416 Rem Mag Bullet

[crow_feather]

I went out and tried the 300 grain 416 Barnes bullets.  They fly fast and the recoil is not all that bad for a 416.  They are accurate and I understand that the triple shock is now being made in the 300 grain 416.

Has the 375 reached the end of it's usefulness?

C F

[Lawdog]

crow_feather,

Has the 375 reached the end of it's usefulness?

Actually the .375 H&H will be around LONG after the .416 Remington has been forgotten.  Even Remington quit chambering rifles for it.  Maybe the question should be how much longer will the .416 Remington be around?  Lawdog
 

[crow_feather]

It was limited with only the 350 and 400 grain bullet, but now with the new 300 grain Barnes bullets, it's like a 338 on steroids.  2900 fps, or you can throttle it down to 2600 fps for deer.

Maybe it's time for the 375 to stand aside

C F

[Ramrod]

Maybe it's time for the 375 to stand aside

Naw, CF. Not yet, maybe in about 100 years.   This reminds me of all the great calibers that were gonna kill off the good old 30-06.

[crow_feather]

The 30-06 is dead, cept for the funeral.  The 300 WSM is gonna be the new king.  Might take a while, but the die is cast.  I myself prefer the 30-06, but those following behind, always look for the better.  It does seem sentiment plays a part in the selection of calibers.

C F

[Ramrod]

.30-06 dead?  :-D  I remember when they said that about the .45-70! Sorry, I aint buyin into no fad guns, the old traditional numbers have outlasted most of the new-fangled cartridges introduced over the last 50 or so years. And I know I'll be able to get .30-06 or .375 H&H cartridges 20 years from now, but I bet you'll get some awfull funny looks from the kid behind the counter when you ask for .300 WSM or .416 REM. He will probably hand you a box of regular .300 WIN Magnum and a box of .416 RIGBY. :roll:

[crow_feather]

O K Ramrod, I went to a store the other day and asked for 416 Remington Mag cartridges.  The person behind the counter said " I'm sorry Sir, obviously you are a person with knowledge of great calibers, but the store won't stock those calibers that are truely great fearing PETA will picket the store."  "We only stock those mundane calibers like the 30-06 and 375 H&H."

(If the truth be known, I can't afford to buy 416 cartridges - I don't own a bank. So I have to reload.)

[leverfan]

The 30-06 is dead, cept for the funeral.  The 300 WSM is gonna be the new king.  C F

Hmmmm.  Interesting predictions for the future.  Maybe you should ask Santa for a new crystal ball this year, I think your's is cracked. :-D

[crow_feather]

Hey Fella,
If my ball is cracked, it's because I used it as a 500 yard target for my 416 Rem Mag.  O K,   O K,   400 yard target.  But I will admit that I only hit it 9 outa 10 times.

C F

[oso45-70]

crow_feather,

I doubt the 375 will exit the hunting world in our life time. The one i thought wouldnt fade out was the 300 H&H. In 1951 i had a 300 H&H and a375 H&H and the 300 is almost dead. I look at all the gun shows i go to and they are few and far between. Which shows that there is a fad with the 30 cal mags. As far as the 416 Rem goes i think it is one heck of a fine cal. rifle. I have both the 416 rem and the 375 H&H and feel that they both are here to stay. Remington may have discontinued the 416 rem but there are a lot of people that feel it is a fine cal. Good luck........Joe.........

[crow_feather]

I had a 300 H&H for years. It shot everything from elk to antelope.  I handloaded it, but loaded it only a couple hundred feet per sec over the 30-06.  It truly is a great caliber.  I lost it to a bad gunsmith who basically destroyed it.  

What gets me is the amount of 416 Rigby's out there.  I am not anti-416 Rigby, but except for sentiment, it really has nothing over the more efficient 416's.  Especially now that powder companys sell powder that isn't temperature sensitive.


C F

[Lawdog]

crow_feather,

What gets me is the amount of 416 Rigby's out there. I am not anti-416 Rigby, but except for sentiment, it really has nothing over the more efficient 416's.

Which "more efficient 416's" are you referring to?  Lawdog
 

[leverfan]

What gets me is the amount of 416 Rigby's out there.  I am not anti-416 Rigby, but except for sentiment, it really has nothing over the more efficient 416's.  Especially now that powder companys sell powder that isn't temperature sensitive.

Well, in a strong bolt action, you can load a Rigby up to nearly the same velocity as a 416 Weatherby, or you can load it to it's original ballistics.  The "efficient" 416s are running at max, and there's no way to get any more out of them in terms of velocity.  A Rigby can be loaded to 100 fps more than a 416 Remington, still have room to go faster, and still be running at a lower pressure.  Even with temperature insensitive powders, it's nice to have an extra safety margin, not to mention a case body that's designed to slide in and out of a chamber slicker than frozen snot.

Plus, there's that history/sentiment thing.

[Ramrod]

Plus, there's that history/sentiment thing.

Even CF should understand that, given his muzzleloading interest! :-)
What really amazes me is how consistently the Big Gun Companies underestimate the allure of these historic rounds when they introduce their "better" versions, considering how often the new rounds fall flat on their face.

[crow_feather]

The way I see it, you have the 416 Rem and 416 Rigby, both pretty much the same with velocity, +/- 100 fps.  The Rigby uses approx 100 grains of powder to get the same velocity as the Remington that only uses 80 grains of powder.  (more efficient)

I got a great deal on a Winchester custom shop Super Express 416 Rem.  I have to be loyal to the 416 that I bought.  Therefore, I am sentimental.  

I also enjoy discussing the different 416's and their merrits.  The Remington by the way, is extremely accurate.  :wink:

I have bought a few rifles where ammunition became a problem for other than handloaders.  It does drop the resale of the rifle.  With the cost of new rifles, it makes a non-handloader lean towards the cartridges guranteed to be on the shelves in 10 years.

C F

[leverfan]

The way I see it, you have the 416 Rem and 416 Rigby, both pretty much the same with velocity, +/- 100 fps. (big snip)With the cost of new rifles, it makes a non-handloader lean towards the cartridges guranteed to be on the shelves in 10 years.C F

It's plus or minus 200 fps, if you handload.  The Rigby can produce a full 200 fps more velocity than the Remington, while still operating at a lower pressure.  I failed to give the Rigby enough credit in my earlier post.  Lower pressure interests me more than the velocity difference, because lower pressure rounds tend to be easier to work with.    

As far as leaning towards rounds that will still be on the shelves in 10 years, I guess that favors the 30-06, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, and others that have proved their staying power over the last century or so.  

Winchester, aided by the outdoor press, is doing an excellent job of getting a really good ride out of the WSM/WSSM craze.  Some of those calibers will still be chambered 20 years from now in factory rifles, but many of them won't.  The 30 WSM will probably stick around, just because there's always room for one more 30 caliber in the American market.  We'll see if it outlasts the 300 Winchester or not.

I'm sure that the 30-06 will be on gun shop shelves for as long as we have gun shops to go to.  The 416s will wax and wane with the times, but the 375 H&H isn't going anywhere.  It's too darn good.

[crow_feather]

Alliant reloading manual:

wght                Rigby          Rem
300                  2590           2890
350                  2455           2610
400                  2360           2445


Accurate reloading manual:

wght                Rigby          Rem
400                  2337           2449

Nosler lists the 416 Rem but doesn't list the Rigby.

It seems that if you go to the velocity you are purposing, you will be exceeding the recomendations of the powder companies.  

I'm afraid that with the 338 on one side and the more efficient 416's on the other, the Rigby has seen a bit of a comeback, but it will eventually go the way of the 358 Winchester, 356 Winchester, 35 Whelen, and others.

C F

[leverfan]

CF-

You need to go hunt up a Lyman #47 reloading manual.  The #48 has reduced the Rigby to factory specs, but the earlier manual gives a better idea of the round's potential.  The max loads in the #47 would not be a good choice in a double gun, or a poorly made conversion, which is why Lyman no longer lists them.  At any rate, that's where my information is coming from.  According to Lyman's tests, those loads are perfectly safe in a good bolt action rifle.

If we can have 3 pressure levels for the 45-70, depending on the firearm used, surely there's room for 2 pressure levels for an old hunting round like the 416 Rigby.  Perhaps that extra flexibility will prevent it from ending up on your scrap-heap of outdated cartridges.

It helps to remember that the monstrous 416 Weatherby Magnum is basically a 416 Rigby with a cosmetic belt added.  I do not suggest that anyone load the Rigby up to match the Weatherby, but you can safely approach very nearly the same velocities.

[crow_feather]

If the Weatherby is the Rigby with a belt, why aren't people just buying a Weatherby?  

I believe because it doesn't matter how fast the Rigby moves, just that it's name reminds one of the old safaris, the ivory hunters of yesteryear, the excitement of following a wounded Buff into the brush, the waiting for the lion to show as the beaters draw near...............

C F

[Lawdog]

crow_feather,

Alliant reloading manual:

wght Rigby Rem
300 2590 2890
350 2455 2610
400 2360 2445


Accurate reloading manual:

wght Rigby Rem
400 2337 2449

Nice comparison but the data quoted for the Rigby is for older double rifles and not modern bolt actions.  Factory Remington loads are loaded to near max levels where the factory Rigby loads are around 60%.  When I was in the market for a .416 caliber I compared the Remington, Rigby and Weatherby versions.  The Rigby can be loaded to close to Weatherby levels at pressure levels still less than the Remington.  I am not saying that the .416 Remington isn't a good cartridge because it is.  But Remington dropped it from their line and I don't believe it will last long in the Winchester offerings either.  And when/if Winchester drops it that will spell the last for the Remington offering.  Lawdog
 

[crow_feather]

Lawdog,
I posted data from the new powder reloading manuals. I usually advise people not to exceed that data.  It really doesn't matter if the 416's can go hotter than the data of the Rigby or Rem Mag that is current.  They will do anything that any responsible sportsman would ever want as they are.  The Rigby just takes more powder to do it.

Remington has moved quite a few calibers to their custom shop rifles.  At the present time, they no longer offer the 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, or 416 Rem Mag in their standard line.  I do not think all these rifle calibers are headed over the hill.  It appears that Remington is pushing their 375 Rem Ultra Mag and others that ARE headed over the hill on their standard rifle line.

It also appears that the big boomers can only be had in  Remington custom rifles this year.

C F

[Lawdog]

crow_feather,

Still the factory loads for the .416 Rigby are so they will be safe in older double and bolt action rifles.  Like factory loads for the .45-70 are safe for old Springfield rifles.  You take loads from a specialty company that loads for the .45-70 in a Marlin or Ruger No. 1 and they are not safe in the older rifles.  It's an unfair comparison.  Even the reloading manuals won’t post loads for the .416 Rigby that are not safe in the older rifles.

And the only reason Remington dropped the .338 Win. Mag. and the .375 H&H from their line is to try to boost the sales of their .338 & .375 RUM line.  The .338 Win. Mag. and .375 H&H were out selling the RUM counterparts.  Bad move on the part of Remington as people will just go to another company instead of paying the bundle that Remington wants for their custom rifles.  They would have been money and customers ahead if they had just let the RUM’s die.  Lawdog
 

[crow_feather]

Remington makes more money selling amunition than rifles.  They have to push the RUM's in order to sell the ammunition, or loose money.  

I think that Remington believes those who want a large bore Remington rifle and are willing to pay the high prices for the ammo will also pay a higher price for the rifle.  I think that the large bore Remington is like the pre-64 Winchester.  Too expensive to make for the ammount sold at the magnum 700 rifle price.

[while99]

From the "for what it's worth" department, I owned two different Model 70 Winchesters in .375 H&H over the years and was never able to get the kind of accuracy that I thought those rifles should deliver.  One was a push-feed rifle and one was one of the currently-manufactured rifles with the controlled-round feed.  I sold both of them and bought a used Model 70 Super Express in .416 Remington Magnum.  I like it very much but have not fired any full-power loads from it.  I mostly use a 350 Speer Mag Tip with 72.5 grains of IMR 4895 which gives about 2,450 fps on my Pro-Tach chronograph.  I have not hunted with this rifle but that should be a very useful big game load out to 200 yards or so.
I doubt that the .416 will ever replace the .375 H&H any more than the .280 will replace the .270.  The .375 just had too much of a head start.  The .416 has the advantage when hunting in African countries where the minimum bore size is .40 caliber.  
If you want to read a very good article about using the .416 Remington Magnum on Alaskan Brown Bear, find a copy of the Handloader's Digest, Twelfth Edition.  Ray Ordorica, in conjuction with guide Andy Runyon, gives a very good synopsis of the various .416s and loads for big bears.  It also explains why Andy, after using the .375 for several years, went to using a big, fast .40 caliber.

[crow_feather]

You might try the 300 grain Barnes X bullet with 81 grains of RL15 Powder.  It shoots sub MOA and should be somewhere around 2600 fps.  I also shoot a Super Express.  

The 300 Mags put a big dent in the 30-06,  I think the 416's will hurt, maybe not replace, but put a hurt in the 375's.

C F

[Patriot_1776]

If the Weatherby is the Rigby with a belt, why aren't people just buying a Weatherby?

If I may make one point on this question, the Weatherbys are probably more expensive, as well as the rifles for it.  Usually, if one can get the same performance curve, without throwing in their wallet with the sub-total, they'll likely go for that instead.  Just a thought, but how much more over a 458 Win Mag does one need?   Patriot

[Ramrod]

You might try the 300 grain Barnes X bullet with 81 grains of RL15 Powder.  It shoots sub MOA and should be somewhere around 2600 fps.
C F

Why shoot a 300 grain bullet in the .416? The .375 can fire the same weight at the same velocity as this load. Plus the .375 bullet has a better ballistic coefficient AND higher sectional density. Which one do you think will give better trajectory and penetration?
I can shoot 110 grain bullets in my .30-06, or 235 grainers in my .375, but if I were doing that, I probably should have bought smaller guns to begin with.
I don't think the .416 will put much of a dent in .375 sales.
My  :money:

[crow_feather]

Ramrod,
Good question.  It's cause I can shoot anything the 375 can shoot, and as far as the 375 can shoot, but if I want to, I can go up to 89 grains of powder and put the bullet out at 2900 fps.  375 can't do that

When something that wants to hurt me comes along, I can drop in 400 grain rounds and defend myself with power.  375 can't do that

Where I hunt, a 338 is considered a large bore and more than necessary.  This discussion between friends is about the same as discussing the merrits of a Porsche vs. Ferrari in New York traffic.  Neither one will ever do what it was built to do, at least for me cause I will never see Africa.  

Have a great New Year Ramrod, may that 375 shoot cloverleafs.  


C F

[Ramrod]

Porsche vs. Ferrari ? Naw, a .375 H&H is more like a vintage roadster, it's got style and class!
Happy New Year to you too crow-feather, and to everyone else here!

[jro45]

With my 416 Rem. I shoot 400 gr bullets. I've tried those 300 gr Barnes bullets in my 416 and and they fill my barrel with copper so I don't shoot Barnes any more in any of my guns. I don't like to spend the better part of a day cleaning my rifle.