Would someone help me understand...

[WARPhEAGLE]

I am in the market for a new rifle, I hope to go to Colorado next fall for deer/elk hunt. I have never owned a long range deer rifle, and I am trying to decide the best caliber for my purposes. Can someone explain to me the practial differences between:

1. 300 Win Mag
2. 300 Wthby Mag
3. 300 WSM

Any benefits of one of the 3 regarding reloading?

Which do you prefer?
Is there another caliber you like better for this type hunt?

What is minimum barrel length for good shooting?

Sorry if I am asking too many questions at once.
All opinions welcome.

[Buckfever]

Any of the listed calibers.

300 Win Mag. and a 24 '' barrel

There are some smaller non magnums that will work very well also

30-06 , 308, 270.  Dead is dead, use less powder and kick less.

Buckfever

[KYsquirrelsniper]

I haven't shot a 300WSM, but considering that the ballistics are basically identical to a 300 Win mag, I'd say the terminal performance would be the same too. The 300 Weatherby is a bit faster than the other two, but other than a couple inches difference in trajectory and a little bit more recoil, I don't think you'll be able to tell a difference on game. Even with my 300 RUM which is just a little bit faster than the Weatherby, I can't tell any on-game performance difference between it and the 300 Win mag, I just get kicked harder and have a couple inches flatter trajectory at longer ranges.

As for reloading differences, the WSM doesn't have a belt so it headspaces on the shoulder. Of course for a reloader, you can adjust the die so that the 300 Win and WBY headspace on the shoulder too. So really there's no practical difference there. The Weatherby calibers usually have a very long freebore, so you can pretty much forget about loading bullets out to touch the lands. However, for hunting use where you'll need to use the magazine, it will just be luck to get a factory rifle with a throat short enough to be able to load bullets out to touch the lands and still fit them in the magazine anyway. There's more types of brass available for the 300 Win mag than the other two if that's a concern.

For barrel length, 24" is enough for good performance with the 300 Win and it should be fine for the 300WSM too. With the 300 WBY, you really need at least 26" to get the most from its extra powder capacity.

If it was me, I'd go with the 300 Win mag and a 24" barrel. For all practical purposes, it will do everything you need to be attempting with a 30 caliber rifle, and factory ammo and brass are plentiful.

[Steelhead]

Since as you say you have never owned a LONG range deer rifle, is is safe to assume you haven't done any LONG range shooting using field positions? If so, I would first suggest you practice longer range shots with what you have a determine your ability, assuming all you have isn't a 30/30. The cartridge and or rifle does not make one a long range shooter.

Enough with that.

haven't shot a 300WSM, but considering that the ballistics are basically identical to a 300 Win mag, I'd say the terminal performance would be the same too. The 300 Weatherby is a bit faster than the other two, but other than a couple inches difference in trajectory and a little bit more recoil, I don't think you'll be able to tell a difference on game. Even with my 300 RUM which is just a little bit faster than the Weatherby, I can't tell any on-game performance difference between it and the 300 Win mag, I just get kicked harder and have a couple inches flatter trajectory at longer ranges.

I would agree, and take it a bit further and say that the 30/06 will only differ a few inches and do it all also.

[dbuck]

I'm going to give you the best advice you will ever get, stay away from the mags and buy you a 30-06 with a 24" barrel, Weatherby Vanguard is a excellent choice.

Four of us went to Colorado several weeks ago and came back with 4 bull elks and three mule deers and everyone was shooting a 30-06.  My son-in-law and myself were using Barnes 168 Triple Shock bullets that I had reloaded, my shot was 169 yards and his was 250 yards and both bull elk drop in their tracks, dead, the other two guys shots were in the two hundred plus range and their elks just went a few feet. (dead is dead)

Get the rifle and get and excllent 3X9 or 3X10 scope and go out and practice, practice, practice.  Shot placement is the key to big game hunting.  To many guys read to many gun magazines and everyone has to have a 300 WinMag.  Most guys flinch when they shoot them.

dbuck

[Graybeard]

When you run across a job the .30-06 will not do for you then what you need is a fatter bullet not a faster one. I'm an adamant detractor of the magnum .30s. Inside 300 yards where well over 90% of game is likely killed they really offer nothing. If you're an over 300 yard marksman you already KNOW what you need and want and wouldn't likely be asking here. So if a job requires more gun than the .30-06 the logical move in my mind is to a larger bore. Say to a .338 or .35 or even a .375 but not to a super dooper magnum pooper.

Yes magnum guys jump in with both feet and argue. You'll never convince me any more than I will convince you.

[victorcharlie]

Once again, Greybeard is dead on.  I call it the big "Richard" syndrome.  A good 270 or 280, as well as a 30.06 will shoot farther than I am capable of shooting.

Save yourself some pain, no need to take the beating from a "magnum".

[Ramrod]

I'll jump in and agree 100% with Graybeard, Steelhead, dbuck and victorcharlie. If you can't get it done in North America with a .30-06, you can't get it done with any .30 cal. You need a bigger bullet. Long ago a famous gunwriter said " There are plenty of 300 yard rifles, but where are the 300 yard riflemen". Nowadays they tout the magnums as 400 yard rifles, give me a break. Maybe not more than 1 hunter out of 100 should ever take a 400 yard shot at big game.

[victorcharlie]

amazing how small a deer is at 400 yards.......

[Bubba Jack]

What Deer?

[Lawdog]

WARPhEAGLE,

I hope to go to Colorado next fall for deer/elk hunt.

Depending on where in Colorado you will be hunting I would stick with your choice of a .300 magnum maybe even go to a .338 Winchester Magnum.  The reason is that in many places in Colorado the Grizzly Bears have learned that a gun shot means a fresh gut pile and a easy meal.  Sure there are a number of non-magnum cartridges that will work nicely for deer/elk BUT would you rather have a .30-06 in your hands or a .300 magnum if a bears comes while your in the middle of dressing out your game?  And a 26” barrel works best for large magnum types.  If you are going the magnum route then you might as well make sure all the powder gets burned where it will do the most good.  My personal choice is get a .300 Weatherby Magnum and hunt with pride.  Lawdog
 

[Steelhead]

Grizzly Bears have learned that a gun shot means a fresh gut pile and a easy meal. Sure there are a number of non-magnum cartridges that will work nicely for deer/elk BUT would you rather have a .30-06 in your hands or a .300 magnum if a bears comes while your in the middle of dressing out your game?

I can assure you Grizzly bears are FAR less impressed with velocity then about anything I know. I would MUCH prefer a BIG slow bullet myself. that said, a 30/06 with FIVE 200 grain Partitions would be just fine. Plus the joy of throwing that 300WBy around with 26" of barrel at knife fighting range doesn't give me warm feelings.  In fact I would sooner have a 45 Colt with some STIFF loads behind a 325grain Hard cast bullet, or of course a 416 ANYTHING.

As stated to notice any kind of dramatic effect on critters, one needs to move up in bullet diameter and weight, NOT velocity.

[Judson]

I will have to sort of go with the old gray one on this.    However I do like the mags but unless you are an expert, do not kid your self here, keep it under 300 yards and even then practice.    For normal either American, or African planes game type critters the 3006 is OK, not great but a strong OK.    For 300 pound and up stuff or those that might eat you give me a .338 or a .375 H&H neither of which are beyond the recoil limits of the average shooter of shot guns especially in the 3" mag class.    The ultra zip supper mage really fall into the speciality category and though I may start up some fuss here most shooters can not and should not capitalize on their long range potential.    Go with something like the .300 Win it has been around for a long time, it works and will be around for years to come pluss you can get ammo any where in the world for it.   If you are concerned with recoil then stick with the old 3006.    
  Truth be if I was going up from the 3006 I would go to the .338 or more probably the .375.    Now I have a two gun battery with which I can hunt any thing any where in the world at any practical range.

[Graybeard]

The reason is that in many places in Colorado the Grizzly Bears have learned that a gun shot means a fresh gut pile and a easy meal.

Now perhaps I'm only gonna show my ignorance here (ignorant equals lack of knowledge of a specific subject) but just where and how many grizzy bears are in Colorado? Now if you had said Alaska I'd have understood. But Colorado? Enlighten me.

[z1]

Seems I remember a gentleman named Jack O'Conner, did I get that right?, dispatched a mess of elk with a 270 Winchester.  Stretching a bit here, but I think his wife did in more than a few with a 7x57.
 
Like the man said, dead is dead.  They only get that way if you shoot them, not shoot at them.

[Judson]

One thing yall got to keep in mind is this!     You are paying for this hunt and due to this you do not want to be in a position when that trophy walks in of having to say to your guide.    "Well that is a great,(what ever) but with my itty bitty gun I do not have a shot.    Or the other extreme is having to say; "Well if I had a bigger, more powerful rifle I would have bagged him, not wounded lost him, but at least I hit!!"
   I am not saying that Magnums make up for poor shooting, they do not, however use enough gun to limit the shots you have to pass up.    I am also not saying take those long range shots.    I am sure I will stur up some stuff but the vast number of shooters have no business shooting at game at over 300 yards, most much less!!!    I am not excluding my self from this category and I probably fire more ammo per year then most shooters.    What ever range you can put all your bullets in side a 6" circle from what ever position you are shooting from is your max. range for big game.   A wounded critter is not a consolation prize!!!    Also if you want to go for the big stuff then learn to shoot a rifle with enough bullet weight, sectional density and energy to ensure a one shot kill.    For four hundred pound animals and up this will probably be a magnum but the best choices would be one of the time proven classics like the .338 or the .375 H&H.

[Graybeard]

Precisely Judson. A faster .30 ain't the answer. If you need more go to a bigger and heavier bullet. But for most all shooting anyone has any business doing the .30-06 is enough. For when it isn't a faster .30 is not the answer. Doubt I'll ever have the money to go after elk but if I do I have a .35 Whelen which I'm confident will do the job as far as I'll be willing to shoot.

[Vern Humphrey]

My elk rifle is Bigfoot Wallace, a custom '03 Springfield built by CW Fitch of Phoenix in the late '60s or early '70s.  This rifle is in .35 Brown-Whelen (the most radical form of the Whelen.)  It will put a 225 grain Nosler Partion Jacket across the chrony at 2800 fps.  And that makes a great elk rifle.

But if I were in the market for a new elk rifle, I'd go for a .30-06 -- custom made rifles from a classic maker being hard to find these days.  Buy light magnum or high energy loads with 165-grain or 180-grain premium bullets (the ammo cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the total hunt cost.)

[mr.frosty]

amazing how small a deer is at 400 yards.......

you can see 400yds? i need your eye doctors name im doing good
to 40yards... :shock:

[Sigma]

Seems I remember a gentleman named Jack O'Conner, did I get that right?, dispatched a mess of elk with a 270 Winchester.  Stretching a bit here, but I think his wife did in more than a few with a 7x57.
 
Like the man said, dead is dead.  They only get that way if you shoot them, not shoot at them.

Here, some exerpts from Jack O'Connor's book, "The Hunting Rifle", which I picked up a while back:

On the .270 for elk, Page 75:

"Some years ago I was hunting elk in Wyoming with Les Bowman, a long-time guide and outfitter and extremely knowledgeable about guns. Below me about 250 to 300 yards away was a big bull quartering away from me. I put a 150-grain .270 bullet through the ribs high on the left side. It angled on down through the lungs and smashed the right shoulder. The elk was down and stone dead before I could get another cartridge in the chamber. Les surveyed the damage. "If anyone ever tells me that .270 isn't an elk cartridge," he said, "I'll tell him he's nuts."

On his wife's experience using the 7x57 for all kinds of game, page 93:

"The 7x57 is my wife's favorite cartridge and she does a sensational job of shooting with it. In Mozambique in 1962 she collected seventeen head of game with nineteen shots. The only animal that took more than one shot was a kudu bull that didn't know when it was dead."

Food for thought from a very experienced and honest hunter. I recommend his writings highly.

Now, for that 7x57 I need to get...... :wink:

Regards

[Donaldo]

Before springing the bucks for a 300 magnum anything see if you can get someone that owns one to let you shoot it a bit.  Most will just about dislocate your shoulder and flinching will be the result.  And if you develop a flinch and just hate to pull that trigger then you ain't gonna hit that elk or muley.  Hitting the animal in the proper place is a heap more important than what you hit him with, up to a point of course.  My favorite is the 30-06 with a 165 grain bullet.  You can get pretty close to 3,000 fps, well maybe 2900 or so but that is plenty.  I have shot clear thru a big muley front to rear with the '06 and a 165 Hornady.  So, some good advice been given, go with the 270, 280 or 06 and learn how to shoot it so you can hit that big bull right in the boiler room.  IMHO magnum-itis has caused more problems than it has solved.

[clyde72]

Can't remember where I read it or when, nor who the guide was, however he and the person writing the aritcle were both well known.

The guide of course was an elk guide.  He stated that he would much rather see a client get off the plane with a 30-06 than any other larger or faster gun.  The reason being what has already been stated here.  Most people can shoot a 30-06 much better than a mag, and it is more than enough gun for the job.

[victorcharlie]

Funny thing Mr. Frosty......for the last seven or eight years I was wearing reading glasses from the drug store.......I finally thought I'd get the insurance company to pay their part for a real pair.......I told the eye doctor " I see pretty good far off, I just can't see well close up."  He did the exam and then told me..."you can't see far off either."  I didn't know how poor my eyes were......Well, with the new glasses, I can now see ity bity deer at 400 yards......I'd gladly give you the name of my eye doctor......for some of your hot hog spots!

Actually, several of the guys on our Bowater lease got togather and decided one of the fellows with a .300 RUM wouldn't be invited back after taking a very,very long shot (and missing).   Seems they were worried about the bullet coming down somewhere in the next county, or hitting one of them.  

Funny how those big magnums makes a fellow an expert shot at ranges to far to be estimated without the aid of a laser.  Heck, who needs a laser when they have a RUM?  And if you hit em in the toe nail they fall over dead........

[Steve E]

While I don't always agree with everything Graybeard says this time he hit it dead on. If the 06 won't kill it cleanly a few more fps won't do it either. More frontal bullet area or mass or whatever you want to call it is called for. The 06 will take anything in the North America, although I would want a bigger caliber for the big Brownies. When it comes to something that can cause you harm I don't think it hurts to be over gunned.

                                          Steve E............

[RaySendero]

....The 06 will take anything in the North America, although I would want a bigger caliber for the big Brownies. When it comes to something that can cause you harm I don't think it hurts to be over gunned.
....

Steve,

Now I'm curious -

Just what dooo you consider to be "over gunned" for a charging Grizzly?

[MickinColo]

Hi WARPhEAGLE,

What a Post!!

First off you’re coming up here from Alabama. That’s not going to be easy, the air is thin up here. You’re going to be sucking air like crazy no matter how good of shape you’re in (the locals have a hard enough time in the mountains). Pick your equipment wisely and that means everything including your clothing. You need light equipment.

As far as a rifle goes, any caliber rifle that shoots at a minimum, a quality 150 grain bullet traveling at lease 2600 fps (accurately) will kill an elk to 200 yards. Anything heavier and faster is gravy and anything lighter is marginal, if not a stunt.

The 3 calibers you mention, 300 Win, Wby, Wsm are good calibers. All 3 will thump you (particularly the Weatherby). Can you handle the thumping? By that I mean, can you shoot it without flinching?

No matter how big your bullet is, the speed it’s traveling, or distance it has to cross. If you don’t place your bullet in the Vitals of an elk (a hard hip, spin, or brain shot will stop them but that’s not were I usually put my crosshairs) it’s going to be traveling some distance and it’s not always to an access road.

It’s your money. Buy anything you want as far as a rifle goes.  But all you really need is a 270 Win. That you can shoot close to MOA with a 150 grain bullet.

I personally like the 7mm Rem Mag, and the 300 Win Mag for elk. But I’m not afraid of using a 270 Win, 7mm Mauser, 308 Win, or a 30-06.

[Vern Humphrey]

I have an advantage, living in the Ozarks -- I prepare for elk season by climbing hills -- I have a walk laid out that has about 1000 feet of climbing in 7 miles.  While not at the altitude of the Rockies, it really helps.

Many of my hunting friends like the 7mm Remington Magnum -- and the most often heard reason is "less recoil."  To me that makes a lot of sense.  With a long, heavy premium bullet, you have all you need and more for elk, and you can put it where it should be put.

[Coyote Hunter]

Being a reloader, I don't pay much attention to the prices of factory ammo, but you might want to check into the diifferences in costs -- I suspect the .300 Win Mag will have the lowest costs by a few $$$ a box.  I know last time I looked there was a very hefty premium for .300 Federal's Weatherby ammo and even more for Weatherby's own ammo.  Handloading reduces the cost delta significantly but the Weatherby case will still use the most powder and the brass will probably cost more.

Ballistically, the WSM and Win Mag are two peas in a pod, a slight edge going to the Win Mag in terms of velocity -- but chances are you'll never notice a ***practical*** difference for hunting purposes.  Depending on the load data the .300 Weatherby is a step up, gaining as little as 50fps and up to 150fps or so for the same bullet.

For elk the .300 WSM or Win Mag is more than enough.  I thiink they are also more practical for smaller game, which is probably what you will use your rifle for most of the time.  In 20+ years of elk hunting I've only taken one shot over 300 yards, and a good .30-06 load could have handled that  - you don't need to plan for the 500 yard shot nearly as much as you need to practice for the 350 and under.  

Maybe you can find a 3-sided coin...?

[ms]

Before going out and buying a rifle go down to the rifle range talk to the guys that have those 300 mag ask them if you can shoot them. If you like them get one if not  get a standard cal. :lol:

[Broken-arrow]

I still want to here about the grizzlies in Colorado. Last time I went I slept in a tent with only my archery gear.  :shock: