25-06 in Ruger, Tikka, Savage, Browning?????

[Dave from MN]

Gentlemen,

I have decided to purchase a new rifle in 25-06, but have not yet decided on the manufacturer.  My preference is for a stainless steel barrel and a synthetic stock.  A number of rifles meet these criteria including Ruger, Tikka, Savage and Browning.  

From everything I've read on this site, it would seem like an easy choice - buy the Tikka T3, right?  Unfortunately, you can't buy the Tikka in a 24" barrel which concerns me from an accuracy standpoint.  Everything I have read suggests that 25-06s like 24" or longer barrels.  Anyone out there with a Tikka T3 in 25-06 with a story - good or bad?  Has Tikka (Sako) fixed their stainless steel problems or are barrels still exploding?

I liked the Ruger M77, but everyone I have spoken with, including the dealers, recommend the addition of a Timney trigger.  I can buy this rifle new for $450.00 (about the same price as the Tikka).  If it were a toss up between the Ruger and the Tikka, which would you buy.  

I haven't really explored the Savage or the Browning, but would appreciate any comments you might have.  Personally, I am a Remington man, but I can't get the 25-06 in SS/Syn.  Too bad!

Thanks in advance for your help with this.  Happy Holidays!

Dave from MN

[swecology]

Dave,

I would stay away from the Tikka, for a variety of reasons.  If it doesn't have a 24" barrel, you will not be getting the most out of the cartridge.

I have a Ruger M70 MkII in the caliber, and I love it.  Barrel is still a little rough after 6 years, but accuracy has never really suffered.  Browning would be my first choice though, for the reputation and the detachable box mag., and the trigger on the Ruger.  I didn't opt for a Timney, but rather had the trigger worked on by a local gunsmith.  It was worth the money.  Reduced a 9lb pull to a 4lb or less pull.  I can live with that.  

Go for the Browning.  The Ruger is a quality firearm, but there have been fouling issues with the rough barrel and the gawdawful trigger that I have contended with.

One other thing about Tikka - is it in any fashion related to Sako/Beretta?  If so, be careful.  There are recalls out right now for the Sako rifles.  See the other links on this BB.

Whichever one  you choose, get a bottle of Shooter's Choice, and Barnes CR-10.  You will need them for the copper fouling.  Not a matter of if, but when.

Matt

[Val]

I have a Savage 110 FP in 25-06 with a 24" heavy barrel and the Accu Trigger. I like it very much. I was originally looking at the Savage 110 but it came with a 22" barrel. The heavy 24" barrel in the 110FP only weighed 1 pound more so I went for it. I'm getting 3 shot groups at .75" with 120 grain Nosler Partitions. I also load 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips for target practice and varmint. These give me less than .75" 3 shot groups. I haven't even played with the bullet seating depth to try and improve the accuracy.

[Bart Solo]

How do you intend to use the rifle?  How much do you want to spend?

[Dave from MN]

In answer to Ron's question, I will principly be using the firearm for deer and antelope, but will on occasion pursue coyotes, fox, etc.  

As for what I am willing to spend, I would like to stay in the $500 range if that is a possibility.

Dave from MN

[Coyote Hunter]

Dave -

Get the Ruger if you like it.  Ruger triggers are often not the best out of the box, but a competent gunsmith can rework them easily (I've done one of mine) and inexpensively, or a replacement can be done.

That said, some Ruger triggers are quite nice.  I will be opening a "surprise" from Santa on Christmas day -- a .300 Win Mag with a "canoe paddle" synthetic stock.  Already checked the trigger (quite a few times) and it is very good.

In my opinion, I would rather choose the rifle for features that are difficult to change, and change the easy things, than choose a rifle for the trigger and live with features I don't care for.

[yankees1]

I have a Tikka in 25-06 and it will shoot three shots all touching at 200 yards. Best rifle I own!              

Dave,

I would stay away from the Tikka, for a variety of reasons.  If it doesn't have a 24" barrel, you will not be getting the most out of the cartridge.

I have a Ruger M70 MkII in the caliber, and I love it.  Barrel is still a little rough after 6 years, but accuracy has never really suffered.  Browning would be my first choice though, for the reputation and the detachable box mag., and the trigger on the Ruger.  I didn't opt for a Timney, but rather had the trigger worked on by a local gunsmith.  It was worth the money.  Reduced a 9lb pull to a 4lb or less pull.  I can live with that.  

Go for the Browning.  The Ruger is a quality firearm, but there have been fouling issues with the rough barrel and the gawdawful trigger that I have contended with.

One other thing about Tikka - is it in any fashion related to Sako/Beretta?  If so, be careful.  There are recalls out right now for the Sako rifles.  See the other links on this BB.

Whichever one  you choose, get a bottle of Shooter's Choice, and Barnes CR-10.  You will need them for the copper fouling.  Not a matter of if, but when.

Matt

[tcforec]

"would stay away from the Tikka, for a variety of reasons. If it doesn't have a 24" barrel, you will not be getting the most out of the cartridge."

What are the variety of reasons? other than a recall on bad guns, an out-of-the-box Tikka T3 smokes any Ruger I've seen. Price & Accuracy. I've had a .308 and a 270wsm and they both will cover a dime@100 straight from the factory and the recoil is extremely low for a 6.5 lb rifle.

[SD Handgunner]

I would opt for the Ruger. Yes I too have heard all of the horror stories about them being inaccurate, but to be honest I have never had one that wouldn't shoot to my satisfaction. Granted they took a little tweaking, but for me that is half the fun of a new Rifle.

As for the Triggers they are quite easy to improve (either by a local gunsmith or by the shooter skilled in such things). There is a set of instructions on the net for improving the Ruger Trigger, and if followed to the letter it is amazingly easy to get a really good SAFE Trigger Pull of down to 2 pounds (if it is desired that light).

Generally when I get a new Ruger 77 there are 4 basic things I do. First is to thoroughly clean the bore, followed by polishing with FLITZ Bore Polish (followed again by a thorough cleaning prior to shooting).

After this is done then I break in the barrel properly using the Shoot-n-Clean method. Start with a clean bore (after polishing with FLITZ Bore Polish) shoot one shot and run 3 patches soaked in shooters choice followed by 3 dry patches through the bore. I do this between ever shot fired for the first 10 rounds. Then I graduate to 5 shot strings between patching the bore. At the 50 rounds mark you should be able to tell the patches are not getting as dirty as they did when you started.

Next on the Stainless-Synthetic version I free float the barrel channel. These stocks are not the most rigid, and if pressure is not going to be consistant I want it free floated. I generally float them so I can slip 4 one dollar bills between the barrel and the forend.

Lastly is the trigger we have already discussed. I did install a Timney Fully Adjustable Trigger on one of my Rugers, but since I found the detailed instructions on how to tune the Ruger Triggers I have not spent the money for a Timney since.

The current Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .243 Winchester that I have is plenty accurate for my needs. All I have shot through it so far is Federal Factory Ammo (haven't had time to work up any handloads just yet. Federal Power Shok 100gr. Pointed Soft Point Ammo is printing 5 shot groups at 100 yards of slightly under 3/4". Federal Premium Vital Shok Ammo loaded with the 100gr. Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail is printing 5 shot 100 yards groups of 1" or slightly less.

Just recently I have been shooting some Federal Premium V-Shok Ammo loaded with 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips. So far after getting it zeroed to my satisfaction I have shot 2 - 5 shot groups at 100 yards. One group was slightly over 3/8", and the other slightly over 1/2".

I have also worked with several different Ruger M77MKII's in .223 Remington and all have shot quite good with their choosen ammo. In fact I will be picking up a new Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .223 Remington in a week or so.

Yep I have been a huge fan of Ruger M77's ever since I bought the very first one I ever had back in 1978. There have been many through here since (both the original Tang Safety M77's, and the newer MKII's) and all have served me well.

Good luck with whatever you decide to purchase.

Larry

[swecology]

Yankees1 and Tcforec:

Sorry, didn't mean to enflame a "Ford vs. Chevy" argument here.

All that I meant was that if the weapon doesn't have a 24" barrel, that weapon will not develop the pressures or velocities that a good .25-06 are capable of.

As for the other "variety of reasons", yeah, I would stay away from a brand of imported rifle NO MATTER WHERE IT"S FROM if there is a history of said brand or it's relatives are beginning to develop a pattern of blowing up with hand loaded AND factory loaded ammunition.  At least until I could get assurance that the specific firearm (check the serial number) I was to buy was not affected.  Period.  End of sentence.  To me, that seems like common sense, as I don't have extra limbs, eyes or a face to donate to the trial lawyers.

The other reason is that I have a certain fondness of American Made centerfire rifles.  Irrational, maybe, but that's what I like.  I don't expect anyone else to understand or feel the same.  Those sentiments do extend towards pick up trucks, too. :wink:  

My .25-06 is a Ruger, and my main gripe is that it is a real pain in the @&& to clean because of the fouling.  About 2/3 of the way down the bore, you can feel a real rough spot.  Repeated treatments with JB Bore Paste  is slowly taking it out, and maintaining the consistent 1/2 to 3/4" groups the rifle is capable of .   I love that gun and all of it's defects, and will never part with it.  But when compared against a Winchester in
.25 WSSM that has the same capabilities of the .25-06,  I think the Ruger falls short.  


BTW, I drive a Ford 4X4, not an import, or worse yet, a Chevy.  

[Grubbs]

If you like the ruger or something else, buy it.  BUT, it will not outshoot the Tikka.....ever regardless of barrel length.  Tikka will be superior action, accuracy and better in every way than any of the ones you mention.  I have 2 t-3's (7-08 and 7mag) and a Tikka whitetail.  7-08 T-3 is sub MOA with factory ammo and chrnographs right at velocity levels stated on box (Hornady Light mag).   If you think your rugers, etc will outshoot the tikka you're dreaming, but if you want somehting else go for it.

[Squeeze]

My vote is for a Tikka, too.  I have a Tikka Whitetail Hunter in Stainless/Laminate .25-06,
that makes one ragged hole, at 100 yards, with it's favorite ammo.  Even
Nosler Partitions, not known as an extremely accurate bullet, groups into
1.25", at 100 yards.  TSX bullets group well under 1 MOA.  Yes I also was a bit
concerned with the 22 7/8" barrel, but my chroney says I am still getting good
velocities.  

I have shot a few Rugers, and Brownings, and own a couple of Savage bolt action
firearms, and given your list, I'd be looking at Tikka, if I had a $500 budget, or
Savage, if I had a $400 budget, or if I wanted to spend more on optics, and
cash was an issue.  The Tikka wins on fit, finish, and trigger.  They are too close
to call on accuracy, but the hand lapped bore might give a slight edge to Tikka.
And this BS about worrying about Tikka/Sako blowing up is just that.  Brand
loyal types, that don't care for Tikka/Sako are piling on.  Any gun with a problem
barrel, is already off the shelves, and anyone with a Tikka/Sako can quickly get
an answer if their gun is a problem.  Companies deal with these issues differently.
Tikka/Sako/Beretta seemed have addressed this problem quickly.  Remington
has hidden behind lawyers, and denial, for years about their safety pushed off,
gun goes off, problem.  I had a Mossberg bolt action 12 ga. rifled slug gun,
that had a safety issue, that they contacted me, and took care of shipping,
and upgrade.  Now that is how a company should react to this problem.
I don't know if Beretta made a concerted effort to track down the problem guns.
It they did not, then they deserve those lawsuits.  It they did, then they have some
evidence to use in mitigating the damages.  But the bottom line for gun buyers,
is the new Tikkas, and Sakos, are gong to be WELL tested.  For what it is worth,
my next purchase will be a Tikka in SS/Syn, chambered in .223 Rem.

Squeeze

[swecology]

This was posted in the rec. hunting newsgroup.  

I only had my new Sako Finnlight for 2 weeks before it was recalled for
safety testing. That was two months ago and I still haven't got it back.

The recall letter referred to an undiscovered error in the raw material for
a small number of Tikka stainless steel rifles, and that "The condition of
these rifles is such that the barrels could rupture when the rifle is fired.
FOR THIS REASON, FIRING THE RIFLE COULD CAUSE INJURY - AND POSSIBLY SERIOUS
INJURY - TO THE SHOOTER."

I'm kicking myself for not getting a Weatherby.

Trent Corbett


"Sam A. Kersh" <csmkersh@flash.net> wrote in message
news:f4rgs0tdv5j6plhjqp6eh4hd1u96cpqehm@4ax.com...
> Some very major kB!s and they're not Glocks.
>
> http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html
>
>
> Sam A. Kersh
> NRA Patron Member
> L.E.A.A. Life Member
> TSRA Life Member
> GOA, JPFO, SAF
> http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/
> ====================================================
> Body count math:  two guerillas plus one portable plus
> two pigs equal 37 enemy KIA
>
>        Murphy's Rules

If you begin to follow the links, you will be able to more fully research the issue with Tikka and Sako rifles.

Matt

[Grubbs]

Well said squeeze.  Some people like swecology have their mind made up and we are not going to change it and that's not even my intention.  But don't tell me how much better a Weatherby, Ruger, Remington, Winchester, or Browning is than a Tikka........that's nonsense.  You will continue to see Sako/Tikka gain market share over time and for good reason.  Tikka is the best bang for the buck out there....period.

[swecology]

Well said squeeze.  Some people like swecology have their mind made up and we are not going to change it and that's not even my intention.  But don't tell me how much better a Weatherby, Ruger, Remington, Winchester, or Browning is than a Tikka........that's nonsense.  You will continue to see Sako/Tikka gain market share over time and for good reason.  Tikka is the best bang for the buck out there....period.

Grubbs,

Who has their mind made up?  Take a look at your last sentence...

The more I shoot, the more I learn about shooting and ballistics.  Increased knowledge will alter my opinion. The opinion of others (or market share) won't alter that opinion.  That's being an informed consumer.   If Tikka and Sako ever get their act together, maybe my opinion will change with time.  For now though, I can't in good concious recommend anyone buy a firearm that may end up in shreds.  Can you, really?

I would not trust, at this point, a Tikka unless I had the knowledge that the individual firearm by serial # wasn't faulty.  The responsibility for that is on Tikka, not the buyer.

Personal preference is just that, "personal preference".  I have mine, you have yours.  Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

[Lawdog]

Dave from MN,

Has Tikka (Sako) fixed their stainless steel problems or are barrels still exploding?

No news has been released at this time from Sako/Tikka.  Until they do get their problem fixed I wouldn't touch a Sako/Tikka.

Everything I have read suggests that 25-06s like 24" or longer barrels.

Correct the .25-06 does best with a 24" or longer barrel and that is one of the reasons why to pick the Ruger M77.  Comes with a 24" barrel.  Installing a Timney trigger is no big thing and doesn't cost that much.  When you are done you have an accurate rifle with a great adjustable trigger.

Savage is another good choice but they don't offer a 24" barrel in .25-06.

As stated I would opt for the Ruger(my son did and it's as near as accurate as my favorite .25-06(got three of them)) and don't second guess yourself.  On top of everything else the Ruger scope mounting system is one of the very best going.  It will serve you well for many years.  Lawdog
 

[Dave from MN]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your candid feedback.  You have definitely given me a lot to think about.  I'll be making a decision in the next week or so (after Christmas), and I'll let you know what I chose and how it shoots.  Happy Holidays!

Dave from MN

[Coyote Hunter]

Well said squeeze.  Some people like swecology have their mind made up and we are not going to change it and that's not even my intention.  But don't tell me how much better a Weatherby, Ruger, Remington, Winchester, or Browning is than a Tikka........that's nonsense.  You will continue to see Sako/Tikka gain market share over time and for good reason.  Tikka is the best bang for the buck out there....period.

With all due respect, Grubbs, this sounds like a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black...

[DirtyHarry]

I just bought a new Savage model 112BVSS and it has a 26" barrel.
I cant comment on it other than fit and finish as I have not fired a shot through it yet though.
I have no doubt that the Tikka is a fine rifle, but until they get their recent problems sorted out I would not even consider them.
I have issues with Ruger and would put them at the bottom of my list.
I was generally Remington fan, but I don't think their quality is on par with the price they want anymore.
Weatherby's are nice but I don't care for the synthetic stock on the vanguard and the top of the line weatherby's are far too expensive IMO. Due in part to the reviews and recommendations of Lawdog I decided to give Savage a try.......

[tcforec]

"would not trust, at this point, a Tikka unless I had the knowledge that the individual firearm by serial # wasn't faulty. The responsibility for that is on Tikka, not the buyer."

Beretta, USA called me and sent a letter out to me with instructions on what to do with the recalled gun. However, being in the middle of our peak deer season here in NC, I called the customer service number and they gave me the direct number to the person in charge of the recall. I not only had a new gun within three weeks but they upgraded me to a 270 wsm (.308 was sold out). From what I have gathered from them there are about 80 rifles involved. I like Rugers too, and Brownings, Winchester, Remington, CZ all quality firearms. I just think the Tikka is the best all-around package for the $ involved . And boy, do they shoot. No need to do an elaborate break-in either(unless you're worried about fouling and cleaning), they are on right out of the box. Love the weight and the recoil is minimal...........and old Chevy's rock(at least my cherry '89 Blazer).  :lol:

[270Handiman]

The Tikka is a great rifle.  Just call customer service to be sure your gun is not part of the recall.  If its not, you have a great gun that's ready to go hunting or shooting or whatever.  It has a wonderfully good trigger, a stiffer stock that is fiberglass reinforced, and outstanding accuracy.  And all this comes with it.  In my opinion, Tikka has gotten their act together, and now all the others are just playing catch-up.

As far as the shorter barrel goes, you probably never know the difference unless you shoot thru a chrony all the time.  At most you'll lose about 50 fps, which is about like saying you don't want a gun that shoots 1" moa, but one that shoots 7/8" moa.  It's just not significant.

But, don't buy the browning either, because it only has a 23" barrel.  I guess Browning should get their act together also? And Savage, they don't have a 24" barrel.  It could be that these companies know that 1" of barrel is just insignificant velocity wise to most mere mortal shooters and it gives them an opportunity to shave weight.

The ruger is a great gun, and with some work, it can be made to shoot as well as most out of the box tikka's.  Just rip the trigger out of your brand new rifle and replace it with a good one like a timmey, free float the barrel or better yet replace the stock with a more rigid one, and spend some time lapping the barrel.  Before long, you'll have a pretty solid gun.

If your opposed to foreign made guns, buy a Browning and be done with it. Otherwise, just buy the gun you feel FITS YOU the best.

270

[tscott]

20 years ago I bought a Weatherby Vanguard. $249... Great wood, etc.
The same barreled action is the Howa 1500 lightning @ www.legacysports.com! I would highly recommend looking. You could add the stock of your choice. Bell and Carlson, would be only too happy to custom fit one of their stocks to an action.. = custom rifle for under $500!

[Grubbs]

Here's rifle brands I currently own:
Remington (3), Marlin (2), Steyr-Mannlicher, Savage, Tikka (3), Ruger,
Winchester, and an old Sringfield.  Regardless of the very small allotment of Tikka/Sako barrel problems, Tikka is still the cream of the crop in an all around package (excluding the Steyr which is awesome but expensive).  No Remington, Savage, Winchester, or Browning I have ever seen or had will hold a candle to the fit, finish, smoothness, accuracy, or trigger adjustment that my Tikkas have.  

As far as the problem Sako/Tikka has had....I have 2 T-3's.  One purchased in Feb of'04 (7-08), and the other in Aug '04 (7mag) and neither were affected by the recall.  After shooting app 50-75 rounds through each they are still intact....imagine that.  They still shoot circles around anything I have had, or my buddies have had (except the Steyr).  I may buy somehting different in the future because I like all kinds of guns, especially rifles.  But the best bang for the buck out there is the Tikka hands down.  Like it or not.

[Todd1700]

I agree. I own a Tikka T-3 in 25-06 caliber and have never been more pleased with a rifle straight out of the box. Very accurate even with factory ammo. Best trigger on any rifle costing less than 1000 dollars that I have ever encountered and you can adjust it down to 2 lbs in minutes with one screwdriver. Action is slick as glass. Detachable magazine.

None of my friends had ever heard of Tikkas until I bought mine. Now however every single one of them that has handled and or shot my Tikka either went and bought one or are currently in the process of trying to find one in the caliber they desire most.

Here is my experience and opinion on some other brands.

1.) Ruger M77.....Beautiful guns that are very dependable and built like a tank. Love the mauser style action. However they possess the worst factory trigger of any of the big name companies out there. I have also never had good luck with any ruger being super accurate straight out of the box. Maybe that's my bad luck but it is never the less a fact. Take a ruger put a custom trigger on it and do a little more custom work and you can make yourself quite a gun. As for me? I don't care to spend 500 dollars on a brand new rifle just to get it to shoot like a Tikka or even a cheap Savage will straight out of the box. Unfortunate because I love how these guns look.

2.) Remington 700......Their older guns were wonderful but now it's a crap shoot. Quality control is shot to hell at Remington if you ask me. Buy one and you get a good gun, but the next one....who knows? Trigger is better than a ruger but still not great. At least you don't have to put your foot against a tree to get enough leverage to pull it like you do with a ruger. This is probably the most common bolt action rifle in America so after market parts and modifications will be easiest for it. Decent gun and if you get lucky some are still real shooters.

3.) Browning A-bolt....Probably my second favorite. I have never owned a Browning that wasn't at least a pretty good shooter. Decent trigger and well made guns. Some don't like the bolt action on brownings but I like it just fine. Love the detachable magazine.

[Bighorn75]

But, don't buy the browning either, because it only has a 23" barrel.  I guess Browning should get their act together also?

If your opposed to foreign made guns, buy a Browning and be done with it. Otherwise, just buy the gun you feel FITS YOU the best.

270

In 25-06, Browning a-bolts come with 24" barrels.  If you're opposed to foreign made guns however, the Browning is made in Japan.

[Graybeard]

In 25-06, Browning a-bolts come with 24" barrels. If you're opposed to foreign made guns however, the Browning is made in Japan.

AND owned by our good friends the French government.  :eek:  :roll:

[swecology]

Hi.

Greybeard, thank you for bringing this up; I wouldn't have checked if you hadn't said anything.

I did a search for GIAT Browning and GIAT Winchester.  What I found is that it appears Fabrique Natl. was sold back to the Belgian Govt.  in the late 1990's or early part of the new century.  There is a large difference between French ownership and Belgian ownership.   J.M. Browning had a long and profitable relationship with F.N. for quite some time.  

So, I guess that my preference is for a Belgian gun, instead of an American gun?  O.K., I can live with that. There are two Browning BPS shotguns and two Win. M70 rifles in my rack and cases.   My Lyman GPR was made in Italy and finished in my workshop.  It's the aesthetic and the mechanical appointments of the gun that I prefer, which when you get down to it, are hard (if not impossible) to quantify.  I just like a "traditional" firearm, where European styling turns me off.   Barrels shredding do also give me cause for concern.

As for the physics of it... you will not develop the velocity or bullet stabilization out of a 22" barrel that you would in a 24" barrel for a .25-06;  and along the same principle, you will not develop the velocity for a .50 cal roundball in a barrel with a 1:60" twist that is shorter than 32" long.  It just ain't gonna happen.  It's called Physics, and it's close relative Ballistics.. . a very mysterious subject!

Again though, thank you to Greybeard for putting the question in my head.  

Matt

[BackCountry]

Hey Grubbs,
Can you give me a little more info on what you like about the steyr, and what model do you own. If you could give me the pros and cons of the gun, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

[9x23w]

I also wanted a SS 25-06 with a 24" barrel and wound up with a Steyr SBS Stainless.  The Sakos and Tikkas all have 22" barrels so I ruled them out.  The A-bolt has a screwed up magazine so I ruled it out also.  The SBS has a few quirks (some good, some not so good) but it is well made and accurate.  Let me know if you want more information.

[BackCountry]

9x23w

What are the few quirks you say the steyr have, I would like as much info as you care to share on the gun.

Thank you.