Author Topic: why do my shots cluster? (Read 1005 times)

bluebayou · « **on:** January 26, 2005, 04:13:35 PM »

This is a pretty consistent phenomena. The 223 Handi shoots a "normal" group. It used to string vertically, but a little sanding around the forearm/lug hole fixed that. But with my 308, with my 44, and with my 308 Remington, I shoot 2 holes and then over to left/right about 3/4" 3 more holes. Looking through my old targets this is a consistent thing. While we are at it, why do my rushed shots go to the left 100% of the time? Is this all a flinching problem?

trader rob · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2005, 04:29:21 PM »

bluebayou, you could be canting the rifle to the left or right a little.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2005, 06:56:06 PM »

One big possability is your "peeking"...and moving your cheek weld around on the stock..it doesn't take alot to throw off your groups and you have to be consistant on placing your cheek in the same place everytime...try getting a trap shooters stock pad...they have a adhesive backing on them and you can place them wherever is the most comfortable...they also come in various thickness so you can fit it to your face properly and it takes all the face slap out of your stock......also.. fliching will cause the same...but normally your groups won't cluster as your saying...it will be all over the place...if your breathing is timed properly..you'll be aligning the cross hairs on the target on the out breath and holding from the 6 o'clock position towards the 12 o'clock position stopping directly above your point of aim and exhaling 1/2 breath to stop on your aiming point...and if your canting the rifle...and breathing properly..your cross hairs will look like they are moving from the 5 o'clock position...towards the 10 o'clock position...for a right hand shooter

Mac

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2005, 10:54:01 PM »

About your rushed shots, are you left handed? My rushed shots usually end up left and I am a leftie. A friend's go right and he is right handed. I've heard this is a common occurance and is related to trigger pull.

No, wait, that was relating to pistols. You wouldn't by chance he shooting your Handi one handed would ya? :shock:

Ian

targetguy · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2005, 12:25:42 PM »

Check your ammo for run out. This can have a significant impact on group size

mag41vance · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2005, 02:13:32 AM »

Quote from: bluebayou

This is a pretty consistent phenomena. The 223 Handi shoots a "normal" group. It used to string vertically, but a little sanding around the forearm/lug hole fixed that. But with my 308, with my 44, and with my 308 Remington, I shoot 2 holes and then over to left/right about 3/4" 3 more holes. Looking through my old targets this is a consistent thing. While we are at it, why do my rushed shots go to the left 100% of the time? Is this all a flinching problem?

What distance are you shooting? I have found parallax to be one reason for clustering. Settling in on a target with Scope parallax issues is a common problem especially at distances under 100 yards.

Duce · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2005, 03:25:37 AM »

Blue: I can't tell you the cause of your clustering, on thing you might try. As you shoot, scope your target and record how the shots fall. If it goes like this one on, two low, three with one, four with two, then five with one and three, suspect bedding or the way your sandbagging the rifle on the bench. If the pattern is 1 and 2 together then 3,4 and 5 in another grp. or 1,2, and 3 together and 4 and 5 together it might be the way you're holding or cheeking the rifle, to get the most from a Handi you got to teach yourself to hold the rifle the same everytime. another cause maybe your follow through with the trigger, with the Handi's transfer bar you need to follow through completely, not doing so can cause a variation in primer hit. Hope This Helps: :grin: <>< Duce:

P.S. Don't forget to check the scope mount, rings and scope.

bluebayou · « **Reply #7 on:** January 29, 2005, 03:14:40 AM »

Thanks for the good info. I think that parallax might be the issue as mag41 is saying. The 223 Handi has a Simmons ATV with AO on it. I have it focused at a little less than 100 yards. (All that I do is 100 yard target shooting really) The two 308's both have VX-2's that are fixed at 150 yards. The cheekweld idea really boils down to parallax (somebody correct me if I am wrong) I will pay attention to both when I can get to the range again.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2005, 05:40:13 AM »

You can easily dial the parallax error out with the scope's AO. Place the rifle on sand bags or in a shooting rest. Adjust the aim so the x-hair is on your target. Without moving the rifle, look through the scope and move your head/eye position around just enough that you can see the x-hair appear to move on the target, adjust the AO until there is no apparent movement between the x-hair and the target. Make note of the position of the AO indexing so you don't have to adjust the AO for 100yds again. I do this each time I shoot a new scope to make sure the indexing is on, if it's not, you will shrink your groups as much as possible due to parallax sighting error by making a small adjustment. I have no scopes that are perfectly indexed, they all are off some, even my Elite 4200. :? For hunting purposes, it doesn't matter much, but for sight in, it can be a bit frustrating.

JPH45 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2005, 02:28:18 PM »

Somehow, I doubt that paralax is the problem, my 44 does exactly the same thing with cast, but not jacketed....go figure. I do most of my shooting at 50 yards. I have a pile of targets of ten shots groups that are 1.5" tall, 5-8 shots on the right, 3"4" left will be the balance of the shots, the strings will be vertically strung, all shots in a string touching, most overlapping. Very often, of 10 shots fired there will be three distinct 3 shot cloverleafs, one over the other on the right, one left and one shot tying the two on the right together. This is a constant phenomena regardless of a 200 or a 265 grain bullet or the powder used. 5 shot jacketed bullet loads (270 Speer Gold Dot and 300 Hornady XTP) make nice round groups that can be covered with a quarter, many with a nickel. Most often 4 shots make a 5/8" group, with a fifth shot opening to 1" or so, but there is no rhyme or reason on the flyer shot.

mag41vance · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2005, 02:30:35 PM »

JPH45,
I know what you're saying about that 5th shot blowing up a group, and doubting that parallax is the issue. I still think parallax is the culprit behind many frustrations at the bench.
It is possible to shoot incredibly tight groups even with the parallax problem, consistency is the key. If you can hold your eye in the same relative position shot after shot, then the crosshairs will be fixed on the target in the same way every time. If you shoot with your eye directly centered for three shots, and then shoot three more shots with your eye 1/8 inch off center relative to scope position , you will have two distinct groups. IE(cluster groups)
Thats why AO scopes are a must for good target shooting.
For hunting with pistol caliber rifles, shotgun scopes are usually the best choice as they are set for a 50 yd Parallax.

JPH45 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2005, 06:01:51 PM »

mag41vance, It is frustrating, and the problem I have with the idea of it being paralax is that I can fire 30 rounds of cast, 10 shots each on three targets and get the two group phenomenon on each target. Yet I don't see it with jacketed. To say it is paralax is saying that when I shoot cast, my eye is in two different places for the targets, but not when I shoot jacketed. It don't add up. I'm gonna send up some photocopies of some targets, been wanting to do this anyway so that DJ can have a look at what I've been getting out of my 45-70. I'll try to get 'em out at the end of the week, will let you know.

mag41vance · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2005, 12:25:20 AM »

JPH45,
I guess what you're saying is that, It's easier to figure out women than guns"

MSP Ret · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2005, 02:13:03 AM »

:shock: :-D :shock: :-D :roll:

mitchell · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2005, 04:38:48 AM »

Quote from: mag41vance

JPH45,
I guess what you're saying is that, It's easier to figure out women than guns"

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: WHAT

in that case help your brother out man what school did you go to???

JPH45 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2005, 04:00:56 PM »

Quote from: mag41vance

JPH45,
I guess what you're saying is that, It's easier to figure out women than guns"

I play with my guns because I gave up trying to figure out my woman....note the singular, I DO NOT WANT TWO! :eek:

Here is the part I do not undrstand about paralax. We know what causes it, it is a result of the length between the objective and the focal lens. We know what it causes, when the eye is not centered with the centerline of the scope, the crosshairs are actually off target some slight amount, the resulting error causes larger groups.

So say we adjust out the apparent discrepancy. This does not change the fact that our eye is still out of alignment with the scope, we have just fooled the eye into seeing something that is not there, ie a crosshair on target.

I've never had an AO scope, more money for something I've never had use for. I'm sure long ragne target shooters can tell the difference, and I'm sure that bench rest shooters can tell the difference. I remain doubtful that a Handi shooter would ever know the difference.

Is anyone out there who could explain to me how it is that adjusting the paralax corrects an improper alignment with the rifle? It seems to me that correcting the users misalignment with the rifle would do more to improve groups than covering up the misalignment would, and that is all I see in adjusting the paralax out, is a covering up of the misalignment of the eye and even the body with the scope/rifle.

I'm sure there is something here I don't understand.