another rifle explodes

[Vern Humphrey]

The trace requires direct contact with the original FFL seller -- there is no database to which you can go and find the purchaser.

[hkg3k]

The trace requires direct contact with the original FFL seller -- there is no database to which you can go and find the purchaser.

With respect, no one said anything about a database.  The rifles are however COMPLETELY & EASILY traceable to the 1st purchaser.  Period.

[Vern Humphrey]

Only by contacting the FFL holders who sold them, and who are under no obligation to help the company find the original purchaser.

Now, if you were talking automobiles, you'd be right -- dealers work for the company under the terms of their franchise and MUST participate in recalls.  But FFL dealers aren't franchised.

[hkg3k]

Only by contacting the FFL holders who sold them, and who are under no obligation to help the company find the original purchaser.

You're right, the dealer is under no obligation to help match a purchaser with a firearm which has the potential to cause great bodily injury or death, just as that same dealer is under no obiligation help law enforcement match a firearm with its purchaser short of a court order.

Since we don't live in a vacuum, I submit a failure to cooperate would at the least bring said dealer into the net of liability and would be even dumber than the shred of a counter-point you're trying to hold onto.  

[Vern Humphrey]

You're right, the dealer is under no obligation to help match a purchaser with a firearm which has the potential to cause great bodily injury or death, just as that same dealer is under no obiligation help law enforcement match a firearm with its purchaser short of a court order.

Since we don't live in a vacuum, I submit a failure to cooperate would at the least bring said dealer into the net of liability and would be even dumber than the shred of a counter-point you're trying to hold onto.  

Or not -- I don't see where dealers have been working overtime to help in this case.

[Todd1700]

As for the Sako/Tikka barrel problem my understanding is that the problem is only with a certain batch of stainless steel barrels. There is a recall in place so what else should Sako do? Sako doesn't have a list of every person that currently has one of these rifles. Sako can only contact the FFL dealers that purchased these guns and make them aware of the recall. But from that point on it's up to the people with the FFL to contact the individuals they sold one of these guns to.

As for the Remington safety problem that's a horse of a different color. This appears to have been an across the board design problem with a entire model of rifle that Remington knew about and didn't properly address.

Also, yes it is your responsibility where you point any firearm. I am pretty anal about it myself and I will not be around idiots that are consistently careless with the muzzle of their gun for very long. I will also flat out and bluntly tell someone that they need to watch what the hell they are doing if I spot the business end of a gun carelessly pointed in my direction. Having said this however can I say that in my 39 years of life that there has never been a circumstance in which I briefly and accidentally had a weapon pointed where it shouldn't have been pointed. No, I can't in complete honesty say that and I doubt seriously that very many people TRUTHFULLY can either. And even though those moments may have been very brief and extremely rare it was still damn nice to be holding a weapon that wouldn't fire unless my finger was on the trigger.

But that's just my opinion. I could be way off.

[longwinters]

But there are some people who don't think. . . I see it mostly with shotgun hunters that have their gun over their shoulder and as they swing around etc... the barrel/s is pointing right at your head.  NOT A GOOD FEELING!!!  

 But either way companies are morally and legally responsible for doing their best to ensure the safety of what they sell.  And it is our responsibility not to blow things way out of proportion like some have done on this thread.  I see a lot of smoke getting blown here by people who like to generalize so they can sound like they know something . . . it gets irritating.  

Long

[Carl l.]

Longwinters, Well said, I agree with you 100%  Carl L.

[260 AAR]

I have been shooting Remington 700s, 600 and whatever since the early 60s and they work fine. Since starting to work on them in the late 60s I have seen some that have had problems, mostly due to filthy neglect. I feel the rRemington trigger is one of the best but certain things should be done and others NOT! The trigger should be cleaned by a person familar with at least taking the stock off the rifle. The trigger should be cleaned with a good solvent[I use a brake cleaner] and then blown out with a moderate blast from an air hose. Too many I have seen have pine needles, dirt and such and this procedure should be done until the grime is gone. If it is too bad, take it to a gunsmith[factory trained preferred] and have him remove the trigger  and REALLY clean the parts. This more for a "liability" standpoint than anything else. Once clean use an oil that is recommended for the task from the factory. I use a graphite as it gets cold where I hunt and I do not like the gumminess of most the oils. Adjustment of the trigger can [and does] cause problems. Here again one comes to a point where perhaps a gunsmith is needed. The balancing of the tension screws of the sear engagement and weight need to be done by a person familar with the process. Too light a sear engagement and you got problems. Same with the weight of pull. I set almost all my HUNTING triggers at about 40 oz. This is fine for me. If all my rifles are set the same they all "feel" the same and my accuracy is better. On my Remingtons I store the rifle with the bolt open and drawn back a bit. This relieves the pressure of the cocking piece sitting on top of the sear and maybe[?] help the sear spring from taking a set. I also store  my rifles upside down to keep any oil from working it`s way to the back web of the stocks and softening the wood. On my kevlar guns I don`t bother. The trigger of ANY gun should be treated like the brakes on your rig. Proper care and maintenance of the brakes on your truck will help keep you and your passengers safe on the way to hunting. Proper care and maintenance of the trigger on your firearm will keep you and your hunting friends safe on the hunt. I agree 100% with Graybead that keeping the rifle in a safe position at ALL times is an absolute. Not just when you are with a group but by yourself too.
   I only had one really bad experience with a Remingto and that was in about 1974. I was making a Mod 600 into a 263 Express[ Mr Ken Waters version of the present 260 Rem] and a Marine did some loading for me. He was "usually" very competent but this time managed to lod about 46 grs of Bullseye into a Lake City NM case[instead of 46.0 H380] and cap it off with a Hornady 140 gr spitzer. It sounded like a Cherry Bomb as I test fired it down the test tube. The only outward appearance of a problem was the bolt handle broke off and cut my thumb[4 stitches] but nothing else! I tried to get the bolt to open but no luck. Finally removed the barrel and found the mess. Had to drive the bolt out with a brass drift as the bolt head had expanded well over the .710 of the standard bold diameter. Barrel was ok! [McGowans] I installed a new bolt and the rifle is still in the field today. Tim McCormick [Rem] said the pressures were somewhere in the120,000psi range. The action held as did the barrel. I have a picture of the bolt, case etc I will try to post if I can. Anyone interested if I can`t get the picture in can email me and I`ll send it to them. I think  I`ll stay with the Remingtons!!

Aloha, Mark[/img]

[Vern Humphrey]

But there are some people who don't think. . . I see it mostly with shotgun hunters that have their gun over their shoulder and as they swing around etc... the barrel/s is pointing right at your head.  NOT A GOOD FEELING!!!  

 But either way companies are morally and legally responsible for doing their best to ensure the safety of what they sell.  And it is our responsibility not to blow things way out of proportion like some have done on this thread.  I see a lot of smoke getting blown here by people who like to generalize so they can sound like they know something . . . it gets irritating.  

Long

No one can deny that with safe gun handling there would be no accidents.  And with safe driving, there would be no accidents.

But not everyone is safe.  That's why I expect the air bag to work on every car and the safety to work on every gun.  And if there's a particular car or gun that has a long-standing problem, I won't buy it.

[Inspector]

Don’t take my word for any of this. Ask Richard Barber, the father of Gus Barber, who was shot by his mother when she released the rifle's safety on her M700. The gun firing was an unexpected event for Gus's mother, she didn't touch the trigger, she just released the safety. Or just ask the many others that have had their M700’s discharge when their released the safety. Check out http://pagunowners.tripod.com/public/gunsafety.html to see where Remington paid $17 million to one party. Lawdog

If she shot her son she should be going to jail. NOT collecting large sums of money from the gun maker. You don't point a gun at something you're not willing to kill. If you do YOU and not the manufacturer shoud suffer the consequences. I am so sick and tired of the sue first and ask questions later society that lawyers have developed int his country. Damn it if the released the safety with the rifle pointed at her son she must have wanted to shoot him. IF not she is too stupid to be allowed around guns to begin with.

Don't be calling people stupid when you don't know the facts behind it. As I understand it, she was outside of the House UNLOADING the Rifle when it went off and struck her Son Inside the House.  You can bet that Remington/Dupont tried every thing in the book to get out of this settlement.
I have only ever seen Two AD's with Remington Rifles one 243 pointed at the Ground went off while I was watching the Guy unload it and His hand was no where near the trigger.
It fired when he chambered the THIRD ROUND on his ADL.  I saw another go off at the Range when the safety was pushed off on a NEW UNFIRED GUN and one went down range when they closed the Bolt on the Rifle.
You know what I am sick of?
Companies selling items that can kill you and then sluffing it off.
Hell  Ruger redesigned the Blackhawk Revolvers because of an accidental discharge in 1973 and is to be commended for this action.
People whe can't or won't accept responsibility for "bad Ideas" that result in People getting killed are ramant in Business and Govt. these days and should be taken out of the Market.  The Remington safety problem has been going on since DAY ONE and the settlements have been in the Multi Millions of dollars.
One can only wish that Companies that know they have a problem yet keep selling their product to a GULLIBLE consumer would go out of Business. Unfortunately they won't so there is no use in beating Dead Horses or buying another Remington 700 unless you want to "intentionally" shoot someone.

[Graybeard]

Don't be calling people stupid when you don't know the facts behind it. As I understand it, she was outside of the House UNLOADING the Rifle when it went off and struck her Son Inside the House.

If you point a loaded gun at a house you are STUPID. Sorry but I know of no other way to put it. Don't point the damn thing at something you're not willing to shoot. Anyone who does not understand that or get it is STUPID!

I have only ever seen Two AD's with Remington Rifles one 243 pointed at the Ground went off while I was watching the Guy unload it and His hand was no where near the trigger.
It fired when he chambered the THIRD ROUND on his ADL. I saw another go off at the Range when the safety was pushed off on a NEW UNFIRED GUN and one went down range when they closed the Bolt on the Rifle.

BUT do you know for an ABSOLUTE FACT that neither rifle had been tampered with? Just because it was unfired doesn't mean it hadn't been tampered with.

You know what I am sick of?
Companies selling items that can kill you and then sluffing it off.

A gun that can kill? DUH! Get a clue. The ALL CAN. That's why you don't point them at something you aren't willing to kill. It's called being a responsible gun owner.

Unfortunately they won't so there is no use in beating Dead Horses or buying another Remington 700 unless you want to "intentionally" shoot someone.

Now THAT was a STUPID comment. And if you don't understand that it is you've got a problem.

[mr.frosty]

Remington had a small book "The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety"
my dad made me learn that book before I could even carry a Marlin
model 60 and that was over 30 years ago. My point being is don't
point a gun at anything, living or otherwise, you are not going to shoot.

[Todd1700]

If you point a loaded gun at a house you are STUPID. Sorry but I know of no other way to put it. Don't point the damn thing at something you're not willing to shoot. Anyone who does not understand that or get it is STUPID!

As I said before it sure must be nice to have been perfect your whole life. Of course it's easier to be perfect over the internet than in real life. I'd be willing to bet that nobody on this website can say with 100 percent HONEST certainty that the barrel of their rifles from childhood to now has never been briefly pointed in the wrong direction. Of course there are some who will say it hasn't but as I said before internet perfection is much more easily achieved than actual perfection.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't be absolutely diligent about it and TRY to be perfect. And it's fine to preach the hardcore line on this subject. But strange things can happen and your gun shouldn't fire without a finger on the trigger. Besides as another poster said, even if it's pointed in a safe direction who wants a gun that can fire when you take the safety off? Hell even pointed at the ground it could still deflect off a rock and kill someone. I can't believe people are defending a weapon that could do this.

[Inspector]

Hell even pointed at the ground it could still deflect off a rock and kill someone. I can't believe people are defending a weapon that could do this.

GB,
I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on the Safety of Remington 700 Rifles. what I find unusual is that the Winchester M70 produced since 1937 has had a safety that is safe until you take it off safe. Then again it is a different design that blocks the Firing pin until you place it in the Fire position. I can't say that either of the rifles I saw have an AD were not Tampered with. However since the One had just come from the Dealer in the Box and wrapping and the other ones Owner called the Trigger a "strut", had owned the Gun since New, only got it out of the Closet to Hunt Deer one day a Year, and had the Mechanical ability of a Moose, I doubt that either had been "smoothed up".
My problem with the 700 is that Remington has not made any effort to correct this problem since 1962 and before on the 721/722 series.
I have seen weed seeds get into the Sear and trigger and cause them not to work correctly, I have seen old style lubricants freeze the Trigger into a position where it won't engage the Sear, to make this Gun safer only requires a different trigger design, of which there are MANY. However that requires retooling and more cash outlay from the Manufacturer.
What causes  the majority of the problem is the "Home Gunsmith" that gets a couple screwdrivers and fixes his trigger just like the gun writers do and has no clue as to Sear engagement, etc.
I own several Remington 700s, BUT all of them have after market triggers on them because I don't need any accidents.  :grin:



Todd1700,
So your willing to admit your not Perfect too? :grin:  :grin:
I guess you and I don't live right? :-)
Speaking of Richochets, a 100 Grain Core lockt coming off the Ground at High speed will put a very imperfect Hole in a Pick up door :lol:

[Todd1700]

So your willing to admit your not Perfect too?

Yes, but you and I seem to be in the minority. The internet is an amazing place. I've met hundreds of people on it that are totally infallible on safety issues (never slipped on one EVER) and hundreds of others who can not only shoot consistent .25 inch groups at 100 yards but also hit running deer in the eye at 300 yards freehanded.  Until I got online I was under the impression that such perfect records and amazing abilities would be sort of rare but boy howdy was I wrong.

[Patriot_1776]

What I am beginning to understand and take to heart, is there is NO ONE "safe" direction to point a firearm.  The ONLY "SAFE" place to point a firearm, is any direction where an accidental discharge will not endanger someone, or something one does not want to shoot.  That seems simple enough.  So, the terms "keep it pointed towards the ground," or "keep it pointed in the air" by themselves just don't hold water anymore.  ANYONE who is carrying ANY firearm MUST ensure that should any accidental or intentional discharge occur, it MUST be in a direction that WILL NOT pose a threat to an unintended object OR person.  It is the firearm's owner and the owner alone who's responsibility must be in check to insure the safety of those around him.  That would include making sure his firearm is in PROPER and SAFE working condition, and by taking efforts to prevent ANY unauthorized access to his firearms.  I think this thread should be locked to prevent it from getting too out of hand; it seems to be going nowhere.

-Patriot

[Broken-arrow]

Yes, safe gun-handling is THE most important part of being a gun owner. But, If, and I said If, there is a problem , how can any-one justify defending a company that refuses to do something about it ?

[Patriot_1776]

There is no justification to be had towards ANY company that has a problem with their product, and does not do anything about it.  BUT, all "locked-and-loaded" firearms are prominently on the verge of discharging.  The only thing preventing it is the sear engagement, which is released when the trigger is pulled.  But so much trust should not be imparted on such a small ( and possibly un-reliable) device.  Even the safety on a gun is not a fail-proof design.  It is only an EXTRA MEASURE to help prevent a catastrophe; not a cure.  Just as a vehicle with airbags is not an excuse to not wear a seatbelt.  SAFE GUN HANDLING HAS ALSO BEEN DEVELOPED IN CASE A MALFUNCTION SHOULD OCCUR.  IF PROPERLY FOLLOWED,  CHANCES ARE GREATLY REDUCED THAT A MALFUNCTION WILL ENDANGER SOMEONE OR SOMETHING.  Please note, I am not in a state of anger or yelling.  I use it in all capitals, as I'm sure they do when something of the utmost importance is to be heeded in many firearms manuals and saftey courses taken throughout America .  But either way, there is no "fail-proof" device anywhere in the world as yet. :cry:  

-Patriot

[Broken-arrow]

Patriot, you're absolutely right on all accounts, But is it not the responsibility of the manufacturer to make their products as "idiot proof" as possible? Because we all know there are lots of "idiots" who own guns.
 Don't get me wrong, I think the model 700 is one of, if not the best bolt-actions ever made. And personally I've never had a bad experience with any-thing made by Remington. But you have to be open-minded about this issue.  :money:

[Patriot_1776]

B.A.,

I'm glad our discussion has not taken a wrong turn.  I do have an open mind, as well as surely think they should make them as "idiot" proof as possible.  But it can only be taken so far.  The point is, how can someone really own a firearm without "de-idiot-izing" himself?  To purchase a rifle, at least in CA, I believe you have to have your hunter's saftey certificate present at the purchase.  So with that in mind, how can one get a firearm and still not know how to handle it properly and safely?  It seems to me that the whole idea of "dumb-proofing" all firearms 100% or around there, is nearly impossible.  Mfgs can't be around and using firearms all the time to make sure they are close to "fail-proof", as that would be an insurmountable task of money and time; the purchasers of their products are able to help the Mfgs in that manner.  There are always going to be some sort of new "thing" found to be wrong with a firearm.  And that must be dealt with accordingly by the Mfg, and the firearm's owner.  But I think alot of necessary measures have been taken "somewhat" by many Mfgs to keep guns safely operating, but I believe it is all up to the people/gun owners to help iron out the rest.  Another thing, is the owner should have sense enough to teach a person who is new to the use of firearms for a certain amount of time, before he lets them even shoot it at the range.    

In this situation though, I think there are two things that need to be dealt with if BOTH are true.  The company, should be charged with (possible criminal) negligence over their product if they have been repeatedly warned and have ignored the safety issue.  The person who was holding/owning the gun when it went off and killed someone should be held with gross ( and also possible criminal) negligence because of the fact that said person should realize any locked and loaded gun may discharge at ANY time; hence, keep it pointed in a direction where if someone were to COME into the danger zone, and were the gun TO FIRE, that person would not be killed or severely injured.  Same goes for the consideration of other people's property and livestock if near the hunting area.    

-Patriot

[Broken-arrow]

Well said Patriot, These days no-one will hold theirselves accountable for their actions. Blame it on the lawyers, or maybe just the new generation.  But any-way , enough said. The boss is calling, ( I got way behind on the honey-doos during deer season.)

                                                              Broken-arrow

[Terrible Tom]

Gun safety and personal responsibility issues aside, any manufacturer of a defective product (especialyl where the defect is potentially life threatening) should voluntarily recall, repair and then redesign said product.  If they fail to do so voluntarily, they should be forced to do so by the legal system.  It sounds to me like Remington redesigned their safety to permit unloading of a chambered round while the safety was still on.

I have an older Ruger M77 with a two-position tang safety that locks the bolt.  Rather similar to the old Remington design, at least where function is concerned.  I have to !gasp¡ place the safety in the 'fire' position to remove a round from the chamber.  So far, no accidental dicharges.

There's no excuse for careless gun handling, and there's a sad lack of personal responsibility in 21st century America but a defective product is a defective product.