Author Topic: Stabilizing Wood  (Read 1994 times)

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Offline Chief

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Stabilizing Wood
« on: February 06, 2003, 06:47:57 PM »
I'm planning to put a couple of kitchen knives together for the wife.  I know they make some really pretty Dymondwood and other products for knife handles, but I hate paying the shipping costs to get it up here to Alaska.  Has anyone tried to stabilize their own wood for knife handle material?  I was thinking about going to the hobbie store and picking up some thin slabs of walnut.  I thought maybe I could thin down some varnish or other finish and soak the walnut in it for a couple of hours to try to get deep penetration.  Anyone have any thoughts if this would work?

Thanks
Chief

Offline Joel

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2003, 05:58:45 AM »
Whenever you put an almost no dollars limit on what you want to do, that limits what you can do.  I've a couple of Marine finish products that I use on woods that I dye and therefore can't sand afterwards, Teak Oil and Liquid Plastic, but would run at least $24.00 down here in the 48.  Rather than try and use either a urethane varnish or "marine" varnish, one of the various hard floor finishes work much better.  Again unless you can find a small can or knows someone who'll loan you a dab, a large can may be fairly expensive up there.  No need to soak the wood before hand, just keep applying until the wood doesn't soak up anymore, then wait at least a week before sanding and buffing(don't care WHAT the instructions on the can say).  Finally, there's a finish I,and an awful lot of other knifemakers, apply as a sealer and finish enhancer, and that's plain ol super glue. I use it as a final finish on micarta, dymondwood, stabilized wood and wood that I haven't dyed.  A number of other knifemakers use it on Ivory, bone--anything porous.  To apply it, finish your knife handle/tang down to whatever the last grit you're using; in my case that's usually either 1200# or 1500#.  At this point you can apply a finish beforehand such as varnish/floor finish before you apply the superglue, but its not necessary..If you do apply one, let it dry for a week as I said before applying the glue. Apply two or three thin coats of super glue; it depends on how deeply it soaks into the wood,  You want to end up with a coat covering the top, but you don't want it to get so thick it'll build up over the "edges" of your work, especially around the tang area.  Some folks use lint free photographers wipes to apply it; I just use a clean finger then have fun peeling it off with a razor afterwards.  Don't use rubber gloves.  Super glue reacts kinda violently with rubber and generates a lot of heat in the process.  If you do use them, have someone standing by with a camcorder.  Similarly, the thin plastic throw away types also seem to disolve and add a thin white color to your finish that you surely don't want.  Also, the fumes from super glue are a very powerfult eye irritant; use in a well ventilated room and try to keep your face off to one side when spreading the stuff. Don't try and smooth the finish between coats, that will also discolor the final finish.  Usually two or three coats is enough, unless the material's really porous.  Let dry at least 24 hours before sanding.  If you use more than three coats, allow one extra day for each coat.  Once it's dry, go to the last grit you used and simply sand it down till everything's even and you can't see any scratches; then buff/polish it. Makes for a beautiful, tough, waterproof finish. You may have to use a small sanding block to get it down; the stuff's really hard once it drys.  Sand it off your tang, if you're doing a full tang blade.  One thing, if you're doing a knife that has a guard or bolster, use masking tape to keep the glue off them and remove the tape once you're done applying the glue.  I did this to several of my kitchen knives after reading about it, as practice before I tried it on my"regular" blades, and several years later, the handles are still in great shape.  One further note, super glue tends to start softening at around 300 degrees F, and dishwashers can briefly get that hot if you use the hotdry cycle, so you need to be careful there.  I NEVER put any knife in the washer.  They get washed/dried separately, an put in their own drawer.  The whole thing probably sounds more complicated than it is; takes me about 5 minutes to apply two coats to a knife and about 25/30 minutes to sand/polish the thing after waiting a day for it to dry.

Offline Ken in SENM

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Stabilizing Wood
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2003, 07:48:44 AM »
How long does it take you to get the super glue off your finger? Seems like it always has to wear off of mine!! Yeah, I know, that is a smart aleck question, but I meant it in jest!!

It is very interesting to me that you use super glue for your final coat. Do you just squeeze some out of those small tubes and smear it on? I might have just found a good use for the stuff. All I could ever get it to stick together was my fingers!!
So long ... Pudge

Offline Joel

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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2003, 09:12:31 AM »
Well, I've got to razor mine off.  My girlfriend says she puts up enough with my animal ways without me feeling like one.  Did have a kinda brilliant idea one night, but we won't go into that.
   If you look at one of the Knifemaking supply catalogs, you'll see all kinds of different super glue listed, an they each have a different use.  Some are for glueing, and some are for gap filling, mainly when using materials  such as very fancy burls or fossil Ivory that might have a lot of cracks or eye/knot holes in it.  Super Glue has the unique property of, when applied to a crack, taking on the color of the surrounding area and sort of causing the crack to either disappear or at least take on a natural look. Also, because its an acrylic it tends to stop or really slow down oxidation(darkening) of wood.  Usually the thinner superglue is used for small, hairline cracks and as a handle finish, and the thicker stuff used for knot, eyeholes, rotted parts etc.  Stay away from that gel crap.  I've a piece of beautiful stabilzed, spalted(that's where the wood is allowed to age naturally outdoors, and to actually rot a little--causes great contrast) black oak burl setting on my workbench right now that has all kinds of crazy, swirling grain in it, but because burls are extremely unstable also has some serious cracks and holes where some of the softer wood has rotted away. In this rather extreme case, I've poured super glue into all those gaps even before I'm putting it on the knife.  Even though the wood is already stabilized, which means a liquid acrylic polymer has been forced into all the pores throughout the whole depth of the wood, I went ahead and filled the gaps early on to give me a little added strength.
   Actually one of the best superglues I've found for general purpose work is made by Loctite.  It's called Quicktite and comes in a plastic squeeze bottle with a nice small applicator hole that doesn't plug up.  I get it either at WalMart or Lowe's.  In fact Locite seems to be taking over the glue business; the last tubes of epoxy I bought plus the contact cement I use on sheaths is also now made by/for them.  They seem to have improved the quality of them considerably.  What I do is squeeze a bunch of drops all over the handle and then use my finger to spread them all in a fairly thick coat; the stuff really penetrates into porous surfaces.  I then let that coat dry until it's no longer sticky; usually about 2/3 minutes, depending on how warm the house is.  Sometimes if I'm in a real hurry, I'll spread it and then use an old blowdryer set on low to speed things along.  As soon as that coat's dry, I repeat the whole drill.  After that coat has dried, I check the surface of the material to make sure all the pores are completely filled to the top and there are no dull/low spots.  After waiting a day or so(depending on the number of coats) I sand like I mentioned in the above post. I suppose what I didn't mention is that I sand right down to the handle material.  It might look like you actually sanded all the SG off, but you haven't; like I said, that stuff really penetrates.  A couple of neat tricks for using super Glue:  If you're trying to apply it to a crack or surface where you're using a small, fine applicator(like a needle), pour some SG on a piece of wax paper.  It'll set there for a long time without hardening so you can just keep dipping into it.  Second trick is I keep a bottle of Nail Polish Remover close at hand for those occasions when I glue myself to my workbench.

Offline Chief

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2003, 09:33:46 AM »
Well, now I guess I know why the Texas Knifemaker's Supply catalog has some many different types of super glue in it.  I didn't know it was so useful in knife making.  I keep hoping some of the knife stores here in Anchorage will start stocking more knife making supplies (like dymondwood) versus just selling custom made knives.  

Thanks Joel for you detailed responses.  I appreciate you taking the time.

Chief

Offline Ken in SENM

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Stabilizing Wood
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2003, 11:51:41 AM »
Well, the big boys down at the pool hall told me that you could soften up about anything by soaking it in cider!......    That was back before super glue was even a gleam in anybody's imagination, so I don't know if that procedure would work or not. I guess a feller would have just give it a try and see!!?? Could be fun to 'speriment....

I also appreciate the good and detailed info you have shared here, Joel. I will print it off and try to put it where I can find it tomorrow!!

PS: Y'all hafta realize that when I try to be a wit, I usually get the job about half done, so if my attempt at humor here is inappropriate, please excuse it!
So long ... Pudge

Offline jakenife

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Stabilizing Wood
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2003, 03:56:56 PM »
Hi Joel, Glad you liked the wood I sent you. I was reading the posts about using super glue. I have tried many kinds and believe me they are all different. The one that worked the best for me is Insta-cure. Many hobby shops carry it. The super thin comes with a blue lable. In working some of the wild wood that I encounter, a lot of it is cracked or has pits. This glue seems to absorb the best.
One of these days I'll get a web page together and I'll be able to show off the wood and mosaic pins that I sell. By the way there low priced.
Frank

Offline Joel

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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2003, 05:13:07 AM »
Hey Frank, glad you joined. Contacted the guy who told me about you an he's right pleased that I'm putting your wood on his knife.  Anyway, long as we're still talking super glue might as well finish up with the other uses I find for it in knifemaking.
   One of the primary ways I use it is for "tacking" bolsters and handles onto the knife for drilling holes.  When I go to put a brass(or whatever) bolster on the knife the first thing I do is put a few drops of SG around the bolster area on the tang, then carefully place the brass to be drilled on top of that an let it set for 5/6 minutes.  Then I flip the knife over and drill through the bolster holes in the tang, into the brass.  I'm careful to get both holes started with shallow holes, cause sometimes the SG loosens as you're drilling(from the heat).  Since I use a drill press, once I have the holes started, it doesn't matter if it loosens later.  Then I take the piece for the opposite bolster and tack it onto the one I drilled, an using the holes in the first bolster as guides, drill through the second piece.  It's a lot easier an more accurate than trying to use clamps and a drill press vise, since the pieces lay flat on the drill's work table.  When I put together spacers that fit between the bolster and the handle, I first glue the spacer material together with SG and clamp it tight until it drys.  Most of spacer material I use is that vulcanized fiber sheet stuff, an it's pretty porous.  Unless you "stabilze" it with SG it can later shrink or swell, if it gets wet, an fall out.  I also glue the spacers to the bolster with SG, using a lot of it, so it gets absorbed.  I usually use the same fiber material as a liner that fits between the handle material and the tang.  The liner gets glued first to the the handle material,clamped, and let dry overnight.  When I go to drill the holes for the handle pins/bolts, a few drops of SG are then again  put on the tang and the handle material is laid on the tang, butted up tight against the bolster/spacer and clamped for a few minutes.  While its settin on there, I trace the handle line around the tang so I can grind the material close to the size of the tang before glue later. Then the pin holes and the internal glue holes are drilled.  Usually then I knock the handle off and repeat the process with the other handle piece, once in a while, I leave the first piece on, add the second and use the first holes as drill guides.  Depends.  Also pour it down the pin holes when I'm doing the final glueing/assembling with epoxy.  Does away with that little gap you get sometimes if the pin is a little small, or the hole is a couple thousandths too big.  Another important(to me) use is once the bolster/guard is tight on the knife, I run a thin line of thin SG between the area where the front/bottom of the bolster meets the blade.  That seals the bolster/blade and prevents water, blood etc from getting under the bolster and causing hidden rust.  Doesn't matter how tight you hammer that bolster on, there's alway that tiny little gap.  After that's dried, I use a razor to cut away any SG that's visible, plus the final buffing usually takes off the rest.  It's a pain in the arse to do, but it's one of things that places a good custom knife above the production stuff.  Actually it's a good thing to do to any knife that you have, production or otherwise.  See what you started, Chief.

Offline Anduril

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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2003, 08:47:08 AM »
Thanks for the tip on using super glue.  I tried it on some dymondwood and it turned out great!  To simplify clean-up wrap some masking tape around your finger before spreading the glue on.  When you're done just peel off the tape.  It worked for me anyhow.

Offline Joel

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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2003, 05:18:30 AM »
Glad you liked the result.  Masking tape on my finger.  Duh.  I've only 8 million rolls of the stuff laying around..never once occurred to me.  Have to try that next time.  Thanks for the tip, back.