Author Topic: Just courious (Read 1517 times)

Don Fischer · « **on:** February 17, 2005, 05:49:59 AM »

Every time I read about Savage rifle's there's a huge amount of praise and a predictable number of avid detractor's? I used to be a huge Remington fan but a couple really poor shooting rifle's lately and a very un-concerned Remington customer service has now run me off new Remington's. Yet their faithfull following continue to make excuses for poor shooting firearm's. And Savage just seem's to be getting knocked around by these Remington fan's even tho it sound's like, out of the box, Savage will shoot the pant's off the Remington's, even in Savage's lesser grade's.

Back in the early 70's I read an article, I think by P.O. Ackley, on action strenght's. #1 was the Savage, handleing 70,000 lbs pressure, #2 was the Jap Ariska(early number's). Don't remember where Remington was but it obviously faired well enought that I've used them a long time.

What is this intense dislike of Savage?

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2005, 05:59:00 AM »

While they can be accurate------I dislike Savage with a passion.

1. The action is just plain nasty----cheap---and that spring loaded block thingy at the back----what's up with that??

2.Flimsy stocks.

3. Accu-trigger is a band aid----why not just do it right instead of having that Glock-like thing in there???

The Weatherby action seems the stongest----BTW.

Zachary · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:07:10 AM »

For me its quality. When I work the bolt of a Tikka, it is smooth as silk. When I work the bolt of a Savage, it feels sloppy and cheaply made.

Some people don't like Savage rifles because they look "ugly." To me, I could care less how a gun looks because I am more interested in how it shoots and how well it is made.

And that's the irony with Savage rifles: despite the fact that they are, again in my opinion, of lesser quality, there is NO doubt that they are shooters, and for this I have no explanation. Usually, you would think that a cheaply made and assembled rifle would shoot poorly, but with Savage it's just the opposite.

I can't understand your thought about the poor quality of the newer Remingtons. Granted, I think that the quality has dropped somewhat some years back, but with the newer rifles (and I mean within the past year or two) it just seems like they are a tad bit better. Still, I have NEVER had any problems with ANY of my remingtons, and I am always surprised to hear when someone talks about Remington's customer service (or lack thereof) because I have never had a reason to use it - or for any other make for that matter. Am I just lucky? I don't know, but I think Graybeard similary has had very good experiences with all of his Remingtons except perhaps for just one I think.

Again, I have nothing personal against Savages, and I have always said that they shoot great. But I just can't get past the way that bolt action works.

Zachary

Don Fischer · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:13:25 AM »

I hear what you guy's are saying but it seem's to me that the newer savage's are light year's ahead of the old. As for Remington, perhap's I just got a couple lemon's, that happen's. But dealing with their customer service is impossible, 3" to 4" group's out of box is definatelly not exceptable, even tho Remington customer service think's it is!

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:20:48 AM »

Remington has pretty much lost my RIFLE(I do like the 870's) business too-----unless we hear some really good things about the new toys coming out this year.

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:27:53 AM »

I am one of those loyal Remington customers. But I'm not one who makes excuses for their quality or customer service. I see no need to as I've found neither lacking in any way. Having a problem with a Remington gun is a very rare experience for me. And on those very rare occasions a phone call has quickly had it taken care of.

I seriously doubt anyone on here has bought or buys anymore new Remingtons than me. I've owned over 200 of them for personal use. Have bought two this year alone and several last year.

Last year I bought a used LSS Mtn. Rifle I knew had been returned to the store a few days after it was bought new and traded for another rifle. Figured something likely was wrong but hey it was a Remington so what the heck. Turned out the stock was cut so the barrel channel was a little off center and put pressure on one side of barrel. A call to Remington to explain the problem resulted in a new stock to replace it with no questions asked and no cost to me other than returning the old one. This on a USED rifle not a new one.

I say anyone who has problems with Remington Customer Service just might be a part of the problem themselves. A curteous call and a pleasant voice goes a long way. An irate caller cussing and fussing is likely to meet with same. On the few occasions I've needed to call them I've never gotten anything but prompted and curteouls service and they've never asked for a red cent from me for anything. Even when I needed a new screw to hold the factory stock on a Rem. 7 because I'd had the original made longer to hold a B&C stock I decided I didn't like. They sent me two at no charge.

dave375hh · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:34:09 AM »

I would be greatly surprised to find that a Savage action is stronger than a Weatherby MK V. Due to actions returned to their repair shop that had withstood loads estimated to have been in excess of 200,000 psi. These were returned because the bolts were stuck shut, but the actions held up to reloads that contained the wrong powder. I believe 4198 was substuted for 4831. Something like 90+ grs of it. They used a computer model to come up with an estimated 200,000 PSI.

The biggest reason that people look down on Savage rifles is because they're as ulgy as a mud fence. Strangly the Jap Type 38 Ariska in 6.5X50 was even ulgier than a Savage, and the type 99 was worse yet.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2005, 06:39:14 AM »

Zachary,

I'm gonna try to get your quote in here but I;m gussin' on how, well I don't know how.

Anyway, I spoke with Fred Moro some year's ago on the phone about this accuracy thing w/ savage and he didn't know (Fred Moro @ Savage Shooters Supply in Delphos, Ohio). He said he thought it may be something to do with that barrel nut that's used to adjust headspace. He also said that the threads in the reciever couldn't be cleaned up they were so bad.

Clear something up here. I've owned a good number of Remington rifle's and still have several I wouldn't part with. That doesn't justify the lousy customer service I got with rifle's that just didn't shoot even remotely well.
I hope I didn't start a Remington bashing here, that wasn,t my intention.[/list][/quote][/url]

Don Fischer · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2005, 07:07:45 AM »

dave375hh

I found that very suprising too. I've heard that Roy Weatherby shot one of his 300mags with a 200gr bullet in a Mark iv with a bullet stuck in the barrel. Kinda hard to believe for even if the action held, what about the barrel? I wish I could remember the article. At that time I wanted nothing to do with Savage and was appalled that my Sako's didn't get mentioned.

In truth I think most american made gun's are more than strong enought to handle the cartridge's they were designed for. But it was interesting. But there really seem's to be something to this Savage phenom. With the crappy trigger they had, how could anyone find out they were accurate? But they did!

Zachary · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2005, 07:45:30 AM »

Quote from: Don Fischer

Zachary,

I'm gonna try to get your quote in here but I;m gussin' on how, well I don't know how.

Anyway, I spoke with Fred Moro some year's ago on the phone about this accuracy thing w/ savage and he didn't know (Fred Moro @ Savage Shooters Supply in Delphos, Ohio). He said he thought it may be something to do with that barrel nut that's used to adjust headspace. He also said that the threads in the reciever couldn't be cleaned up they were so bad.

Clear something up here. I've owned a good number of Remington rifle's and still have several I wouldn't part with. That doesn't justify the lousy customer service I got with rifle's that just didn't shoot even remotely well.
I hope I didn't start a Remington bashing here, that wasn,t my intention.[/list]

[/url][/quote]

Don,

I too have heard something about the way that the "barrel nut" is attached to the receiver, but that's all I know - which is almost nothing. Again, I personally could care less how "ugly" the Savage is. Truth be told, if Savage could smooth-up their action and hence increase the quality, then I see no reason why I wouldn't buy one.

As for Remington's customer service, like I said, I have never had a problem, so I honestly cannot either praise or criticize their customer service because I have never used it.

Zachary

Donaldo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2005, 09:55:19 AM »

Yep the Savage does get bashed. I for one have always been a Mauser fan. Somewhat sloppy action even in the commercial ones, but reliable as the sun. Now I bought a Savage this summer only because it was a close out at Walmart. $250 for the rifle with scope. Twas of course a cheap Simmons 8 Pt. Thought I might just use the rifle for trading or whatever. Just couldn't pass it up because it was so cheap. Ended up keeping it, had one deal going on it but it fizzled. Was going to the range one day to shoot my 223 Handi rifle. Thought what the heck, I'll take the Savage too. It is a 243. Didn't have any loaded up so I just looked in a manual and picked an average load. If I remember I loaded Varget, starting 1 grain under max and then downward in 1 grain jumps until I had 20 rounds. At this point the scope had only been bore sighted so I shot one round of each of the 4 loadings to zero the cheap scope. So that left me with 4 rounds of each load. Was shooting Berger 68 grain moly bullets. This rifle has the 22 inch sporter barrel. All four groups were under 1 inch at 100 yds with 2 groups being between 1/2 and 5/8 inch. Now that is out of the box stock rifle. No load development at all. The largest 4 shot group was about 0.90 inch, and I am no special super shooter. Since then I have had a new respect for the Savage and have done a bit of research about its accuracy. Seems there is something to that "ugly" nut in front of the receiver. And what about that two piece bolt? Well it just happens that both of these features are quite clever engineering features. The nut allows a barrel to be threaded and chambered fully with no thought to head space..... until you screw the barrel into the receiver until it contacts the head space gage, then tighten the nut, the head space is set. Barrel change out is about a 15 minute process and you don't need a gunsmith to do it. The bolt is even better. One bolt, either long or short, and different bolt heads. The bolt heads change out in about 10 minutes. Also the bolt head to some degree "floats" on the bolt body. That helps it align with the base of the cartridge. Also the firing pin is very light weight and lock time is very fast for a hunting rifle. It is actually about 40% faster than a Remington. The lock time is said to be about 1.6 milliseconds, with Remingtons being between 2.0 and 2.6 milliseconds. The recoil lug is exactly like the Remington, between the barrel and receiver. Some think it is ugly but wouldn't know good engineering if it hit them in the face. I got some of them "pretty" rifles with expensive barrels, but I would sure hate to put them up against a Savage in a shoot off, especially if money was involved. So maybe those that don't like the Savage should take a new look at them. I think the new stainless varmint model is just as "purty" as any of the more or less standard rifles. Without getting into the simi custom jobs like Cooper, etc. And at a substantially less number of bucks. So there, that is my best broadside, have fun with it.

Lawdog · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2005, 10:28:25 AM »

Don Fischer,

Quote

As for Remington, perhap's I just got a couple lemon's, that happen's. But dealing with their customer service is impossible, 3" to 4" group's out of box is definatelly not exceptable, even tho Remington customer service think's it is!

Omaha-BeenGlockin,

Quote

unless we hear some really good things about the new toys coming out this year.

Sorry guys but it's still the same old story out of Remington. I am in touch with some other shooters that are in the middle of dealing with Remington over POS products. It seems that Remington can't get over the six main problems people are having.

1.] hideous safety

2.] flimsy extractors

3.] brazed on bolt handle

4.] declining quality control

5.] non existent customer service

6.] a trigger group made from stamped metal

Some may call Savage ugly but until Remington solves these six problems they bring a new meaning to the word "UGLY. Personally Savage is doing something new and many hard liners don't like the change from what they consider the 'norm". As long as Savage keeps making rifles that shoot the way they do they will keep cutting into the market. Their new AccuTrigger deserves all the awards that are getting. Lawdog

Don Fischer · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2005, 12:20:59 PM »

Graybeard,
This wasn't ment to discuss the Merit's of Remington but you have no trouble and great customer service. Do you suppose owning over 200 of them, buying several new one's last year and a couple more this year and having this site might have anything to do with great service?

OK, that's off my chest. I'm getting a new Savage centerfire rifle this year. It'll be the first I've ever owned but I've worked on loading for several and boy have they shot, out of the box. I don't know what their customer service is like, hope I don't need to find out! Then too I've seen some ugly Remington's. Remember the mod600? I've owned three and boy did they shoot! Look at some of the custom rifle's being made, good grief! I guess in the end, ugly is as ugly does! Just wonder how many people who run them down have ever owned any? I used to do it because they were ugly and had that....trigger? They have some nice looking rifles now tho and opinion's on the trigger seem mixed.

JDK · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2005, 12:32:31 PM »

I seriously doubt that anyone at Remington knows who Greybeard is.

I had been looking at bolt actions for my son. My first thought was Savage. That was until I actually looked at them. No doubt they are accurate but I can't get over the chincy feel, the cheap stocks, and just plain ehhh of the rifle. I also can't get over the fact that several of my friends have had some feeding problems with 7mm-08s and 270s.

That being said, I would consider one in something like a 223.

Grubbs · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2005, 06:11:16 AM »

I have 2 Tika T-3's, 1 Tikka whitetail: Same story with all 3......super accurate sub MOA with factory rounds, super smooth, super tough. How do you beat 'em is my question.

Zachary · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2005, 06:17:33 AM »

It sure aint easy!

I have quite a few Tikkas and they still amaze me.

Zachary

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2005, 07:44:32 AM »

Quote

Do you suppose owning over 200 of them, buying several new one's last year and a couple more this year and having this site might have anything to do with great service?

Nope I don't think so. As stated so well below I doubt also anyone there knows who I am and when I've dealt with them sure haven't mentioned GBO to them.

Quote

I seriously doubt that anyone at Remington knows who Greybeard is.

Besides much of my dealings with them were on older guns way before GBO even existed. The only single instance since GBO came into being was recently on the defective stock on the LSS Mtn. Rifle in .260 Rem. I told the gal I bought it used but almost new exactly as I told it here. Even before I gave her my name she told me to box it up and include the SN on the rifle and send it in for a free replacement. ONLY after all of that had happened did I then tell her of GBO and that the story would be written up here. Until the transaction had been decided I made no mention of GBO or even my name. It would have been no different if one of you had been holding the gun in hand.

Act nice when you call them and they will bend over backward to fix the problem. Show your butt and expect the same in return.

lilabner · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2005, 12:22:12 PM »

I believe Savage found a good market niche and is playing it for all it is worth. The rifle was designed for quick, foolproof assembly and that keeps down production costs. So do plastic trigger guards, synthetic stocks with mold marks all over them or cheap hardwood stocks. They put their time and effort into quality barrels and they were also bright enough to know that a decent trigger pull helps most people shoot better. They are selling ACCURACY at low prices and finding enough people buying that combo to increase their market share.
I know a local gunshop owner pretty well. I went into his place a couple of weeks ago to look at the new bolt guns. The shop emptied out so we were able to chat a while. He now has three Savages in his safe at home -a varmint rifle, tactical rifle and big game rifle. Says they all shoot like a house afire but they sure aren't going to win any beauty prizes. He wishes Savage would spend more time on aesthetics. I told him not to hold his breath because Savage is doing just fine with their present strategy. They even sold me one - I just bought a 16 stainless and am waiting for decent weather to try it out.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #18 on:** February 18, 2005, 05:53:36 PM »

I always think its a real hoot to hear some of these psuedo "perfectionist" say they "have issues" with Remington's QC and then recommend that you buy a Savage.

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2005, 05:56:05 PM »

You guys need to do some price comparisons. Down here the Rem. 700s are cheaper than the Savages. Maybe not where you are but for sure they are here. Was shopping recently and noted some of the new Savage rifles and the price tags were higher than comparable Remington 700s. At half the price they might have been worth it. But more than a Remington? You've got to be kidding.

JDK · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2005, 01:03:58 AM »

Quote

Down here the Rem. 700s are cheaper than the Savages. Maybe not where you are but for sure they are here. Was shopping recently and noted some of the new Savage rifles and the price tags were higher than comparable Remington 700s.

Same here in northern Maine. Matter of fact the prices of Savage (with the exception of Wal-Mart's packages) are the same or more than Ruger also. I personally would take either (add a Vanguard also) over a Savage.

jvs · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2005, 01:48:02 AM »

The only Savage I own is a .22 Hornet/12 Gauge Turkey Gun. I often held a 110 and other models in my hands, but I just can't get concern for that bolt out of my head. After selling so many of them I suppose they are ok so far.

I also know a few people who own Savage rifles and they are pretty happy with the performance. Then again, some of them don't own a second rifle. Their rifle sits in a closet for 10 1/2 to 11 months of the year.

Savage has a market in people who don't want to spend a whole lot for a rifle but still want a shooter without buying a new rifle and end up taking it to a gunsmith because the group won't tighten up, hence the package deals. Where else can you get a Rifle, Mounts, Scope, Swivels, Sling, Trigger Lock, Ear Plugs and a Target for a $349 special price? And then when you sight it in, it shoots ¾ or ½ inch groups.

Remington's only problem, as I see it, is they stick too strictly to the industry standard of 2 to 3 inch groups. Eventually word of mouth spread about the Savage accuracy, now it has the reputation. Something that the other big manufacturers didn't worry about when Savage was lower than Whale crap. Savage was wise enough to see that, regardless of visual quality, if they made a rifle that shoots well it will sell, and it won't matter how much plastic or nuts and bolts they use. Now Mossberg is also in the lower end of things.

There is nothing better than a 700 receiver, but all the quality in the world doesn't matter to the common person if the rifle needs work to shoot.

For me, I don't base quality on accuracy. Which is why I still don't own a Savage Bolt action. I will be taking at real hard look at the new 114 though.

hunt127588 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2005, 04:04:54 AM »

I have owned Winchester, Ruger, Remington and recently CZ rifles. I have always gone back to my Remington when I wanted a comfortable rifle. However, I had recently been in the market for a newer Remington. As I started to look at them, I noticed considerable changes from my circa 1989 Model 700 ADL. I realize that my ADL is the bottom of the line, but it came with a jeweled bolt and polished bluing and mainly shot well. In looking at the newer Remingtons, there were several things I did not like...I didn't like the fit and finish, aluminum trigger guards (my ADL has one), and above all did not like the "new" prices. All bets were off at that point and I started looking around at other brands. I had a CZ 452 American .22lr that was an outstanding shooter so thought I'd look at CZ for a larger caliber. Upon closer inspection, the CZ 550 had set trigger, all milled steel, floated barrel, steel scope rings, detachable magazine (on shorter calibers), mauser action and the fit and finish was EXCELLENT. All of this on top of being about $100 less. As for what the future holds, I don't think I'll buy anymore Remingtons. Customer Service may be excellent but their prices are too high these days for what you get. As for Winchester and Ruger, I think Ruger offers a lot of bang for the buck with their newer models as they now make their own barrels in-house as opposed to the 90s when they outsourced. Winchester is a very nice gun that shoots well but it about as pricey as Remington. I think their fit and finish is better than Remingtons. Just my $02.

longwinters · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2005, 04:06:56 AM »

You guys know that this only matters to us, right? I bet 90%+ hunters (at least from Minnesota east) only shoot their rifles the week before season (if they shoot them at all). So if they can hit a soup can at 50-100 yds that is good enough for hunting. I know guys that when they buy rifles they want the scope on and sighted in (plus the same bullets as were used for sighting in) cuz they don't know how to adjust a scope! But they often get their buck. You could hand them a Thompson Encore and tell them it was a Weatherby and they would believe you. No wonder I love this site. :grin:

Long

drdougrx · « **Reply #24 on:** February 19, 2005, 04:15:06 AM »

Hi,

I've had three savage rifles. A 99a in 300sav which I sold because I really wanted a 308. (I'll buy another if I can find one in good condition with a brass rotary mag) A long action in 06 that had its bolt freeze after every shot with factory ammo....had to let it cool down in order to open it. Sent it to savage and got it back with no change. Bye, bye. I recently wanted a light, walking around varmint rifle. So, I bought a synthetic in 223. The trigger was awful, the stock could be bent and flexed while attached to the gun, and I remembered the 06.....ciao baby...so I bought a ruger UL and tweaked it as I usually do and I'm good.

Doug

jvs · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2005, 07:30:39 AM »

Quote from: hunt127588

In looking at the newer Remingtons, there were several things I did not like...I didn't like the fit and finish, aluminum trigger guards (my ADL has one), and above all did not like the "new" prices. All bets were off at that point and I started looking around at other brands.

With very few exceptions "New Prices" come out every year. One of the reasons the value of my collection went up over the years is because the price of new rifles went up, therefore the price of used guns went up. In the meantime I also ended up with some desirable models. I can't remember any year that the price of a new rifle didn't go up at least $10 back in the late 60's and all through the 70's, 80's and 90's. It's a fact of life when dealing with firearms, and it will continue.

In the long run it doesn't matter what price you see on the shelf. In most cases the used price eventually passes the retail price. If you live long enough.

Take a look at the 'used rack' the next time. That is where the most value is in todays market. The Grandkids don't know anything about GrandPa's gun and they don't care, so they let it go. There are some nice used rifles on the racks. Most bought new for under $100 but now have a $350 to $500 and up price tag.

hunt127588 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2005, 04:14:13 PM »

Quote from: half_inch_group

Quote from: hunt127588
In looking at the newer Remingtons, there were several things I did not like...I didn't like the fit and finish, aluminum trigger guards (my ADL has one), and above all did not like the "new" prices. All bets were off at that point and I started looking around at other brands.

With very few exceptions "New Prices" come out every year. One of the reasons the value of my collection went up over the years is because the price of new rifles went up, therefore the price of used guns went up. In the meantime I also ended up with some desirable models. I can't remember any year that the price of a new rifle didn't go up at least $10 back in the late 60's and all through the 70's, 80's and 90's. It's a fact of life when dealing with firearms, and it will continue.

In the long run it doesn't matter what price you see on the shelf. In most cases the used price eventually passes the retail price. If you live long enough.

Take a look at the 'used rack' the next time. That is where the most value is in todays market. The Grandkids don't know anything about GrandPa's gun and they don't care, so they let it go. There are some nice used rifles on the racks. Most bought new for under $100 but now have a $350 to $500 and up price tag.

I don't disagree with you at all in terms of prices going up at least $10. However, it seems like prices have really taken a steeper hike the past 5-6 years. One thing I'm referring to for sure besides Remington products are pistols. Look at the price hike on Sig and HK pistols. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think things are built cheaper these days for more money. Remington seems to be one such product. Wouldn't trade my older Remingtons though...

Ramrod · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2005, 05:02:51 PM »

Quote from: hunt127588

I don't disagree with you at all in terms of prices going up at least $10. However, it seems like prices have really taken a steeper hike the past 5-6 years. One thing I'm referring to for sure besides Remington products are pistols. Look at the price hike on Sig and HK pistols. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think things are built cheaper these days for more money. Remington seems to be one such product. Wouldn't trade my older Remingtons though...

You are definitely not wrong. As someone who has been employed in the manufacturing sector for almost 30 years, all I can say is that it is a sad fact of American life these days. Things have to be built cheaper or you won't be in business for long. Worker's health care costs are rising 3-4 times faster than the rate of inflation. And if you don't keep investing in the most modern CNC technology, your competitors will beat you to death. These costs have to be passed on to the consumer somehow. Profits have to be high enough to please your investors, or they will bail on you. Most prices nowadays are set at whatever the market will bear, so marketing is the key to keeping prices high now.

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2005, 05:14:50 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

1. hideous safety[/b]

What could you possibly be talking about? I have an 'old' (3 years) 700 ADL Synthetic. I always liked the saftey. Never failed me, always functioned. Never seized. I don't get it.

And GB mentioned that if ya call calm and cool, you'll get places. I agree 110%. You have to remember, these people are dealing with rude and ignorant people all day. When I call, even if I am steemed, I try to be courteous, as I wouldn't want to be on the other end and listening to some @ssh@le rant to me about something I had nothing to do with. That's a major problem with not just Remington customer service. But I have called on several occasions and I must say I am impressed with the service I got in return. But that's just me.

Zachary · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2005, 06:46:40 PM »

Quote from: hunt127588

... it seems like prices have really taken a steeper hike the past 5-6 years. One thing I'm referring to for sure besides Remington products are pistols. Look at the price hike on Sig and HK pistols. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think things are built cheaper these days for more money.

I wonder the how US dollar will fair against the Euro dollar in terms of the Tikkas and the Sakos? (which I think/know are better quality than the Remchesters).

About 3 or so years ago, the Tikkas were less expensive than the Remingtons, but now they appear to be about the same. For whatever reason, it is getting harder and harder to find Tikkas anymore. Perhaps Beretta is holding them back a bit so that the low supply can bring higher demand and thus a higher price? Heck, on the auction sites I have seen a fair amount of Tikkas just as expensive, if not more, than the Remingtons.

I'm glad I bought my Tikkas when I did. :grin:

Zachary