Author Topic: Blank-firing cannon/mortar (Read 2117 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **on:** February 21, 2005, 03:39:27 PM »

So if I'm going to build a blank-firing device; am I to assume that the requirement for it not to be legally a "firearm" is that it will not chamber a live round (only blanks)?

It seems that there are a number of folks that might want to build their own blank-firing-mortar/cannon.

Powder keg · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2005, 04:00:49 PM »

Hi, I've been wanting to make a cannon that fires 12 gauge blanks. I'm trying to figure out how to make a nice looking breech block. I'm thinking something with a firing pin that you wack with a wooden beat stick. Any ideas?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2005, 04:08:59 PM »

There are several companies "out there" that make some beautiful brass cannon (swivel cannons in particular) that have a sliding block to load/unload with the firing device built into the breach piece. If you search through the one's we have posted you'll run into them.

This is the time to post a picture here if any of y'all have ideas.

Powder keg · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2005, 04:36:51 PM »

Hi, I think my favorite is the one on this link. http://www.dicannonworks.com/sunset.htm

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2005, 04:44:12 PM »

That's the link!

Thanks for posting it!

I like the simplicity of the firing device as well.

GGaskill · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2005, 08:26:06 PM »

What about blank ammo makes chambering live ammo impossible? Besides technical issues, I would be concerned about making a short barrel shotgun.

Regarding the Sunset gun, I would rather see the hinge and lock pins at the same height as the bore centerline. Not quite as streamlined but better from a locking point of view.

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2005, 06:02:08 AM »

You would need to write to ATF and ask for a determination.

You would have to describe what you would like to make and what your intention is. One 10 inch Yacht cannon or signalling gun for personal use.

You would have to describe how you are going to make the the gun and tell how you are going to keep it from expelling a projectile. Made from brass short chambered for a blank cartridge and having a restricted bore.

Send the letter to ATF and they will send you a response in a couple of weeks. I have always found that if you treat ATF as your friend and not your enemy they can be quite helpful. Just keep in mind they aren't your friend.

Powder keg · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:29:15 PM »

Hi, I'm thinking of writing them about this. Here is there address incase someone else is interested. I'll keep you posted.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226

GGaskill · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2005, 04:41:44 PM »

salute cannon from the makers of the Sunset gun above.

Their URL :The Herreshoff Saluting Cannon

Interesting breeching design.

GGaskill · « **Reply #9 on:** March 13, 2005, 07:46:42 AM »

I found the following comment on the Practical Machinist gunsmithing forum:

"Check out www.cannonmania.com and you will find a number of breech loading cannons from 10ga thru 4ga with barrels from 8 inches up. You will notice they have a number of 10ga guns with 12" barrels, legal till you slide a live 10ga shell in the chamber then its a destructive device. The response from ATF stated these are totally legal as signal cannons in any bore, gauge, or length as long as no antipersonnel(ball) ammunition is introduced. Its a noise maker until you slide a live round in the chamber then its a destructive device. Seems to me this is one of the little greyish areas that ATF is still allowing the general public to self regulate. Much like a ball peen hammer its not what it is, but what you do with it that counts."

Powder keg · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2005, 11:30:12 AM »

Hello, I had a couple of questions? First what wo you think keeps that T-slot block on that signal cannon from dropping out the bottom? The second question involves that sunset cannon. I know you are not supposed to use aluminum in cannons but would it hurt to cast something like that out of aluminum? With no projectile, the firing pressures would be pretty low I think. What are your thoughts? I'm ordering some casting sand soon,(taxes) and I'm planing on starting on a pattern to cast one of these that shoots 12 gauge blanks. Later,

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2005, 11:34:44 AM »

Gentlemen,
I can personally and Highly recommend Mr. R. Berke George Â“Ye Old Cannon MakerÂ” in Connecticut http://www.dicannonworks.com/ and Len who makes their carriages as very dedicated friendly people that are putting out an extremely high quality product. Berke has been building cannons of all sizes for 45+ years. Their 10 gauge Signal/Salute Cannons are the best on the market. Yes more pricey than the WRAÂ’s but on wooden carriages they are worth the extra. :agree:

See the picture of the 1/7 Scale Dahlgren Marsilly Carriage that Len just specially built for me. The barrel is from Paul Barnett of South Bend Replicas. :grin:

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:37:59 PM »

Cpt Ed -
Looks like a SOLID cannon (as Dahlgrens do). Appears you're building a quality collection too.

Are those 12" floor tile under it?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:48:03 PM »

Quote from: Powder keg

.... First what wo you think keeps that T-slot block on that signal cannon from dropping out the bottom? ... .

Could be taper fit but I'd bet on a pin or pair of pins used as a stop (something out of sight of the view of the camera). I like the way he assembled the Tee from parts.

Aluminum? Hmmm. There are some very strong aluminum alloys - what would casting do to their strength? How about a steel liner?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:53:03 PM »

What about casting in Brass or Bronze?

Do they not melt at about the same temperature as aluminum?

Powder keg · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2005, 01:29:58 PM »

Hi CW,

I've thought about a steel liner. But I'm into KISS engineering. Less work, simple design, is what I'm after. I think I'll try one to see what happens. Mabey refine my designe a bit.

I've tryed to melt brass in my furnace, It just won't get quite hot enough to pore. It will get to the point where it looks like slushy gravel then stay there. When I get some more moneys I'll build a new furnace with thicker walls.

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:17:10 PM »

Hello CW:

The tiles are probably less than 12Â” under the Dahlgren. The picture was taken by Len the carriage builder, prior to shipping the completed cannon to me here in Florida. The barrel is 19Â” in length, with a 1" bore.

Here is another link for a builder of 10 gauge Signal and Replica Breech loading Cannons.

http://bna.bircherinc.com/

Powder keg · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2005, 04:01:28 PM »

Here is a simular sunset cannon that I saw sell on E-bay a couple of years ago. I've been planing on building one since I saw it. I like this design because it's lanyard fired.

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GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2005, 04:23:45 PM »

My concern with aluminum is its reactivity. It is much more chemically active than iron or brass. I would expect it to corrode quickly from firing black powder in it.

Regarding retaining the breech block in the Herreshoff gun, it appears there is a ball detent at the bottom of the breech block and a dent in the top of the breech (maybe the block is upside down?)

jeeper1 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2005, 04:34:31 PM »

If it is cleaned properly aluminum will be OK. I have fired literally hundreds of blackpowder rounds thru my federal labs 1.5 inch gas gun with absolutely no problem and it was well used when I bought it.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2005, 01:24:40 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill

.... Regarding retaining the breech block in the Herreshoff gun, it appears there is a ball detent at the bottom of the breech block and a dent in the top of the breech ....

Reading through the text on another site with similar sliding action, they mention a spring loaded pin to secure the block to the tube. That action had a horizontally sliding block.

Powder keg · « **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2005, 06:10:08 PM »

Great, Now I have to find some little spring detent thingies. Also note that the T on the breech is held on with machine screws. Later,

GGaskill · « **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2005, 08:11:47 PM »

Shouldn't be too difficult to make from a bearing ball, a spring and a properly shaped hole.

GGaskill · « **Reply #23 on:** March 15, 2005, 08:06:12 AM »

"What about casting in Brass or Bronze? Do they not melt at about the same temperature as aluminum?"

We poured silicon bronze at about 2175°F; brass melts a little lower but aluminum melts around 1260°F.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #24 on:** March 15, 2005, 12:13:39 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill

"What about casting in Brass or Bronze? Do they not melt at about the same temperature as aluminum?"

We poured silicon bronze at about 2175Â°F; brass melts a little lower but aluminum melts around 1260Â°F.

That sounds about right - I can remember (well more or less accurately) casting aluminum back in college at 1700 to 1900Â°f.