Looking for black powder shotshell loads.

[shotgunner]

I have always wanted to go duck hunting with a damascus hammer gun and black powder loads. I almost started when the steel shot put an end to it. Now I think with Bismuth shot, I would like to try it. Has anyone any experence with black powder shotshell loads? I would appreciate some input. Shotgunner

[Critter]

What exactly do you need to know?  I have loaded thousands of B.P. shotshells over the years for hunting and CAS.  It's fairly easy and easy to tailor the loads to suit your situation.  I have never loaded with Bismuth, either with smokeless or B.P. so I can't offer any advise there.  

My basic load is 70 grs of FFg, a 1/8" overpowder wad, 1/2" lubed cushion wad, overshot card, 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 oz of hard lead shot all stuffed in a Rem STS or Win AA hull.  Primers don't seem to matter much, I use Remingtons for everything.   All my guns have a modern chamber 2 3/4 or 3 " so I just star crimp the hulls like a regular factory shell.

Your particular shotgun might be short chambered 2 1/2" or 2 5/8" so you might have to shorten your hulls to match, roll crimp and adjust your load.  The cushion wads are easy to cut to any thickness thus easy to adjust your load.

I also use a regular plastic wad from time to time, mostly for CAS.  65 gr of FFg, red Winchester AA12R wad or equivalent, 1 to 1 /18 oz of shot and crimp.  It works great, however it leaves a nice bunch of melted plastic in your bore.  It's easy to clean out but different if you've never done it before.

[Dave K]

Critter has it down pat. Also like he says, the chambers may be 2 1/2" or 2 5/8". No big deal at all! Cut the hulls to your chamber length and if you are not roll crimping, use an overshot card and crimp normally. This is called a "Hartin" crimp. You will have WAY to much fun shooting the old girl! :-D

[fffffg]

what gauge shotgun do you have.. ??   dave...

[Dave K]

Right now I am loading for 12ga.(actually 7 of them) because I had sold my 20ga. But, it is the same, just different dia.

[shotgunner]

With larger shot you don't need high velosity, over 1,200 fps, but I would like to know what to expect. I have loaded many thousands of smokless loads in thr AA and STS, wouldn't the Federal hull provide more internal space? I used them for Steel shot loads for a while. Last question, do you put these together on a single stage press and add the powder by hand? Is it possible to use a charge bar with FFG? Shotgunner

[Dave K]

All my loads are between 1100 and 1200fps. I would not use the press for the powder drop. I would dip a measure into a tub of powder. For shot drop and crimp, use the press. I use a Mec. Jr. All I have ever used are AA and STS hulls. Many people use them here so they are easy to pick up. I would NOT use shot cups, but use the fibre cushions. It will eliminate the plastic build up in the barrel. Besides these old breech loaders are choked tight anyhow. almost too tight.

[fffffg]

yes use the federal paper hulls,, they are shunned by most bp shooters becouse you will get very few reloads and then will have a hole in hull.. one shot usually.. blow on the end to see if you youve got a pinhole..  the paper hulls will give less pressure and pattern much better..black powder should start off low pressure and burn down the barrel for best results..  if you have choked barrels and want to use bismuth  you can use powder,..  nitro card (12 guage),, ..lubricated wool felt wad( i like yellow tompson center  lube),,, and number 4 bismuth for average sized ducks..  this will give you max room un hull  for bismuth..  if you have enough space you can put cork between the lubed wad and nitro card to help shells keep longer in hot weather.. as with all lubed shells, lube can get into the powder during hot days..   pack the powder and wads  on the press to about 45-50 pounds to get better  pattern and lower pressure..  dont pack the shot.  if you have cylinder bore youll need to use fiber wad over the nitro card..  make it all fit,,,, and pattern , pattern, pattern..   each 10 degrees will give different pressure, differnt velocity, different pattern.. so if your a cold weather shooter make sure your velicity is keeping upwith the jones..  you can probably go to 3f in cold weather, again no loose powder loads..  id use a chronograph with damascus and use it to figure possible dangerous pressures by watching velocity..  its a poor way to go about it but safeer than nothing.. ive killed a lot of ducks, jump shooting them with 16 and 12 gauge flintlock with number 4 bismuth, close range and probably below 1000 fps in below zero weather..  but you have to know your pattern at the temp your shooting.  with choke it wont be as  much of a problem as with cylinder bore...     good luck dave..

[Critter]

fffffg,
I'm curious why the paper hulls provide lower pressures and better patterns than the plastic hulls?  I don't get more than 2 loadings out of a plastic hull either so thats a nonissue but if I can get better patterns by changing hulls I might be interested.  I'm not doubting you but I can't fathom how the kind of hull you use has anything to do with how the gun patterns, unless it's because of the lower pressures.  In any case fill me in pard you got me curious. :grin:

[shotgunner]

I have not used black powder yet, but I do know that with smokless you get lower pressure in a Federal plastic hull and even lower with paper. Some skeet shooters like the paper hull to keep recoil at a minimum. You do not get more than one reload with them. It is the reason that Federal still makes them, less pressure less recoil. I will try this and let you guys know what I find. How about Pyrodex? 777? Shot

[shotgunner]

I just tried my first shots. I loaded 50, 60 and 70 grains of Pyrodex ( by volume ) in a Federal plastic hull with 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz of shot. I tried them in an old single shot, I have a small collection of Savage 219-220s. It was late in the day and getting dark. The smoke and fire were fun. %0 and 60 grain loads were very mild, 70 grains felt like it was doing something, still not recoiling heavy but moderately. Preliminary shooting show useful 30 yard patterns from the full choke barrel. This is all admitedly very casual, but I can see I am on the right track. I will get out the chronograph in the daylight. Guess I had better shoot through a plywood shield. I can see that some of the old very full choke guns will be more useful. Turns out I had several boxes of Federal wads in several thicknesses out in the barn. I did not use an over shot wad in the plastic hull, any reason I might want to? Shot....

[fffffg]

critter,... paper offers very little resistence to opening.. its a big job to open a plastic hull with a knife.. paper peels right open..  if you have a lot of powder built up burning before it busts loose from the hull pressures will rise. increaseing chances of a blown pattern..  not all maybe but possible one in 5, or one in 10 whatever.. .   total velocity would be nice to know which does give the best  velocity preformance with  plastic or paper..  i do know that  on hot days the plastic will actually start to melt with repeated fireings..    some guys are packing lube in the openings in the base of plastic hulls, ive not tried this but it is an alternative to try, ..   plastic from wads and black powder can build up in the bore as you shoot -constricting the bore with consecutive shots and increasing  pressures.. the bad part of this is it will change patterns..  paper hulls, nitro cards, lubed wool felt and cork have given me great results(in choked gUn) in all kinds of weather and patterned on paper up to 90 degrees for competitioin... in the short time i competed with this combo ive had no problem competing against shooters using plastic hulls... in hot weather and about 8 rounds thier shooting goes kaput.. but as i say the lube in the base or other measures could stop this i dont know..  but any load must be patterned. not just the first shot..  but up to the number you willl be using.  i patterned the first, fifth, tenth, twentyith and sometimes 30th round when considereing the load for competition..   hot loads are the ignorant side of shotgunning.. what is needed is good patterns, and good accurate shooting..   this will bring home the meat or trophy what ever your after.. dave..

[Critter]

Thanks Dave, that makes sense to me.  Next time I'm out at the gunshops I'll look for some paper hulls to try out.  For CAS I could care less about pattern as long as I know it's enough for a knockdown at 12 yards.  I'll try your method out and see if I can chrony similar loads paper vs plastic and report back.