Author Topic: I just can't see it?????? (Read 1750 times)

OOBuckshot · « **on:** February 04, 2003, 07:53:38 AM »

I know it is all in how we look at things a lot of time. And I just can't seem to look at the ballistics of a .223 and see why it is so popular. It doesn't come close to a 22-250, 220 swift or a .243/6mm. as a flat shooting varmint rifle. It is only marginally better than a .222 rem. I know a lot of you have them so I am depending on you to tell me why you choose a .223 over a flatter shoot caliber. There are some other rounds I need help with and that is the Ak 47 and the .17 cal. I mean the AK 47 round doesn't measure up to the ballistics of a 30-30, our oldest smokeless powder cartridge and I though the .17s had their day back in the late 60s or early 70s and were rejected.

Come on fellows give me a reason to buy a .223 at the next gun show. I might be missing out on something good. OOBuckshot :?

hardwood · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:38:24 AM »

Because this is America and YOU CAN! What other reason do you need? Actually I own two .223's, they are really a 5.56 NATO as the rifles I'm referring to are my AR15 and SAR-3 (AK47 clone chambered for 5.56 NATO). You are right that the .223 isn't ballistically superior to the 22-250 but is uses less powder. Coyotes and other varmints won't know the difference and neither will you until you begin to stretch your shots out to 400+ yds. Plus, .223 brass is much cheaper than the 22-250 and recoil is milder. As for the 17's - well just look at the stir over the most recent .17 - the 17HMR. I don't see any use for the 17HMR myself - my .17 of choice was the 17 Ackley Hornet because I liked the small rimmed case (it lends itself well the Encore platform) and the 1000+ fps gain over the 17 HMR was a plus as well. I like to reload so the 17 Ackley Hornet was a given over the 17HMR. Another neat little .17 is the 17 MachIV which I would have chosen if the rifle was of bolt design. As for the 7.62X39 - it can be a very accurate cartridge if handloaded and shot from a decent firearm - but factory ammo is severly lacking. However, if not for the 7.62X39 Russian we would never have gotten to see the PPC family of cartridges as the .220 Russian (7.62 necked down to 5.45) is the parent case for the PPC family (17 PPC, 20 PPC, 22 PPC, and 6mm PPC).

longwinters · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:47:37 AM »

The biggest plus for the 223 is CHEAP AMMO.

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2003, 10:44:22 AM »

OOBuckshot, it's real simple. With the .223 I can see the gophers explode into little tiny chunks, pieces and parts, with those other guns the recoil is just enough to miss the red mist effect...

OOBuckshot · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2003, 11:37:58 AM »

Thanks fellows. Lets see now..cheap ammo. Well I reload all mine so that doesn't make me want to buy a .223. Now, as for seeing the results of the hit, I have seen many a pink vapor cone when a 4000 ft/sec 52gr hollow point hits a ground hog. Low recoil???...never was a problem with my swift and the six. Really if low recoil is the goal the triple duce is the answer to that. As for buying one because you can, nope, I can but that still does not make me want to buy one at the next gun show. I know .223s are very popular, but you fellows are going to have to do better than this to help me see why I should buy a .223 cal. rifle. :roll: OOBuckshot

CGSteve · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2003, 12:06:06 PM »

It is a great entry level centerfire varmint round. Cheap ammo, many knowledgeable resources of info, and a huge selection of rifles available.

It doesn't sound as though you're a beginner though. I guess you just better leave that .223 to us rookies=more ammo for me!

For someone like you the tinker factor might be the coolest thing about them.

What criteria must be met in order for you to buy a rifle?

Use the force,
Steve

**Mostly they are just a fun gun to shoot and .223 sounds cool!

jhm · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2003, 12:39:11 PM »

If all of my shots were in the range of the 22-250 and the 220 swift I would stay away from the 223 also but I love convincing MYSELF I need it and thats enough reason for me.

JIM

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2003, 01:03:28 PM »

I have been thinking .223 vs. .22-250. People have mentioned cheaper ammo than the .22-250, but, in checking the prices, the .223 is really not all that cheaper - in some cases, it's the same.

Two advantages associated with the .223 over the .22-250 are 1) less powder means less kick, and thus less flinching and possibly better accuracy, and 2) less powder means longer barrel life.

Personally, I want a .223 or .22-250 just for fun - almost like plinking on the weekends at the gun range - you can shoot a lot and it won't hit your shoulder - or wallet - too hard.

Even then, though, I don't think that I would shoot more than 100 rounds per year. As such, either the .223 or .22-250 won't make barrel life such an issue. However, if you intend on shooting a ton of loads, like in the thousands, and such shots will be shorter distances than the .22-250, then I would say get the .223. If, however, you want to take longer shots (thus need flatter trajectory) then I would say .22-250. :grin:

Zachary

Zachary

I am CAL......... · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2003, 01:38:09 PM »

Hello Mr.OO

, When I bought my first 223 some 30 yrs. ago I had had a bad neck injury and the less recoil was attractive. But I later found that the 223 shot about as good as I needed to hunt with and shoot crows with also. I find that the hulls are quite easy to find and the other reloading ingredients are also.Now the 223 is not for everyone and I would not try to convience you to obtain one.I am just telling you why I have 4 bolt guns and 2 semi-automatics.I shoot an awful lots and down here in So.Ga. I find it to be my favorite cal. I also shoot 22-250,6mm.243, 222,and 308. For what I use the 223 for I find that it is about as good as any of the rest on less powder too. I am CAL.......

OOBuckshot · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2003, 03:03:34 PM »

:idea: Hi fellows, I am beginning to see why the .223 is so popular. It has low recoil and shoots cheap ammo. It is fun to plink with and can be used as a varmint rifle. I can understand this. Steve, my criterion for a varmint rifle is to shoot flat enough to have a point blank range of 350 yards. I like to knock them chucks off in the big bean fields. Cal check your Nosler manual number 4. With a 55gr balistic tip and some W-760 you an turn that six into greased lightning. You have some big big bean fields where you live. By the way, that triple duce you have, what rifle is that in??? By the way Cal, my entry level varmint rifle was a custom swift on a mauser action with a Douglas semi bull barrel and a K-10 weaver scope. I bought it from a good ole boy from Tenn. when we were at East Carolina College. It was not a univesisty then. I gave him $125.00 for the gun. I still have it. :wink:

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2003, 04:20:06 PM »

Had a 220 Swift once. Deadly accurate, way out there. Good trigger in it for a Ruger 77. Can't tell you why, but never liked it. Never had any problem with cases like some say they do. Made a can of powder diasappear real quick. Didn't keep it very long. Like to have another.

Got rid of the Swift for my Ruger 22-250. I shot a lot of northern California picket pins and grey diggers and Texas Prairie Dogs, not to mention rock chucks, wood chucks and coyotes with the 22-250.. Some close, some out there and even a few way out there. It's semi retired now. Use it for company gun now. When ever I have company and they need a gun...ya know what I mean. At ranges under 250 yards and scope powers above 10X you miss the red mist effect. It just bounced to much for those high power scopes. Beyond that ususally no problem. But I'll tell you after 150-250 rounds in an afternoon it will make you real tired and leave a sore shoulder.

My absolute favorite chuck gun is my .219 Donaldson Wasp. That 17 lb gun is strickly a bag and bench iron. Used it on Texas Prairie dogs and Montana Gophers. Took several prairie dogs over 400 yards, but they are pretty good size targets. It comes into itself shooting rock chucks in Montana. Set up the bench in pasture in bottom of a big coulee with rock walls all around you and spend the day. Does not move at the shot and will flip a big chuck on his back or off the cliff trailing blue green streamers. Being down in the bottom of the coulee breaks the wind and make 300+ yards simple and 450-500 shot a lot more possible.

Then there is the .223 Remington 700. It's a laser. In two years I put over 5000 rounds through it. Used it for gopher shooting. You can shoot all day and not get tired. Gophers range from 2 feet out to as far as you can see them. 500 yard targets are common, and if you can judge the prairie winds just right you can even get an occaisional hit on the pop can size critter. Most shots were in the 75-200 yard range and the .223 was right on at that distance. Hit gophers look like they were dynamited. .223 is easy on your shoulder and a can of powder lasted longer than with the Swift or 22-250.

Here's my buddy lon Scott with my .223 and a young stupid rock chuck!

Last year I started playing with a Small Martini in .218 Mashburn Bee. Right now it has a Peep sight on it. Out to 50 yards it is deadly. I am going put a scope on it and use it here in Virginia where I now stay. Shorter ranges and the lower noise might keep the gates open for me. I used this gun last year in Africa to take Monkeys, a Steenbok and a Springbok, and all kinds of other small critters. It did good, but needs a scope.

My main hunting partner thinks her .22K-hornet is plenty gun for chucks

When I venture out after gophers in Montana my trusty Remingon 581 is never far away. For the 5 years I was in Montana this little gun fired in excess of 4000 rounds a year.

As you can see I don't limit myself to just one caliber or one gun. No fun in that.

KN · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2003, 04:56:32 PM »

Yur jest havin too much fun!!! KN

OOBuckshot · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2003, 05:36:04 PM »

Hey DD, you are the man. Those are some fine guns. As I said in my first post, it is all in how you look at things. My battery is based on bullet weight and velocity. Starting with a 22 rim fire to the 220 swift, 243/6mm, 270 and a 30-06. and there is a 30-30 in there some where. My bullet weights span from 40grs. to 220grs. My velocity ranges from sub sonic 22 rim fires to 4200ft/sec. The 243 has a Gen. III night scope. I have some creek bottoms that are surrounded by high ridges. It is still too dark to see anything with a normal scoped rifle a half hour after it is legal shooting time and it gets too dark in the evenings when there is a half hour to forty-five minutes of shooting time left. It is interesting zeroing in a scope one or two o'clock in the morning. With this battery, I can hunt any thing from song birds to the great Alaskan Moose. I never intend to hunt the great bears. The rifle I'm shooting the most now is the six in a Ruger # 1. It is a tack driver. Well keep on shooting and take some one to the range that has never shot guns. :grin: OOBuckshot

CPB · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2003, 03:42:02 AM »

Hey OO,

Although I presonaly dont have one yet, I here tell you can take one of those souped up AR-15s with the correct twist to the rifling, put a 62gr bullet througt it and go out and shoot 1000yd matchs.
Now I aint never shot anything that far, man I cant even see that far, but if I could I sure would like to give it a try. How about you?
Dont disguard the little old .223 yet.

Good Shooting

CPB

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2003, 03:52:04 AM »

OOBuckshot, it looks like you are decent sorta fella after all. I was beginning to think you were one of those guy who was trying to figure out how to get the powder can straight into the chamber no need for that nasty old brass case. Ruger #1 6mm huh, you have a touch of class.

I have shot bought and sold a lot of rifles over the years, but regretted only one, a Ruger #1 in 6mm. It slayed a lot of Oregon blacktail.

Went back to college some years ago. Had kids in school. When things got tight like a week or two before the student loan check came in, and we needed bread and milk, I would dig in the gun locker and find something to sell. The 6mm lasted until the very last semester. I couldn't even bring myself to sell it, sent it with the wife to the gun shop. That gun was a grocery gun for sure. Kept us in meat for two years in school, and just before it went, bread an milk. It was a sweet handling, sweet shooting good gun. Some day I will replace it.

I use to work for a major gunsmithing company. You know where they have a big name and a bunch mimimum wage employees assembling high dollar guns. I use to install $5 muzzlebrakes for $200 in 20 minutes. Got to shoot all the big hot calibers and learned to like only two of them. 300 Win Mag and the 308 Norma. (Actually for what I was shooting they were the little ones) I would like do more work with the 358 Norma mag also.

Those big high velocity flat shooters are boring to shoot. Any yahoo can hit with them. Point and shoot, hit the target. Well that is unless you don't start shooitng them until you target is beyond 500 yards. Then skill takes over to get hits. Hum, maybe that's why I don't shoot them any more, no skill.

Right now I don't have anything huntable from .223 to .30. I have a full military 6.5 Swede and one partially sporterized. I also have a 7x57 partially sporterized. Gotta finish those guns someday. What's the rush, I have a 30 year life expectancy left.

The 308 Norma gets drug out if I go antelope hunting. It's launches 308 165 Sierra's into near earth orbit. But don't shoot anything you want to eat closer than 250 yards.

My deer hunting battery currently is built up of three rifles. 338/06 AI, 338-308 AI and a 404 Express.

The 338/06 has taken a lot of game with the Sierra 250 gr. SPBt. Hogs, Deer,varmints large and small. It's not a good gopher stopper. Here's a note that I posted some where else on this board on this gun from my test of the Nosler 180 gr. Ballistic tip. LRF=Laser range finder

Quote

8/29/99 Three rounds fired to check extraction and expansion qualities and group size . 8/30/99 5 three shot groups fired Good groups, average .775. sight 2.5 inches high 100 yards. 11/09/1999 WT doe, 435 yds, LRF, DW&JO. broadside,held top of back. through and through, chest, clipped arteries from top of heart. Minimal meat damage 10/22/00 WT buck, 80 yds,DW&JO. running 1/4 away, held center front shoulder,through and through, hit behind left shoulder, exit between neck and Rtf shoulder, minimal damage. 10/23/00 WT doe 385, LRF, DW, broadside, hold top of back, through and through front shoulder. rt shoulder minimal, left, exit shoulder destroyed

This is a Prairie Mulie, not as big as the mountain Mulie and about the size of those Blacktails found in Oregon.

My current favorite is my 338/308 AI. I killed the prairie Mule deer above with in three minutes of legal shooting light in Montana in 2001 and few weeks later dropped a cow elk with the same gun. I took it to Africa with me and it worked superbly also. Most of the game shot in Africa was smaller than deer. The 338/308 likes the 200 gr Nosler BT's. I gotta try those 200 Gr.s in the 338/06. (Humm, just thought of something, the 338/308 was built on a Ruger 77 that started out as a 6mm Remington.

I climbed 800 feet up the side of a steep mountain in South Africa, 4 months after knee surgery, to take a 25 yard shoot at this Mountain Reedbuck

My jump gun is my 404 Express. This a .416 wildcat built by Fred Barnes. I blow a 300 Win Mag case out and use 300 gr. Barnes X bullets. I walk the shallow creek bottoms and weed patches out in wheat fields and jump shoot whitetails like flushing quail. That big bullet punches a nice clean hole through the deer and makes them sick real fast.

What I like about these three rifles is most of the time you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Half the deer isn't tossed out as pulverized blood scraps. Hit a shoulder bone square and that's not true.

My passion right now is the Martini Henry in 577/450. I used one of these in South Africa also.

The rifle is a full length Military rifle, but I still hunted with it. I have a Sporter Martini by I.Hollis in .450 Musket #2 that I am restoring that I want to hunt with if I can make it shoot.