making a statement or assisting in investigations. In cultures where interaction between women and men is restricted, access to female victims of crime may only be possible through female police officers. Lastly, studies have shown that increasing the proportion of women in law enforcement agencies changes the climate and culture of the organization, and reduces the prevalence of discrimination against female police officers, as well as their underutilization. The risk of sexual harassment is also reduced. These improvements benefit both male and female police officers."



Thats one a them things what looks real good on paper.  :)
Trouble is if you truly did it in an even way around 50% of all police would be women. Thats an awful lot of them. Wouldnt be many left for doing laundry & cookin dinner & such  :)
Seriously tho, as good as it looks on paper to portray police as public relations & as often that they are required to act in that capacity the fact remains that its very likely that they may need to get physical at any given time & most women aren't really effective in a real fight.

Happy Easter.  :D
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Offline Dali Llama

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Re: Females equal?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2005, 07:19:16 AM »
Quote from: Leverdude
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: cvixx
Sorry Daly...
Females do create problems in law enforcement.  


"Principles of democratic policing include the obligation for policing to be representative, responsive and accountable. Representative policing ensures that:

• Police personnel sufficiently represent the community they serve;

• Women and minority groups are adequately represented through fair and non- discriminatory police recruitment policies; and

• The human rights of all people are protected, promoted and respected.

In other words, since women represent around half the adult population in any given society, the staff of law enforcement services should reflect this 50/50 ratio between men and women.

The benefits of having more female police officers have been widely documented, particularly in high-income countries. National and comparative research has highlighted a number of clear advantages to hiring and retaining women in law enforcement agencies. This research demonstrates that “women officers rely on a style of policing that uses less physical force, [and] are better able to facilitate the cooperation and trust required to implement a community policing model.” Strong communication skills are essential for defusing potentially violent situations, which are common in the volatile environments of peacekeeping operations. The emphasis in traditional policing on physical strength, and particularly upper-body strength, is also being increasingly challenged due to a growing awareness that good policing is less about controlling a situation through physical force, than about preventing and defusing violence through good interpersonal communication.

The presence of female police officers also improves the response of law enforcement agencies to sexual crimes and certain types of physical violence such as domestic violence. Because such crimes tend to be overwhelmingly committed by men rather than women, victims - especially women and children - may feel more comfortable dealing with a woman when making a statement or assisting in investigations. In cultures where interaction between women and men is restricted, access to female victims of crime may only be possible through female police officers. Lastly, studies have shown that increasing the proportion of women in law enforcement agencies changes the climate and culture of the organization, and reduces the prevalence of discrimination against female police officers, as well as their underutilization. The risk of sexual harassment is also reduced. These improvements benefit both male and female police officers."



Thats one a them things what looks real good on paper.  :)
Trouble is if you truly did it in an even way around 50% of all police would be women. Thats an awful lot of them. Wouldnt be many left for doing laundry & cookin dinner & such  :)
Seriously tho, as good as it looks on paper to portray police as public relations & as often that they are required to act in that capacity the fact remains that its very likely that they may need to get physical at any given time & most women aren't really effective in a real fight.

Happy Easter.  :D
Happy Easter, 'dude, say Dali Llama. :D
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Offline TennesseeNuc

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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2005, 05:30:58 PM »
"Priciples of democratic policing" :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2005, 06:31:30 PM »
Dali, take a hike.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2005, 01:03:22 AM »
Quote from: Dusty Miller
Dali, take a hike.
:eek:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :eek:
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Offline ironglow

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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2005, 01:09:09 AM »
PC policies have little to do with common sense !

   ...But then, "common sense" isn't very common anymore.....
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Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2005, 11:41:04 AM »
ok...time for me to make myself look bad again...


i agree with Dali on this one frankly. And I also don't think its anyone's job in here other than GBs to tell ANYONE to take a hike, especially someone who was contributed as much to the site as Dali.

Also, lets be honest, in this particular case, a child should have been able to walk the guy into court because he should have been WEARING HANDCUFFS!!! is this a new idea? to treat prisoners like, i dunno....PRISONERS??

and for the record, women can be cops all they want....as soon as they pass the exact same tests and requirements as men who want to be cops do.

if its REALLY about equality, then it should be ok that the TESTS are "Equal" yes?

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Offline Brett

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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2005, 12:18:00 PM »
Quote from: mjbgalt

Also, lets be honest, in this particular case, a child should have been able to walk the guy into court because he should have been WEARING HANDCUFFS!!! is this a new idea? to treat prisoners like, i dunno....PRISONERS??
Quote


Correct. I can not believe that her supervisor is somewhere saying ' Huh... Big, ex-football player, known to be violent + no cuffs or shackles overpowers 51 year old granny cop,  Gee, I didn't see that coming!'

Quote from: mjbgalt

and for the record, women can be cops all they want....as soon as they pass the exact same tests and requirements as men who want to be cops do.

if its REALLY about equality, then it should be ok that the TESTS are "Equal" yes?
Quote


As long as the standards of those test are not lowered to the level of the lowest common denominator so that any woman or man can pass just to be politically correct.   Need I remind you of the brilliant cop who shot himself in the leg while speaking on gun safety in Florida.  :eek:
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Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2005, 12:27:02 PM »
well what i mean is that, currently, according to Ohio laws, a woman doesnt have to run the same times or do as many pushups, situps, and etc than a man. thats BS. if my life was in danger and they sent a woman and she DIDNT do the job whereas a MALE cop could have, i would be seriously pissed.

would you like a firefighter or EMT to help you halfway? i wouldnt.

if a woman can do the same 50 pushups as a man, then i the only difference to me is that i have something prettier to look at while she saves my life. :)

-Matt
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Offline Curtis

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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2005, 12:48:32 PM »
Quote
As long as the standards of those test are not lowered to the level of the lowest common denominator so that any woman or man can pass just to be politically correct


Unfortunately that is exactly what happens, and it has been going on since before my dad retired from the fire department 20 years ago.

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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2005, 02:01:49 PM »
Quote from: mjbgalt
And I also don't think its anyone's job in here other than GBs to tell ANYONE to take a hike, especially someone who was contributed as much to the site as Dali.


I was thinking the same thing. I dunno if the guy was joking or not so I didn't say anything. But now I'll agree here. That's a personal attack and that ain't welcome. At least I think it's one. Somebody better step up and apologize, even if it wasn't meant as an insult.

Now I'll put in my last two cents. My remarks are not meant as sexist, I by no means am that way. I don't think that women are 100% as capable as men in all instances. Sorry guys, that's a fact. I do feel that women have their place in jobs. I'd rather be pulled over or dealt with by a female officer just because she's not giving me a lecture like some big buff guy who think he's doing his job by chewing my ear off on things I already know. That is one definite strength I'll give women. But physically, I think some are not met for some instances. Suppose a woman had to fight that guy (the Atlanta rapist) in the backway of an ally. What's to say of her outcome unless she uses a gun, but he rips it from her? If that woman was my wife or my mother I'd definetely have to think about it.

That's my :money:. My opinion is not omnipotent but I think sums up the argument on this side. Take care ya'll!  :D
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2005, 01:32:22 AM »
Quote from: mjbgalt
I also don't think its anyone's job in here other than GBs to tell ANYONE to take a hike, especially someone who was contributed as much to the site as Dali.
:yeah:
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Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2005, 09:53:08 AM »
Affirmative Action Has Mixed Results for Cops

By John Lott, Jr.

In the furor that followed a daring and allegedly deadly Atlanta courthouse escape March 11, some pointed to the differences in strength and size of the suspect and the female deputy guarding him as a key factor that allowed the man to get a gun.

But what has been ignored in the case of Brian Nichols is the role that affirmative action has played in hiring standards for police.

There are extremely important benefits to having police departments that mirror the characteristics of the general population. Females and minorities are important for undercover work. A female victim of crime might feel more comfortable talking to another woman. Women might be particularly useful in domestic violence cases.

The same holds true for minority victims of crime. Minority officers who come from the local communities they are policing might also bring knowledge about the area that makes them more effective officers.

The problem is that because of large differences in strength and size between men and women, different standards are applied to ensure that there are more female officers. In the Nichols case, the difference was stark: the suspect was 33 years old and 6 feet tall; the female sheriff's deputy guarding him was 51 years old and 5-foot-2.

Similarly, the intelligence tests used to screen officers have produced different pass rates for different racial groups. To eliminate those differences, there has been a strong move to stop giving these tests over the last 30 years.

Some argue that these criteria were not important in picking officers, or that intelligence tests are culturally biased — or worse, that the screening criteria exist primarily to ensure that women and minorities are excluded from the profession. There is possibly some truth to this, but there is still the question about how far one goes to ensure that a police force mirrors the community it is protecting.

Some of these differences are fairly large. For example, in a study I published in 2000 examining the effect of affirmative action on police hiring, a comparison of male and female public safety officers found that female officers had 32 percent to 56 percent less upper-body strength and 18 percent to 45 percent less lower-body strength than male officers.

In New York City, because the physical strength rules were so weakened during the 1980s, a former NYPD personnel chief complained at one time that many police officers "lack the strength to pull the trigger on a gun" and do not have the physical strength to run after suspects.

Part of these differences between men and women can be offset by changing technology and operating procedures. Cars can replace foot and bicycle patrols. Two-officer units can replace single-officer units, though these changes mean less contact between officers and the public and less area covered.

Officers can also be issued more protective gear. Indeed, my own published research finds these exact changes in police departments when hiring standards are changed for women.

We also see that as a greater percentage of a department is made up of women, the competition among men for the remaining slots increases and the average strength and size of men admitted actually rises, partly offsetting the weaker strength of the newer female officers.

The net effect of changing hiring rules for women is mixed. I couldn't find any significant overall change in crime rates when more female police officers were hired (though rape rates did decline). There were some less desirable consequences, and they fit in with the recent experience we have just seen in the Atlanta courthouse attack.

Increasing the number of women officers under these reduced strength and size standards consistently and significantly increases the number of assaults on police officers. In general, every 1 percent increase in the number of women in a police force results in a 15 to 19 percent increase in the number of assaults on the police, because women tend to be weaker than men.

Why? The more likely that a criminal's assault on a police officer will be successful, the more likely criminals will do it. The major factor determining success is the relative strengths and sizes of the criminal and officer. The 200-pound Nichols might have decided not to try to escape had his guard been closer to his own size.

My research uncovered another interesting finding. Female officers are more likely to accidentally shoot people. Each 1 percent increase in the number of white female officers in a police force increases the number of shootings of civilians by 2.7 percent. Because of their weaker physical strength, female officers have less time to decide on whether to fire their weapon. If a man makes a mistake and waits too long to shoot a suspect who is attacking him, the male officer still has a chance of using his strength to subdue the attacker. Female officers (as was the case in Atlanta) will lose control of the situation at that point.

While creating a more diverse police force may produce some benefits, we still shouldn’t forget the differences between men and women. Just as women officers are better suited for some jobs, there are other jobs that simply call for large men.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151748,00.html

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Offline Siskiyou

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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2005, 02:29:10 PM »
I have had a fair amount of field experience in law enforcement having issued my first ticket in 1965, attended a few thousand hours of training and updates.  A fair amount of this has involved taking suspects into custody, and transporting them to jail or to court.  A lot of my training involve looking at cases where officers lost their lifes in escapes and escape attempts.  Some of the common factors that makes this more dangerous are judges who let defense attorneys convenience them their client need not be handcuffed and leg ironed in the court room.  Then there are the doctors and nurses who feel the bad guy should not be restrained in the hospital.

There is a major lack of detail at this time on the Atlanta incident.  I did take a look at the Sheriff's Departments webpage.  I was looking for physical fitness standards.  Take a look and see if you can find them.  It is clear the tactical handling of prisoners by this department places everybody at risk.  The prisoner, the officer, and the public.  I would like to see a "real" peer review of this mess.  An in depth review could show incompetency all the way up the chain of command, including the Sheriff, and the board of supervisors or what ever they call the folks who provide the budget to the Sheriff's Department.

I have been in street fights with suspects.  Clearly the more officers involved the quicker things are resolved.  Way back when I watched a tough little female L.A.S.O deputy put a large, fighting,  male suspect in the world of hurt with bare hands.  He was happy to be in the back seat of her cage car when she was done with him.  The small officer was build like a twisted rope.  And in far better shape then many male officers.  Not are all female officers in this condition.

Why:  Was there only one officer handling this felony suspect?
Why:  Had they not taken into consideration the shank and other items found in this prisoners shoes the day before?
Why:  If the court required the prisoner to be allow civilian clothing why was the changing area not a locked cell, with the prisioner in the cell, and the correction officer outside the cell?  After changing into search civilian clothing the prisioner secured with a waist chain, with handcuffs, and leg irons.  Or other custody controls such as an electronic belt.
Did:  The primary custody officer have adequate training?
Had:  The custody officer passed a physical fitness battery within the last 12 months.
Was:  There fitness requirements for the position.
Are:  If there are fitness requirements are they the same for both males and females.

Motivation:  The suspects motivation was to successfully get to the court and then escape the courthouse.  What was the officer's motivation that day.  Was the guard complacent?  Just another day at the courthouse.  A highly motivated suspect is a step ahead of an officer.  The presences of adequate manpower normally prevents the assault on an officer.  

So is there criminal negligence in the Sheriffs Department, and other functions of government in Atlanta Georgia?  I am sure that there are a few investigation going regarding this incident.  But I think another agency should be conducting an investigation into this mess.  OSHA is responsible for work place safety.  A number of people were killed on the "job" and a different look at this mess might prevent a cover-up.

One of the earlier posters stated the custody officer was 51 years old.  Studies have shown that officers over 50 normally decline in strength and flexibility.  There is a reason that many departments have required retirement ages between 50 and 57 years old.  Most of the studies were conducted on male officers.  Maybe females do not decline in physical strength at that age?  When I retired I was asked if I would be interested in working at the local jail as a part-time corrections officer.  I declined, I need to associate with a better class of people and I was/am to old to fight with 20 year olds.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.