Author Topic: Deer hunting - factory load question (Read 1129 times)

Bajaye · « **on:** January 19, 2005, 02:55:57 AM »

I was looking through the Winchester Ammo catalog last night and was wondering what the realistic difference between some of their Supreme ammunition is. Specifically, hunting deer in central Minnesota -- where my absolute longest shot is in the range of 350 yards and the shortest probably no less than 80 yards -- what would be the advantages or disadvantages to using the Accutip CT, Ballistic Silvertip or Failsafe? It's not that I think any are necessary, but I'm wondering what the realistic differences might be. I shoot a 30-06. Thanks!

marylandeer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2005, 04:35:52 AM »

Bajaye, I also use a .30-06 for deer hunting. I don't think the premium bullets will give you much of an advantage at all (IMHO). These (Supreme bullets) are mainly designed for the magnum calibers. Where they start to shine is when they are travelling at or over 3000 feet per second. The .30-06 with factory ammo using 150 to 180 grain bullets don't travel at 3000 F.P.S. it is very close, about 2900 at the muzzle but still under. By the time the bullet gets out to 80 yards or wherever the deer is it's even slower.
They do make these bullets to higher standards than the standard bullets which will/may lead to less bullet failures.
The main thing is accuracy if you can without a doubt place a Rem. core lokt or Win. power point or any other decent standard bullet in a deers vitals you will have a dead deer.
I personally use the Federal premium 165 grain Sierra Game King just because it shoots the best groups for me, yes they work great on deer to.
WELCOME TO THE FORUMS
I am sure you will get a lot of opinions on this subject but this is my take on Premium bullets.
Here's a good article you may want to read, even though it written in 2001

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_47/ai_78900534

Old Cane · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2005, 08:18:20 AM »

what marylander said. it's the whole ford/chevy, camero/corvette, carb/fuel injector arguemnet. first, does it group well? second, does it kill? remember, guns don't kill....well placed shots do. I hear about bullet failure but they were always recovered from a dead animal. I guess my definition of failure is different than theirs. if it's dead, where did it fail? the only concern I would have is if hunting something that can hunt me back. then you want what every recomends.

Zachary · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:00:02 AM »

Whereas I agree with the general premise of what you guys at talking about, actually there is a big difference between the bullets initially mentioned.

The Silvertip is a conventional bullet - nothing really fancy about it. The FailSafe, on the other hand, is kinda like an X-Bullet in that it not only retains almost 100% of it's weight, but it penetrates (or overpenetrates) like heck. The Accutip has a plastic insert (which is so popular these days), but does not retain weight like the Failsafe.

Again, what both of you are saying is generally correct, but there is a noticeable difference when the bullet actually hits and goes through the animal. On deer, the Failsafe is, in my opinion, just too much and thus overkill. The Silvertip, as a conventional bullet, is fine, but tends to shed a lot of its weight at closer ranges. Pretty much the same goes for the accutip.

Again, there really is no real practical difference in trajectory or energy in the bullets, but there is such a terminal performance difference.

Of course, find a bullet that groups the best in your gun, but make sure that the bullet is designed to perform well on game.

In my 30-06, I use the 165 grain X Bullet, which is overkill on deer, but a good compromise on hogs. It groups 1MOA in my rifle.

Also, why are you hung up on Winchester factory loads? For your purposes, I would seriously look at Federal's 165 grain Nosler Partition. It expands reliably at longer ranges, yet penetrates very well. Again, if this load doesn't group well in your rifle, then find something else, but it has been pretty accurate for a lot of .30-06 shooters that I know.

Zachary

Bajaye · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2005, 10:14:59 AM »

I should perhaps clarify my question. I just happened to pick up a Winchester ammo catalog the other day at Gander Mountain and was simply looking through it. I have plenty of hang ups in life but Winchester ammo is not one of them. Just had their catalog, and was just interested in understanding what the premium ammo is designed to do and whether it's a gimmick or really worth the extra money.

Zachary · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2005, 03:45:50 PM »

Premium ammo usually just means premium bullets. That's not to say that all premium bullets work and perform the same way, but they are definately pricier than your conventional bullets.

Bullets aside, perhaps "premium" ammo has tighter tolerances, meaning that powder is more carefully measured and poured, etc. Ammo that has less velocity deviation means more consistent groups. Again, I say "perhaps" because I'm not quite sure.

I don't like moly coated bullets, and a lot of Winchester's premium line is moly coated.

Zachary

Old Cane · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2005, 05:28:46 AM »

I just read an article in AR about the reduced loads on the market now. For a baseline he measured the Cheap Federal Classic ammo on a 30-06 with a SD of 8fps. I'm thinking the "premium" is mostly for the bullet. They seem to have pretty good QA on even the "cheap" ammo looks like. The SD on the reduced power loads was several times higher though.

tbmaker · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2005, 04:27:56 PM »

Go with what ever shoots the best. If the standard stuff shoots tight then save the money and keep shooting.
The premium's shine when you draw one of those "once in a lifetime moose permits" or decide to go out of state for bigger critters. Then a premium 180gr. will take care of most critters, especially with not quite perfect shot.

jvs · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2005, 10:07:26 PM »

I like picking up spent Premium casings at the range for later reloading, the casings are a little thicker, which means they can usually take a couple more reloads than cheaper ammo.

I suppose the Primer may be a little better, the powder measured closer and the lead composition a little different.

I get to watch bench-rest shooters reload between competitions and they are pretty picky when it comes to their supplies. They will weigh every bullet and make sure each is exactly the same, not a tenth or half grain different than the rest. The same with powder measuring. But then those guys even control how deep the firing pin dimple is on the primer.

If more care is taken by ammo manufacturers with premium loads , along with better parts, then they call it "Premium". Face it, the only difference between Regular Unleaded gas and Premium gas is additives and price. But unlike cars which may require better gas, there is no mass produced firearm that requires Premium Bullets to perform.

Either way, there is no industry standard for making a bullet a "Premium", each can have their own guidelines. If you reload and use comparable parts, and make each one Exactly as the others, you too can make "Premium" bullets.

For me the cost involved far outweighs the performance of a Premium bullet. I shoot almost anything for hunting.

clyde72 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2005, 07:33:22 PM »

Just read an article on the New (not yet available as far as I can tell) Federal Fusion ammo.

Its a bonded bullet that does not fragment. The author shot a pronghorn from shoulder to rear and it left a 3/4" wound track and no frags were found. Another shot one in the shoulder and the bullet was recovered and it had expanded to .85 dia (started as a .30 cal) and no fraging.
Federal says this is not going to be expensive ammo. Not sure what they call expensive though.

Wish I could remember what gun/hunting mag I read this in, a fellow avid accumlator of guns brought it into work this week. Federal is going to offer this in all standard "Deer" calibers. The author said it would be his "Deer" ammo of choice from now on.

leverfan · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2005, 07:54:04 PM »

Quote from: clyde72

Just read an article on the New (not yet available as far as I can tell) Federal Fusion ammo....Wish I could remember what gun/hunting mag I read this in....

March/April issue of Rifle Shooter. The bullet won't be available for reloaders for a while. It's made using the same basic technology as the Speer Gold Dot handgun bullets, the jacket is plated on so that it just can't come off.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:23:38 AM »

While I generally agree that factory ammo will work just fine for most of us in most situations, I do have a couple of concerns about the old "dead is dead" argument. First, as an ethical hunter, I believe it is important that we kill as quickly as possible. Unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering should be avoided. Second, I hunt for meat. I don't want the meat destroyed. The kind of wound inflicted can have a real impact on the meat. Of course, my considerations are best dealt with by proper shot placement, but you don't want to use match or ball ammo on a deer hunt. You do want to know how your ammunition is supposed to work on impact. That will help you decide whether to take a shot or let the animal go.

.270 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2005, 10:37:15 PM »

Quote from: Ron Byers

While I generally agree that factory ammo will work just fine for most of us in most situations, I do have a couple of concerns about the old "dead is dead" argument. First, as an ethical hunter, I believe it is important that we kill as quickly as possible. Unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering should be avoided. Second, I hunt for meat. I don't want the meat destroyed. The kind of wound inflicted can have a real impact on the meat. Of course, my considerations are best dealt with by proper shot placement, but you don't want to use match or ball ammo on a deer hunt. You do want to know how your ammunition is supposed to work on impact. That will help you decide whether to take a shot or let the animal go.

I agree 100% a bullet that breaks up does to much damage to the eatable meat and a bullet that fails to expand is equally as bad. Shot placement is the key!

Don Fischer · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2005, 01:24:23 PM »

I know you guy's that love premiun bullet's will think I'm nut's but premiun bullet's are designed to make money, period! I don't use them but, the Remington core-loc has been around for a long time and has killed a lot of game.

Now if you really need a premium bullet, someone tell me why. Just on the North American contentent, Fred bear has killed everything with an arrow! Your telling me that a properly selected bullet for caliber used will fail? Nosler bullet's were created because John Nosler had a bullet fail on a moose, claim's it blew up on the mud caked on the shoulder. John was shooting a 300 H&H Mag but the bullet he used isn't listed. Perhaps he used the wrong bullet? The mud on the shoulder, how much must have been there? Maybe it wasn't really mud, maybe it was concrete.

Try this, go out and stick a bunch of mud an some type of backstop and find out how muck mud you can, first stick and then how much it takes to blow up a good bullet in a 300 H&H mag.

You want premium bullet's, shoot them, I'm all for it. But get real on their real purpose: IT'S TO MAKE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!

beemanbeme · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2005, 04:53:14 AM »

I'm gonna pretty much agree with Don Fischer. I also think that the idea of a "premium" bullet can cause a shooter to overextend himself with the shots he takes as he thinks the bullet is gonna compensate for poor marksmanship or a poor angle. Kinda like the fellow that buys a magnum because he can't hit the side of a barn from the inside. I do feel that the premium bullets have a place but not shooting deer with a muzzle velocity below @3000fps. I'm going to hazard a guess that there are more deer killed each year with Rem Core Lokt bullets than any other. And, there are more deer killed with Rem CL's than all of the "premium" bullets combined.
I think a lot of folks would do better if they would visualize the bullet's path thru the animal's body. And consider where the bullet is going to come out and what it will pass thru enroute and not so much as to where they are hitting it on the near side. "shoot for the exit hole" so to speak.

lilabner · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2005, 06:19:10 AM »

To a certain extent, I think your need for a "premium" bullet depends on what cartridge you're using and what game you are hunting. You hunt deer with a 30-06. I wouldn't go for a premium bullet because you have enough bullet diameter and weight there to take out a deer with a decent hit even if things don't hold together perfectly. I've shoot a lot of deer with plain old Hornady Spire Points and no problem. On the other hand, with a .243 I would use a premium bullet. You need reliable expansion because otherwise you're making a very small hole. You need weight retention for the bullet because it only weighs 100 gr. to begin with and it has to penetrate, even if you hit a shoulder bone.

flintlock · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2005, 06:38:32 AM »

I've killed a bunch of deer (at least 75) with a plain old CoreLokt 100gr in .243....

Grubbs · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2005, 10:09:36 AM »

In my guns I use the following for whitetail and mulies, and we have had great results:

7mm-08 Rem Core-Lokt 140 gr
7mag Hornady Heavy mag 139 gr sst
270 Hornady Light mag 130 gr.

PS......I hate ballistic tips....have had three come apart with the 7mag up until about 3 yrs ago when I vowed to never shoot them again.