Author Topic: Bullet spins in crimp (Read 1351 times)

handirifle · « **on:** December 20, 2004, 08:10:42 PM »

First off, let me explain that I am using 38-55 brass in 375 Win, with .375 jacketed bullets.

Now, the problem. When seating bullets, I'm having a bit of problem getting the bullets to crimp tight enough to keep them from spinning and possible from pushing back in the case at recoil.

Have tried the 375 Win Lee factory crimp die, and to get it to crimp enough, it compresses the case and wrinkles it. With a roll crimp from the seating die, it usually holds but not always....suggestions?

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** December 20, 2004, 10:38:06 PM »

Are we to assume this is happening with all or pretty much all of the cases?

If so, you have one of two problems I think. First is that the .38-55 brass is likely thinner than the .375 Win. brass. Or it might be your dies are not sizing it down far enough. Might even be a bit of both.

The easy solution is to use .375 Win. brass. Or you might contact the die manufacturer and see if they can provide one to size it down a bit more for a tighter hold on the bullet. You must have adequate neck tension in addition to the crimp to properly hold bullets in place.

Once a long time ago I bought 100 IMI .44 Magnum cases. Worked fine the first time I loaded them. But on the next reload the exact same thing you are experiencing happened to most of them. Even those that got thru that load did it the next time. I trashed them all and swore off IMI brass just as I have PMC for life.

In my case I knew the problem was not my dies as they worked fine with all other brands of brass but the IMI.

I had the same with a .45 Colt die set and in this case it was the belling die that was opening it back up too far after sizing when belling the case mouth. A call to RCBS fixed that one. Are you using a belling die? If so look at that possibility. If you are and IF you can get the part of die out that bells the case you can chuck it up in a lathe or drill press and use some fine sandpaper to reduce it so it opens the case up a bit less.

Those are some of my experiences with somewhat similar situations with straight as opposed to botttleneck cases.

jgalar · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2004, 02:42:41 AM »

Your expander may be over sized and not giving you enough grip on the seated bullet. Measure either the expander or the inside of a case that has been expanded to see if you need a smaller diameter expander to get the proper friction fit. You can contact the die maker and get a smaller diameter expander or remove it and chuck it up in a drill and remove some of the diameter with crocus cloth or fine sandpaper.

handirifle · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2004, 05:53:23 AM »

GB
Thanks, lots of thinbgs to check on there. As far as the 375 brass, it is not an option (well, it is, but I don't want to use it) since the reason I'm using the 38-55 brass is greater case capacity.

jgalar
I'll look into the expander idea. never thouight of that one.

Lawdog · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2004, 08:45:05 AM »

handirifle,

Quote

since the reason I'm using the 38-55 brass is greater case capacity.

Yes, but like Graybeard said the .38-55 brass is thinner, thus weaker. I don't believe the .38-55 was ever designed to take the pressures that the .375 Win. creates. I believe like Graybeard, it's the brass. Lawdog

handirifle · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2004, 10:02:15 AM »

lawdog
Many have said that about the 38-55 brass but many say the opposite too. So far mine shows no signs of weakness. No over expansion, splitting or anything else so far. If it gets to that I'll back off the loads so.

So far am over 2100fps with 250gr and climbing. This problem I listed does not occur with my 250gr bullet only the 200gr ones.

The 250's were the reason I started this experiment in the first place so I'll keep going with them for now. I was hoping to gain similar increases in performance with the 200gr loads but if I cannot make the bullet tight I'll use 375 brass for the 200gr loads.

The bullets are actually 270gr Hornady Interlokt spire point bullets cut to about .9" and down to 250gr. This gives the bullet a nice flat point, is so far proving very accurate but haven't tested penetration yet. I suspect it will out perform the 255gr Barnes original and are a lot cheaper. $15 per 50 as opposed to $23 per 50.

They have a great cannelure and the bullet ogive allows for sligltly longer seating while still allowing them to cycle properly in the Winchester.

The jacket is thicker than the bullets meant for the 375 Win but since the nose its cut off it opens like a partition.

You need to read Paco Kelly's article on 375/356 Improved to see where I'm going with this.

One tenth of a grain at a time mind you. :grin:

handirifle · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2004, 03:48:04 PM »

Hi all,
Just for the record, I loaded some 200gr bullets using 375 brass and they work perfectly, both the seating die and the crimper. The problem was when using the 200gr bullets in 38-55 brass (still loaded for the 375 though) The problem is not nearly as pronounced when I use the 250gr bullets. And NO for some reason known to someone other than myself I have mit miked either bullet, at least for width.

Still would like to figure out how to make it work with the 200gr and 38-55 brass. Just cause!

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2004, 12:16:26 AM »

Try backing off on your crimp. You may be buckling the brass slightly.

handirifle · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2004, 04:11:35 AM »

John
Yea, that was one of the things I ran into, but I feel, like some have mentioned, it's the case thickness as much as anything. Like I posted just above, they do work fine on 375 brass.

When the crimp die is closed down all the way it just pushed down on the case as opposed to crimping tighter. I have 3-4 buckled and ruined pieces of brass to prove it.

I'm not sure there is going to be a cure for this as yet. What does seem to help is to run the case back into the resizer die with the bullet seated and crimped, and the decapper removed. This helps but the fat ogive of the 200gr bullet gets in the way.

I might just have to try a different 200gr bullet, just like I'm doing with the 250. I'm using the Hornady 270gr cut to flat nose for my 250 and am looking at the Hornady 225gr for my 200gr possibility. The ogive is smaller on these and thus SLIGHTLY better BC but mostly it has thicker jacket and more controlled expansion.

The 200gr bullets intended for the 375 Win have small slices in the nose of the jacket to facilitate quick expansion. Great for low velocity shots on deer, but if the bullet is pushed to 2500 or 2600fps I think it will blow up too quickly.

There are very similar results posted on the 300gr JHP in the 45-70. Plus I'd like to have to 200gr hold up on black bear if necessary.

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2004, 09:37:32 AM »

handirifle,

What I meant is that brass for the .38-55 is designed to be loaded to pressures up to 24,000 psi where as the .375 Win. is designed to be loaded to pressures of 48,000 psi. I just don't think that using .38-55 brass just to gain a few extra grains of room is a safe practice. Lawdog

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2004, 11:14:07 AM »

I don't either. Especially in light of the fact that 100 fps or so more or less is of absolutely no consequence in the real world. Flirting with disaster to gain it is just plain stupid to be quite blunt.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2004, 11:16:18 AM »

Have you considered just using a 38-55 die?
As to the pressure issues, I am somewhat in Lawdogs camp as to wether it's really worth all the effort, but from my own nutty and dangerous experiments with other calibers, I realize that as long as you are working with a modern firearm, and really watch yourself, there is room for a bit of lee way. The thing that bothers me most, is that at working with lower pressure rounds, the pressure signs are so subtle that you really have to look close. Be careful!

handirifle · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2004, 01:40:01 PM »

Thanks for all the concerns, blunt or otherwise, but I have never been as careful on anything as I am on this. Believe me when I see signs of pressure I will back off.

As for 100fps it will be more like 300 when done SAFELY.

Reloading can be viewed by ANYONE as stupid at any point if one chooses. When one reloads, you go by published data because that is where someone tells you to go. If your rifle shows signs of excess pressure before you hit published maximums you're done what every reloader SHOULD be doing in the first place, watching for signs of pressure.

If you take the powder charge straight from a 450 Marlin factory round and put it directly into a 45-70 brass the pressure will be lower automatically because the 45-70 brass is thinner and therefore more volumous. Sound familiar? The pricipal is the same here. You never hear anyone saying not to use the 45-70 brass at 450 pressures cause we all know 45-70's were meant for trapdoor rifles.

The limiting factors at play here are the brass, the chamber and the usual signs of over pressure. That is all I am doing, this is not russian roulette.

I don't claim to be him but if Elmer Kieth had never experimented this exact same way, you would never had the 44 mag. Even the gun manufacturers were, at first, reluctant to load them as he described.

It was understandable why they wanted an entirely new casing, but the point is he did it on his own. I have no desire to "magnumize" the 375 but if I can gain 250-300fps over the published loads, I will. I won't be the first or the last STUPID person to do so either.

By the way, my Hornady manual #26 says the max velocity with a 200gr loads is under 2100fps. Yet the HORNADY 2004 annual manual, says 2400fps?

? More pressure? probably, but it was no boubt dont by slowly experimenting.

One manual publishes loads almost 6 grains higher with the same powder and bullet, both manuals from the same company.

As I said, I'll continue untill I see signs of excess pressure then back off.

I'm not pushing the limits of this cartridge, just finding them.

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2004, 06:02:01 PM »

Quote

Believe me when I see signs of pressure I will back off.

Did the bullet exit barrel? THAT is a real good sign of pressure. You've seen it back off.

Oh how many times am I gonna hafta type this in before folks open their eyes and learn.

THERE ARE NO PRESSURE SIGNS TO READ THAT TELL YOU WHEN IS TOO MUCH.

All the old crap about flat primers, case head expansion, sticking extraction and a dozen other are all BS. NONE OF THEM WORK. These days folks have the means of testing pressures in their own barrels. The results have shown that any or all of these signs might show at well below SAAMI limits or none might show at double SAAMI limits. YOU CANNOT depend on "pressure signs" to save your butt.

Quote

As for 100fps it will be more like 300 when done SAFELY.

You are kidding no one but yourself if you think you can switch from the .375 Win case to the .38-55 case and thru some magic black art gain 300 fps at safe pressures.

It's your eyes, your hands, your body and your life. Do with it as you please. But DO NOT List any such loads on this site to maim or kill others.

Steelhead · « **Reply #14 on:** December 23, 2004, 12:25:35 AM »

Quote

Thanks for all the concerns, blunt or otherwise, but I have never been as careful on anything as I am on this. Believe me when I see signs of pressure I will back off.

As for 100fps it will be more like 300 when done SAFELY.

Reloading can be viewed by ANYONE as stupid at any point if one chooses. When one reloads, you go by published data because that is where someone tells you to go. If your rifle shows signs of excess pressure before you hit published maximums you're done what every reloader SHOULD be doing in the first place, watching for signs of pressure.

All I can say is WOW....................Good luck with your endevours, and thanks for cleaning out the gene pool.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #15 on:** December 23, 2004, 12:27:54 AM »

I did a lot of experimenting with high pressure loads for the 38-40. i saw no pressure signs. and was very careful examining my cases. I was getting better case life than the 'experts' said I should too, so on I went.
Then suddenly, I had a case head sep. There was no prior warning. Strange? So I switched to another block of cartridges with a different powder I had to work up, and continued. A deer wandered out on the range, and continued to feed, whilst I shot around her. Maybe twenty shots later, I was having trouble chambering a round on the '92. what in the world? I checked for an obstruction, and nearly fell over. The barrel had a nice ring in the middle of the chamber. :eek: What would have happened If I fired that next shot? The previous round showed no problem, and I had no difficulty in extracting it.
This all came about, after repeated emails to a number of SAAMI members to try and get them to print 'rifle' loads for the cartridge. They don't listen well and some of them gave me the distinct impression they figured I was nuts (HMMM were they right?).
The rifle lives on, rebarreled to 44-40, and no hot rodding this time.
Good luck, and be careful

handirifle · « **Reply #16 on:** December 23, 2004, 04:07:07 AM »

Look, no need to get nasty here GB. For one, if I have to be gramerically correct I'll go to an english web site. I think MOST everyone understands the term "pressure" is referring to overpressure without someone trying to belittle them.

In case you haven't noticed I have never once, nor was I planning on, posting any load data just because I don't want to influence anyone else into trying what I am trying.

As for hot loading, how can everyone accuse me of overloading any cartridge if you have NO CLUE what my loads are?

The signs I look for are from industry experts and I won't go into them because you have already made your minds up on this topic anyway, so why try to explain it to you. No need to get rude and insulting. These are the very things you say you try to screen out of postings.

Like I said, NOT ONCE have I mentioned what powder or amounts I am using, only the bullet and it's design. I have stated my goals and based on that I'm flamed and ridiculed. Lighten up. If I was posting data here I could understand the concern.

Has anyone on this site ever shot CCI mini mags? Guess what, they use a longer and thinner case than standard 22 LR fodder. That is the "magical black art" they are using, by the way the ammo companies are at it again with the 17 Mach 2. Hasn't any else but me noticed that the bolt on your 22 semi auto kicks back with a LOT more authority with CCI mini mags? That folks is an indication there is a lot more pressure from this round than a standard 22 LR. This is not a new concept in rimfire or centerfire. More case volume means lower pressure with the same amount of powder. Has anyone fired a +P round in their 38 sp or 9mm or any other +P caliber?

For crying out loud, I won't even try Buffalo Bore ammo in my guns because they are pushing VERY hot loads that have not been tested in MY gun.

My 223 H&R won't even take the Hornady published max loads. And guess what, the primer DID flatten out, that was one of the signs that caused me to back off those loads.

Might I suggest sending a letter off to Hodgdons powder company, flaming them and saying thanks for cleaning out the gene pool, cause they have two manuals out within two years of each other and lo and behold, there is almost 400fps difference in their OWN published loads.

Hummm, wonder what black art they are studying. Maybe they learned the 375 loads in most manuals are shall we say a bit on the lite side?

Lawdog · « **Reply #17 on:** December 23, 2004, 10:40:04 AM »

handirifle,

I am not trying to argue here but excessive pressure signs(all the ones everyone that reloads knows or should know) due to thinner cases doesnt show 95% or better of the time. Just all of a sudden a case blows and there was NO warning. I have seen it happen and the results were not nice. My warning was given as I would to any friend(and as Graybeard gave his but it is HIS forum and as such is legally responsible for anything posted here). Heed or ignore, its up to you. Take care, good luck and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and your family. Lawdog

Greybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** December 23, 2004, 01:18:24 PM »

Quote

Look, no need to get nasty here GB. For one, if I have to be gramerically correct I'll go to an english web site. I think MOST everyone understands the term "pressure" is referring to overpressure without someone trying to belittle them.

Wasn't intended as "nasty". Stern maybe but not nasty. And no I'm not convinced everyone understands. Too much lately it really seems to me folks kinda think of it is no pressure until all of a sudden boom there is too much. Just not the way of the world.

The "if bullet came out of barrel that's a pressure sign" in response to a quote like yours came from JD Jones of SSK. It's his. I just liked it so much I tend to use it at times.

Those industry experts you refer to clearly are NOT so expert or they'd not still be hyping things already shown to not be valid. I really do not have the time right now to go into a full in depth discussion of why they are not. But folks who have pressue testing equipment have many times over now proven every single one of them to be totally and utterly unreliable.

Using any of them you may feel a need to stop 10,000-15,000 below SAAMI feel comfortable going 40,0000 over SAAMI. None of the indicators are sensitive enough to tell you the difference.

I've had the experience of holding one in my hands when it became a grenade. NOT FUN! I survived it and since have been trying to prevent others from sharing such an experience.

Steelhead · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2004, 02:06:56 PM »

Hummmm California......................

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** December 23, 2004, 03:54:52 PM »

GB
Thanks for your concern, but "looking" at the case is not my means of examining it. I use a micrometer to measure case expansion, as well as other indications. I have NO INTENTIONS of pushing this to absurd levels.

SAAMI pressure levels, by SAAMI's own words, are set for the "weakest" actions chambered for a particular cartridge. Not ALL actions, therfore there is leeway and room for improvement.

I've been handloading many different calibers for over 30 years and while I may have made some mistakes early on they are few and far between nowdays.

GB you and I have had some pretty frank conversations and as I stated my intentions are clear and I will not nor have not desired to share my load data with ANYONE. Someone elses rifle may not take where mine is already.

Steelhead,
Whatever that means. I grew up in Ohio, been hunting since I was 8, (43 years ago) and would like nothing more than to either convert this state to something other than the Hollyweird drivel we always hear about on the news. Just because they get the media, doesn't mean THEY ARE CALIFORNIA.

Most of thos idioat just come here to make their money, just like the pro sports players that people idolize.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2004, 12:57:25 AM »

Quote

SAAMI pressure levels, by SAAMI's own words, are set for the "weakest" actions chambered for a particular cartridge. Not ALL actions, therfore there is leeway and room for improvement.

I've been handloading many different calibers for over 30 years and while I may have made some mistakes early on they are few and far between nowdays.

I remeber using those arguements. I used case head expansion as an indicator too. Best of luck.
Merry Christmas

dave375hh · « **Reply #22 on:** December 24, 2004, 01:25:30 AM »

Handirifle,

Well you asked a question then argued with every possible answer you were given. You blatently ignore sound advice given in the intrest of your wellbeing and saftey. You puff and blow about how technically superior your methods are. My question is why did you lower yourself to talk to us lower lifeforms?

I only have one request, DON"T TELL ANYONE YOUR A RELOADER! it reflects poorly on we the lower lifeforms who use our brains.

handirifle · « **Reply #23 on:** December 24, 2004, 11:57:35 AM »

Dave
I'll answer your comment without the unnecessary insulting remarks you made. I have not EVER claimed to be superior to anyone nor have superior techniques. The comment I made was that I use methods given to me by experts that are writing the reloading manuals we use. They are not MINE but their methods for determining safe loads.

And YES I am a reloader.

When one has a point to make you make it. First off, the question I was asking has nothing to do with the comments and remarks I have gotten. I was asking a simple question about using different brass in the 375. I HAVE NEVER STATED what my loads are, yet I continue to be put down. Tell me how much powder I am using! Please, so I can go look it up in the manual. What, don't know? That's because I have never stated what type, brand or how much, yet EVERYONE seems to think I am crazy.

These same people will give praise to users of a 30-30 AI round that uses the EXACT SAME principles. More case volume=lower pressures with the same powder. More powder of slower burning type burns longer, therefor providing longer pressure peaks. No one here has a clue how much I am using and I'll keep it that way, just like I always intended to.

If you cannot comment without insulting, please don't comment. I have not ignored ANYTHING anyone has posted on this thread, it has all cause long pauses in thought and action, in addition to more review and research.

John, I cannot comment on what happened to you because I don't know all the details, but I do appreciate your concern as well as Graybeards.

FYI
My indicaters tell me I am approaching my max. When I see it for sure, my loads will be backed off by at least 5% and that will then become my maximum charge. If I do not reach my 2200fps goal, then Oh well.

I am always careful, no matter what some think.

I'll try the suggested items to the question I originally asked, hopefully it will take care of the problem. Thanks to all and Merry Christmas and Happy New year.

Greybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** December 24, 2004, 01:57:05 PM »

Quote

These same people will give praise to users of a 30-30 AI round that uses the EXACT SAME principles.

For the record. NOT ME! Every time a thread on the .30-30 AI comes up I make enemies by trying to convince folks they are playing with dynamite with the loads they are talking. I've worked with it. I've measured the increase in case capacity and it will not buy you the velocity increases at sane pressures folks are claiming.

The rule of thumb based on the laws of physics say volume buys you velocity at a ratio of 1% velocity for each 4% increase in volume of case. No more. Any more comes at the cost of higher pressure. This applies no matter the case used.

I do agree with your comment regarding SAAMI pressure limits. BUT the .375 is a very modern round with pressures right up there to the max limits of modern guns. I guess I'm not sure what gun you're using. Perhaps you've mentioned and it just escapes me. BUT it's already loaded to the max limits of the guns it has been chambered to and that SAAMI pressure on it is now low.

Still it's your body and I respect your right to abuse it if you wish. :lol:

handirifle · « **Reply #25 on:** December 24, 2004, 04:45:06 PM »

GB
So noted. Just FYI the 7-30 waters which is just a 30-30 AI necked down to 7mm has loads in the Hodgdons manual at 40,000 CUP, while the parent case, the 30-30 only is listed to 28,000.

Same brass more than likely, same gun, just made for newer guns and a more modern test.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Greybeard · « **Reply #26 on:** December 25, 2004, 01:43:33 AM »

Yup I agree, 40,000CUP is no sweat in any of the .30-30 based rounds even in TCs and strong modern lever guns. The .375 tho I think is up closer to 50,000 SAAMI. Pushing it higher puts you above SAAMI for many bolt action rounds. The .30-06 for instance. The .308 is only 52,000 I believe.

handirifle · « **Reply #27 on:** December 25, 2004, 12:23:36 PM »

But I have not pushed past pressures of the 375, primarily because it takes MORE powder in this case to reach the same pressure. The 375 is good to 52,000 psi.

With a larger case volume, it take more powder to reach the same pressure whether it's 50,000 or 40,000. I can take a max load from a 375 case and it shows less or no indication of "over pressure" in the 38-55 case than in the 375.

Trust me here, I am taking every precaution I would loading any other round or caliber.

The 45-70 case is a prime comparison the what I am doing. The 45-70 is listed with loads and pressures equaling the 450 Marlin, in the proper gun, even though the 450 brass is designed much stronger. Loading the 38-55 brass to 375 pressures is the same thing. More case volume+slower powder=higher velocity, at least to a point, on that I fully agree. There is a point where too much of ANY powder will produce excessive pressure. I won't go that far.

leverfan · « **Reply #28 on:** December 26, 2004, 09:13:16 AM »

handirifle-

I won't comment on your loads, or their safety, but I hope you asked Santa for an Oehler PBL. Those strain gauges will answer many of the questions and concerns that a hand loader might run into, properly used.

For my own loads, besides keeping track of case head expansion, I also pay lots of attention to measured velocity. If I'm way over the accepted/expected velocity for that round, I know that I'm over the accepted and expected pressure.

If I still want more velocity (which is very rare for me, as I'm not a believer in pushing velocity), I switch to a different round. There are lots of wildcats out there that could easily be chambered in various lever actions. Putting a new barrel onto a BLR or a Winchester '95 might be the way to reach some very impressive performance levels. Those would allow the use of spitzer bullets, holding on to all that velocity to longer ranges. The BLR would allow the use of wildcats based on the big, belted case, and the '95 can be rechambered to a 30-06 based .375 wildcat by Z-Hat custom guns.