Author Topic: Exotic species, canned hunts (Read 1888 times)

John Y Cannuck · « **on:** January 09, 2005, 02:43:31 AM »

How do you feel about exotics, and canned hunts?

Hunt African game, Russian boar etc. at home for example?

Myself, although I'd love to hunt these animals, the idea of the animal being enclosed, just takes the shine off the hunt. Wouldn't matter if it were a 1000 acre enclosure, it just would bug me that much.

daddywpb · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2005, 04:03:05 PM »

Personally, I don't call that hunting. It's shooting, not hunting. I couldn't do it myself, and I don't think that anyone who does should call themselves a hunter.

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2005, 04:47:54 PM »

Love to do it. I don't really use the term "canned hunt". Some of the places I've gone could I presume be called that. I sure didn't care for them and left without shooting.

It's really all in the experience you're looking for and your skill level. I have a LOONG post on the Exotics Forum somewhere about it. Not gonna try to rehash it here.

But those who haven't ever tried it and make judgements about it are blowing smoke and need to go try it or get a life. You just flat don't know what you're talking about if you've never tried it.

And trying it one place has zero meaning for the next place. There are good and there are bad. Which depends on a lot of things. You can't just lump them all in together as either good or bad.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2005, 05:27:42 PM »

I think it is up to that individual. It is not anyone's place to put down someone for wanting to go on a hunting preserve or canned hunt as you have called it. I went on a boar hunt in Tennessee, I worked harder going up and down hills all day than I do when I go out for free ranging deer. As Graybeard said "There are good and there are bad. Which depends on a lot of things. You can't just lump them all in together as either good or bad."

daddywpb · « **Reply #4 on:** February 06, 2005, 10:40:00 PM »

It's a matter of personal ethics. I won't hunt animals that aren't free ranging, and I don't have to try it first to know that I wouldn't like it. I've seen people posing with their trophies on TV shows with 15 foot high fences in the background. No thanks. I'd rather just go to Publix and get my meat.

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2005, 06:21:43 AM »

Yes, actually you would have to experience it to KNOW not guess.

Now mind you I'm not referring to some tiny piece of land where the fence is always in sight of you. I'm also not referring to some place where the numbers of game are kept artifically high thru a massive feeding program.

Some people say that no matter the size of the land inside a fence it can't be fair chase if there is a fence. Sorry but to that I can only say that is one of the more stupid comments I've read. Yes stupid not uninformed. All things have boundaries. Even the Continent of Africa has boundaries. The animals there can go no further than the oceans surrounding it. So if we take the comment to its most ridiculous end if a fence were place around the perimeter of the African continent then hunting there would no longer be fair chase because of the fence. Yet the oceans are the same as that fence.

There are enclosures there and in TX also with many many thousands to tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of acres. There is game in there that will live their entire lives without ever seeing the fence. Therefore the fence has no bearing on them or whether it is fair chase.

Now compare that to a small area of 200-300 yards over crowded with game. Is that fair chase? Not by many folk's definition. Not by mine.

Yet change the circumstances a wee bit and maybe so.

Once in an 80 acre enclosure in TX I was there with handgun. I was after gold medal catalina goats and corisican rams. Both were there but were so tame I could have kicked them in the butt if I were so inclined. I chose not to shoot and to leave. BUT it was thick. There were two mouflon rams in there that were so wary and used the cover to such good effect that had they been my quarry I'm confident I would never have taken them using the iron sighted handgun I had on that hunt. So would hunting them even in that small enclosure one on one have been fair chase? I think so.

Until you've seen it you're blind to what the reality is. If a person has their mind made up and they do not wish to be confused by hearing the facts so be it. But that doesn't mean that person has the knowledge to tell others that it's unfair to the game.

Are there places where the term canned hunt could reasonably be applied? You betcha. But just because there is a fence DOES NOT make it automatically not fair chase.

dukkillr · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:18:46 AM »

I tend to support the Boone and Crockett rules on this:

For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Clubs® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible:

I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the purpose of pursuit and shooting;
II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
III. Use of electronic communication devices, artificial lighting, or electronic light intensifying devices;
IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape-proof fenced enclosures;
V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or artificial medium;
VIII. On another hunters license;
IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations or tribal lands;

Found at http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_affidavit.asp?area=bgRecords

I also think that the ethics statement, "Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter, the hunted, or the environment." also comes into play with high fence hunts. I tend to believe that high fence hunts are the biggest risk to our hunting heritage of anything else the antis can find.

That being said, as long as it's legal, i'm not going to try and stop someone from doing what they think is fun. If they think shooting a big dumb buffalo in a pen is fun, well, this is America...

Rmouleart · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2005, 04:27:34 AM »

Ok a pen is not what I call hunting of sort, they need some room to run and be able to hide, but there is preserves that have huge spreads,as far as you can walk all day and still never walking it all, I consider that more of free range, because they can elude you and have plenty of room to hide;) I have hunted a few good preserves and enjoyed it very much, Still stalking and pushing methods are needed at times. There is a very reputable preserve here in NH, Its name is Corbin preserve, you need to be well off to be a member now a days, Ruger had some stock in the preserve, live down the street from the preserve. Years ago when Corbin was alive he has all kinds of famous people hunting there, Price of whales hunted there for years, and Teddy Roosevelt and many others, Corbin was partly responsible for the come back of the Buffalo, back when the buff was in trouble, Corbin gave many head of buff help the preservation of the Buffalo out west. Corbin has all kinds of species of animals ranging from buff, elk, moose, wild goats to wild boar,nearly five square miles of woods to hunt, very large preserve, I sometimes hunt the outside of the preserve maybe to get a shot at a escape boar, does happen often, those boars are escape artist's

I have not see one yet, but have seen a few shot in the area, Boars can survive just fine on there own. In all its all preference, Put it this way I don't want to be at a stand and see a cage with the animal I'm going to hunt, then see the door open to release him near bye, thats not my cup of tea, I need to have some sort of hunt chasing free range animals accustom to the area. I guess everyone has there limit to what is free range also, Last preserve was Coldbrook hunts in upstate NY, Huge place for the boars to run, hunted it in the winter time, on a huge mountain ridge, allot of humping to get to the boars, need to be in good shape,and believe me hogs don't come to you to play, they know your hunting them, and they do there best to get away and hide. Table fair was great as well, good luck have fun, hunt safe. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

glock29 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2005, 09:45:45 AM »

I personally have not had the opportunity to do this, but would not mind giving it a try. Chances of success on the ranches in my area are much higher.
When I go hunting, the number one factor that I use to judge success or not is if I actually SHOOT something.
I get precious few days to hunt & I do not do it to just "be out in the woods with nature"; I could do that & NOT waste the money on the license.
For me, nothing in the bag=WASTE OF TIME !

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2005, 11:09:29 AM »

Quote from: glock29

I personally have not had the opportunity to do this, but would not mind giving it a try. Chances of success on the ranches in my area are much higher.
When I go hunting, the number one factor that I use to judge success or not is if I actually SHOOT something.
I get precious few days to hunt & I do not do it to just "be out in the woods with nature"; I could do that & NOT waste the money on the license.
For me, nothing in the bag=WASTE OF TIME !

I think the same way. I like to hunt and contrary to what most hunters say. " It is not the game and killing an animal, but being in nature" I have to say, I want to get something. I go out hunting to get an animal. If I want to see nature, I will go hiking and take a camera. But when I have a gun and I am hunting, I want to kill something.

acearch72 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2005, 03:01:24 PM »

GB don't you just love it when people have these opinions about something when they ain't never experienced it. Sort of like I know that I can't stand the taste of brocoli but, NO, I have never tasted it.

If John Y Cannuck & daddywpb were blindfolded and dropped into the middle of a 1000 acre high fenced ranch without knowing there was a fence around it, they would not know the difference in hunting inside a fence or outside of it.

I once went on an Axis hunt in Texas. I hunted a 4500 acre high fenced ranch. While I saw some REALLY good Axis I never got a good shot no matter how hard I worked at it. After 3 days of hard hunting the outfitter guy told me that he knew another ranch that had some good Axis and suggested we try there. This other ranch was about 500 acres and low fenced. The ranch owner said that there were quite a few free ranging Axis that crossed his ranch, along with qute a few gold metal bucks. He told us where they crossed his property and when we could see them. So we waited around until he said it was time and then we drove out in HIS pickup because they were used to HIS pickup and parked. Sure enough, after about 30 minutes here they come walking along just like he said they would. There were 3 good bucks that just walked by HIS truck close enough that I didn't need a gun, I could have just cut their throat with my knife.

So after 3 days of HARD hunting on this "non-ethical" hunting preserve without getting a good shot, I go to this "ethical" low fenced ranch and after a long wait of 30 minutes (sitting in an airconditioned truck) have 3 gold metal bucks walk up to within 10 feet of the ranch owner's truck and look at me. So which of these hunts was "ethical" and which was not?

I would have been proud of any Axis that I could have taken on that high fenced (unethical) ranch, because that was a HUNT. I busted my A$$ without success, which was OK. There was NO WAY that I could have been proud of the Axis on that low fenced (ethical) ranch, even though they were certainly gold metal quality, because that would have been SHOOTING, not hunting.

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2005, 06:29:47 PM »

Yup, folks who put down something they've never experienced as bad while having no first hand knowledge always amazes me. Like you've I've had similar experiences. High fence doesn't always mean easy. Low fence or no fence doesn't always mean difficult. There's just a lot more to it than that.

Quote

Sort of like I know that I can't stand the taste of brocoli but, NO, I have never tasted it.

I have tasted it. Yuck, gag, choke. Oh that was AWFUL. Never again.

Sgt Mike · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2005, 02:17:02 AM »

Seems to me the size of the enclosure would make the difference whether I would hunt there or not. Any guaranteed kill would go against my logic of fair chase.
Mike

glock29 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2005, 05:59:14 AM »

If I actually have to PAY to hunt somewhere I want a guaranteed kill or NO PAY.
I don't hunt to bust my rump, I hunt to actually SHOOT SOMETHING !
Anything short of that to me is WORTHLESS !

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2005, 03:18:18 PM »

Quote from: acearch72

GB don't you just love it when people have these opinions about something when they ain't never experienced it. Sort of like I know that I can't stand the taste of brocoli but, NO, I have never tasted it.

If John Y Cannuck & daddywpb were blindfolded and dropped into the middle of a 1000 acre high fenced ranch without knowing there was a fence around it, they would not know the difference in hunting inside a fence or outside of it.

I once went on an Axis hunt in Texas. I hunted a 4500 acre high fenced ranch. While I saw some REALLY good Axis I never got a good shot no matter how hard I worked at it. After 3 days of hard hunting the outfitter guy told me that he knew another ranch that had some good Axis and suggested we try there. This other ranch was about 500 acres and low fenced. The ranch owner said that there were quite a few free ranging Axis that crossed his ranch, along with qute a few gold metal bucks. He told us where they crossed his property and when we could see them. So we waited around until he said it was time and then we drove out in HIS pickup because they were used to HIS pickup and parked. Sure enough, after about 30 minutes here they come walking along just like he said they would. There were 3 good bucks that just walked by HIS truck close enough that I didn't need a gun, I could have just cut their throat with my knife.

So after 3 days of HARD hunting on this "non-ethical" hunting preserve without getting a good shot, I go to this "ethical" low fenced ranch and after a long wait of 30 minutes (sitting in an airconditioned truck) have 3 gold metal bucks walk up to within 10 feet of the ranch owner's truck and look at me. So which of these hunts was "ethical" and which was not?

I would have been proud of any Axis that I could have taken on that high fenced (unethical) ranch, because that was a HUNT. I busted my A$$ without success, which was OK. There was NO WAY that I could have been proud of the Axis on that low fenced (ethical) ranch, even though they were certainly gold metal quality, because that would have been SHOOTING, not hunting.

Well, you might be right about dropping me into 1000 acres, but I wouldn't bet on it. I cover a lot of ground on foot when I hunt. You fellas forget that conditions are a lot different up here. I don't hunt on a ranch, I hunt in the bush, thousands upon thousands of acres of it. I haven't a hope in hell of driving up, on any game, 'cause there aint no roads in much of it. I may walk 10 to 20 miles of bush trails. Not every day, but usually several days during a week of hunting. And yes, finding a fence is going to tick me off big time.
You're right to complain that I have not tried it, but really, I don't feel the need. I like walking in the bush, the kill is a bonus.

Oh, and I like Broccoli

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2005, 03:37:49 PM »

I certainly don't presume to tell anyone what's right for them. But don't like others to tell us what's right for the rest. Some folks just want to call anything other than their personal way wrong. That is where I have a problem.

I too have spent most of my hunting career hunting in large wooded areas. I've darn sure never walked any 20 miles in one day hunting. I tend to take hunting as a serious slow moving approach. I'd call 20 miles of trail in a day a hard fast hike. But that's my approach. I've been known to move so fast I covered 100 yards in a bit under three hours. Reason I went no further was I killed a deer at that point. And prior to that had been stalked by three wild dogs who I think intended to eat me. I saw them in time and when I turned to shoot they ran. BUT not far enough. The next time I was out I stalked and got them.

Different folks like different methods of hunting. I see nothing wrong with any of them as long as they are legal. I only have a problem when someone judges that a method not preferred by them is wrong for all of us. We can each only decide what is right for ourselves.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2005, 04:34:17 PM »

Didn't mean to put down anyones way of hunting!
No way, I'm sure that there are lots of folk here who whould be happy to put down mine. The reason I walk so much, is to keep up with my hound. Yes, I also have used spot and stalk, still hunting, and even stand hunting on occassion, when the conditions are right, but for the most part, all the camps in my area use hounds. That means having one or more houndsmen. That would be me. I know for a fact I have walked more than thirty miles on at least one occasion. The boys said a herd of buffalo wouldn't have broken my snoring that night.

acearch72 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2005, 04:48:43 PM »

John Y,

I have seen many high fenced hunts that are not hunts but just shoots and I personally don't agree with that concept. However, just to group them all into that catagory in incorrect.

However I firmly believe that a trophy is what an individual considers it to be. While one person might not consider shooting a deer in a high fenced area, or even a pen, a trophy, another person might. Whatever floats your boat.

I would guess that many on here would say that hunting with hounds as you mentioned is unethical. I don't agree with that. I remember back when it was popular in Mississippi to hunt with dogs. I loved it. My son got his 1st buck in front of a pack of beagles that both his grandfather and I had missed. That was a proud day for lots of folks. I miss the sounds of a pack of beagles running through the hardwoods.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2005, 12:47:17 AM »

Funny you should mention beagles, they're what I've used for the last twenty years or so. I found that big dogs take up much of your hunting time, hunting for the dogs, and they push the deer too hard IMO.
The reason I started this thread, is that our government is sticking it's nose into the hunting community once again, and shortly, there will be no fenced hunts in Ontario. The problem, is the perception by the politicians, that they are shooting galleries with live game as targets, and the fact, that most of the canned hunts in this province are small operations. A few hundred acres.
It's not a big thing for me, because it's not the way I hunt, but I guess it should be, because they are driving their danged Liberal wedge further into my sport.

bigbore442001 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2005, 04:23:32 PM »

I have read all these posts about this issue and it is a tough one for the hunting community.

I have hunted wild boar at two preserves. One in Maine and another in Pennsylvania. I also hunted them free ranging in Florida and Texas.

The place in Pennsylvania didn't provide much sport. It seemed like the boar weren't too wary and my friend and I had our boar within the hour. I hunted in Florida where I had to crawl on my belly to get within handgun range. That was real hunting in my opinion. I hunted a place in Maine and it was sort of in between. I enjoyed it and plan to go again as it is a lot closer and cheaper in the long run.

One way of looking at the whole exotic game issue is that the preserves provide an opportunity for hunters to hunt game that may be almost extinct in their native land or the cost would be prohibitive for the average working hunter. A good example would be nilgai. They are an antelope that is indigineous to India. You can hunt free ranging herds in South Texas( the famous King Ranch has them and offers hunts for them ) as well as other preserves. I do believe that they are declining in India while they are thriving on private ranches here in the US. There are probably more here than in India. Same could be said of the Barbary Sheep or Aoudad. They are practically extinct in North Africa(their origin) while thriving in Texas.

So, preserves do the animal a lot of good. They ensure some animals will not become extinct.

I will say that John Y's method of hunting is very common in the northern US as well as Canada. Game is spread out and you could sit in a treestand for thirty days and see nothing but gray jays. You need to move around to see and get shots at game. The methods in Canada and Maine( where I have had limited experience in such methods) really don't work well elsewhere and vice versa.

I don't mind exotic preserves. I just don't care for the white tail preserves. Just a taste thing for me.