Author Topic: How I will approach reloading and sticking cases (Read 921 times)

bajabill · « **on:** January 12, 2005, 04:01:10 AM »

I found that my sticking cases has been associated with brass that has grown to the point that headspace relief is gone or negative. So I sort my fired brass by chambering the empties. If the action closes and locks and the case ejects, I neck size. If the action is not able to close and lock or the case sticks, I full length size. I think this way I should get a couple or a few neck sizings between FLS-ing.

Also, I OS neck turned some pieces and after firing I can slip/push a bullet into the neck. Before I could not without some mechanical advantage such as a press. So I have a tight chamber I guess in the neck region and will have to OS neck turn the rest of my brass pile. This is a 243.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2005, 12:02:59 PM »

Me thinks you're using the wrong fix for the problem.

Have you measured the length of your cases? I suspect just maybe your cases have grown in length and need to be trimmed back to within spec. If this is the case all of the things you are doing are of no value and you're really pushing the envelope to disaster.

When a case grows too long it can't properly realease the bullet and pressure builds. It can build to a level that will ruin your rifle and perhaps your life.

Major · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2005, 01:53:27 PM »

Yup like GB says, check the case length too. It sure cant hurt and then you will know you are good to go. :toast:

bajabill · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2005, 05:22:08 PM »

I trim cases to length everytime I load them. With the Lee trimmer its easy and quick, and if they are not too long, no trimming occurs.

I measure the headspace length and there is a magic length that is exceeded by all of my cartridges than prevent the action from locking closed. I think the cartidge is allowed to grow a little with any flexibility in the action locking that continues to grow and neck sizing will never corect for this. Full length sizing to set the shoulder back every loading will realy work the brass in a few loadings. I noticed much more thinout in the cases near the base in 3 loadings (with FLS) than I do in 7 loadings from a bolt action 30-06. Im using the stoney point comparator and RCBS case master for measuring.

JPH45 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2005, 05:27:53 PM »

What case are you reloading? I've got 30-30 brass I've neck sized only since firing the factory load 6 times that is showing no growth and is not sticking, but the diameter of the case at the shoulder is noticably larger than unfired factory, yet it chambers and ejects just fine.

bajabill · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2005, 05:33:33 PM »

safetysheriff · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2005, 06:18:27 PM »

I'd like to know what your recipe is for this rifle....because I have some strong opinions about this caliber. I load for it, starting recently, for a friend's Model 700 BDL. I've loaded two kinds of powder for his rifle, but have not gotten any fired brass back from him yet.

What is/are your load(s)?

Are you keeping track of how many times you are trimming those cases? That's important, you know. Are you open to the suggestion to partial-length resize so that shoulder setback on your brass is absolutely minimal? Do you know how to do that?(no insult intended). Have you got an expander ball that may need polishing (I do mine with 600 grit machinist's paper) so that it will not drag on the neck inside and stretch the case? Is your method of sorting brass valid? I tried that for a while in my Handi' and came to the conclusion that it was not......because I started getting reloads that didn't want to chamber when neck-sized. :oops:

I'm now sold on the idea of Full-Length sizing almost all of my brass while lubing my cases with Mobil 1 Synthetic, or, of all things, that cheaper Wal Mart synthetic that is super slippery in the 10w-30 variation. That pure synthetic stuff is absolutely amazing at cutting down on the friction. I remove it after sizing the brass with a salt and white-vinegar mix, then washing with lemon-type Ajax dish soap and Hot water.

I've 'run my mouth enough' :shock: .......hope it helped.

SS'

ps: that vinegar and salt stuff is a recipe from the NRA.

bajabill · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2005, 06:41:33 PM »

Ive not cycled thru many variants yet

70 gr sierra blitzkings - dont like them because I cant get close to the lands
75 gr horn HP, 39.4 gr varget - not maxed out
75 gr horn vmax, 39.4 gr varget, just starting out with this one

I have dabbled with partial sizing, but without using shims between the die and shell holder, you are guessing at how much you will set back until you actually do it and measure. I want to neck size as much as possible because I dont really like the lube/clean chore.

Ive noticed failure to close after firing, before sizing, or after neck sizing with a Lee collet die, so it is not due to the expander die pulling the neck on the downstroke. The brass that is too long is only about .002 longer in the HS measurement than brass that does chamber.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2005, 09:03:28 PM »

bajbill:

Have you done a chamber cast on your Handi yet with cerrosafe?

Mac

bajabill · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2005, 02:49:28 AM »

No,

I have compared some of my dimensions to some dimensions I was given for go/no go gages and that did not indicate I have a headspace problem per spec.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2005, 05:23:38 AM »

bajabill:

I know...but your chamber could still be out of spec...and still headspace correctly...

Mac

bajabill · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2005, 06:22:29 AM »

thats true,

But, would there be anything gleaned from that analysis that would be directly related to brass that grows in the headspace dimension. I think the flexibility of the action allows the headspace of the chamber to grow under pressure, the brass assumes this dimension then springs back a little. The brass is now longer than before and potentially longer than the un-pressurized headspace dimension. This is when the cartridge prevents the action from locking closed. My barrel locks pretty darn close to the front face of the reciever when closed, I never measured this with a feeler gage though.

superhornet · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2005, 07:08:24 AM »

Safetysheriff---Just out of curiosity, how often do you change that oil?? Ever 3000 rounds or three months..

JPH45 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2005, 12:31:05 PM »

What, if any trouble do you have with full length sized cases? I had an Arisaki that my father in law had rebarreled to 30-06. I tried necksizing with the full length dies, but found that the sizing operation would actually move the shoulder forward slightly and the bolt would not close on what appeared to be a perfectly neck sized case. I wonder if you are not having the same or similar trouble. Try some full length sized cases to see what results you get. Also with the Lee collet die, you should feel the csae stop agains the die, then a little more pressure and there will be a tad more movement of the case in the die. This is described in the instructions. I wonder if this is to reset the shoulder. If you have concerns about the headspace of hte rifle, midway sells go, no go gauges pretty cheap or you should be able to have a smith check it out for you. But I'd try full length sizing first.

I first began necksizing only in my 30-30 in the hopes of improving the accuracy. Never could find that it did one lick of good. I'm not convinced that chambers which are cut to nominal sizes for the spec, will benifit from this practice. I suspect that a chamber with a tight neck whihc requires fitting of the brass benefits from such work, but run of the mill rifles? Nah. It may be that neck sizing will improve the case life, but a case that has been fired 10 or so times at full pressure has seen it's use. It is not like the 243 Winnie is so rare and brass so costly that squeezing every last shot from it matters.

You can probably get as much improved accuracy from weigh sorting your cases and deburring the flash hole as you can get fom neck sizing. Playing around with different primers can improve things too. My 357 Max shows a decided preference for CCI primers.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2005, 07:58:34 PM »

Quote from: superhornet

Safetysheriff---Just out of curiosity, how often do you change that oil?? Ever 3000 rounds or three months..

I find the oil is good for more than 3,000 miles; but your milage may vary!

Hey, it may sound a little odd, but it works well, is much cheaper than the RCBS stuff I started with, probably etches a little bit into the brass case to protect it from rust -- if left on the brass for a few days (I sometimes do that), and it's good on pancakes :eek: :eek: . You'll never get 'clogged up' ! :shock:

You can see that I'm right ! :wink:

SS'

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2005, 09:01:03 PM »

Quote from: bajabill

thats true,

But, would there be anything gleaned from that analysis that would be directly related to brass that grows in the headspace dimension. I think the flexibility of the action allows the headspace of the chamber to grow under pressure, the brass assumes this dimension then springs back a little. The brass is now longer than before and potentially longer than the un-pressurized headspace dimension. This is when the cartridge prevents the action from locking closed. My barrel locks pretty darn close to the front face of the reciever when closed, I never measured this with a feeler gage though.

First off...if your receiver is flexing enough to allow the cases to stretch that much...then I would send the rifle back in...of all the Handi's I've owned...I have never encounterd this phenomenon...seems to me if the receiver was flexing enough to allow your cases to grow as much as you say...then you would be having exsessively flattened primers and totally out of round case mouths and at the web area..

You think that it's flexing because your having to trim...you said...

Quote

I trim cases to length everytime I load them. With the Lee trimmer its easy and quick, and if they are not too long, no trimming occurs.

Trimming cases everytime?...back to what lenght? Of course your going to get thinning if your trimming everytime...cases can only grow so-much before you wind up with insepiant casehead seperation.. also..if your case mouth is coming in contact with the abuttment of the leade...this will give you fits too....

The reason for the chamber cast is to give you accurate chamber dimensions with-in 24 hours...then you'll know exactly what is going on in there...and how to set-up better for it...

Mac

bajabill · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2005, 03:10:39 AM »

I stated that I trim often because the initial responses seemed to think lack of trimming was the problem, or maybe long cases were the problem and that extra length could be solved by timming. I do not agree with that intitial assessment. I also dont believe trimming causes the case to thin out. That is caused by plastic flow of the metal under pressure. The flow is toward the unrestrained end, the neck. Its going that direction regardless of trimming the end. I use the lee trimmer which simply encorporates a tool to limit the depth of trim to the same length everytime. Even if that tool is the wrong length, all of my brass would be trimmed to the same length. The lee collet neck sizing die should not work the entire shoulder. Perhaps it could get the transition radius if that portion was pushed out far enough to be where the cylindrical neck were supposed to be.

Please dont get the impression that I am closed minded to any of these replies, my responses are an indication that I am truely considering each one, and carefully.

drummerboy · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2005, 04:08:28 AM »

Friend of mine had a H&R in .308 and some hand loads that were too hot! They were flr cases but every shot stuck! We had to pop out every case with a cleaning rod. The factory loads all extracted! The Safetyshariff mentoined a few paragrapghes ago about your hand loads. I have only been reloading for seven years but I will never forget that expierience Good luck man. Drummerboy

dognot · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2005, 05:32:49 AM »

Trim your brass and use Lee Collet dies, Done fixed in sticking issue