Author Topic: New rifle accuracy (Read 1552 times)

daddywpb · « **on:** November 06, 2004, 11:55:20 PM »

Went to the range yesterday with a new Ruger 77 MK2 30/06. I don't really like shooting from a bench, so I sat on the ground and used the sling and a Stoney Point bipod. I got groups about 1 1/2" at 50 yards, and about 3" at 100 yards after I got the scope settled in. I'm planning to replace the trigger with a Timney as soon as I can, and we had a cold front move through yesterday that made it pretty windy. Anyway, when I was pulling the targets down and getting ready to leave, one of the other shooters made a comment about my groups being horrible, and I should see what I could do about fixing the rifle. I was feeling good about the day, and confident in the rifle, but that kind of burst my bubble. My question is - would you have felt comfortable with that kind of accuracy? What kind of accuracy do you expect from a hunting rifle from a realistic shooting position - not locked down in sandbags from a bench? I don't usually carry sandbags to my stand. Just looking for some opinions. Thanks.
Steve

Steelhead · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2004, 02:16:24 AM »

I wouldn't sweat it. Look at it this way, no bullet was more than 1 1/2" from your point of aim at 100 yards. I don't know how far you tend to shoot at deer, but if a 3" group is considered GREAT at 300 yards from the bench for killing deer at that distance then I submit that 3" from a sitting position is fine for shooting deer at 100 yards.

I would practice they way you do most of your shooting when hunting.

Take a target out, and from your sitting position fire 1 round from a cold slightly fouled barrel (since that is probably the barrels condition when hunting) and make sure it goes where you want. Pull the target and go home. Repeat, daily if you can, on the same target. Then you will have a good gauge of what that first shot is doing. That group after a week or two should give you good idea of you and your rifle. After all we are more concerned with that 1st shot, aren't we?

jvs · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2004, 02:17:51 AM »

Shooting from the bench with a brand new rifle isn't a bad thing, if you use it to see how accurate the rifle is within controlled conditions. However, after you know that, then if something goes wrong on a shot, it isn't the gun.

I would go back and use the bench and see if it tightens up a little. If it does, then you will know that sitting with a bipod is not in your best interest when you have to shoot between long distance obstacles. Also, 165 gr bullets may be better, sometimes 150 gr work good. It all depends. Every Rifle is slightly different. You did not say which bullet you shot.

A new trigger may help if trigger pull is the problem. It may not be. You can have a gunsmith lighten the pull for the same cost as buying a new trigger, probably less.

Everything I have heard in the last few years says most Manufacturers accept 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inch groups or so as Factory Standards. Some new rifles shoot alot better than that, while some will slightly exceed it.

I would not be happy with a 1 1/2 inch group at 50 yards or 3 inches at 100 where I hunt. But in the open, 3 inches means Dead.

bigjeepman · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2004, 02:27:13 AM »

daddywbp ....

It is my guess that this other shooter has 10 different rifles that all shoot .500" groups that came from the factory shooting great. He probably hasn't had to do anything to any of them and they all shoot great groups with 3 different kinds of factory ammo.

I'm trying to be a little funny here. I have heard those kind of comments around the gunshops and they irk me at times. For your first day with a brand new rifle, it is my opinion you didn't do too bad at all. First of all, the rifle is new to you and maybe the caliber is also. You were probably shooting ammo you bought off the shelf not knowing what the rifle will like best. Secondly, you were shooting "hunting" style and I sure wish I would do that more to let us better understand how our rifles/handguns will perform in the field.

I have a Ruger (same model as yours) in .243 and it is the most accurate firearm I have. I put my gunsmith put in a Timney trigger, re-crown the barrel, and lap the lugs for a grand total of $110. Nothing else has been done and it shoots great groups with bullets from 60 to 80 grains. This all took time, effort, and patience.

Good luck to you and enjoy your new rifle ....

josebd · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2004, 02:30:53 AM »

my howa 1500 .243 out of the box with reloads well under half inch group at 100 yards.

Buckfever · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2004, 02:41:47 AM »

Daddy in the Western part of South Dakota , in fact in Hill City there is a bar called Chute Roosters. Being from MN I asked what it meant and they said " it was the guy who never rode in a rodeo but could tell you how to do it while sitting on the livestock chute's." I think you might have run into a Chute Rooster! Buckfever

Dave in WV · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2004, 03:06:30 AM »

I met a fellow several years ago with a MK II 300 mag that was getting the same size groups. He hadn't checked the action screws on his rifle. After we tightened the screws by the instructions in the owner's manual he got 1.5" groups at 100 yards. He was very pleased.

Willyp · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2004, 07:16:28 AM »

I shoot from the bench alot. If it weren't for trees,I couldn't hit deer at 50 yards?

??Wind,new gun,sling and on your butt,you did well!!!!! Get your bubble back.

Lawdog · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2004, 07:27:27 AM »

daddywpb,

Quote

I got groups about 1 1/2" at 50 yards, and about 3" at 100 yards after I got the scope settled in.

Without doing the bench work how do you know that the groups were the fault of your shooting, the rifle or the scope? It all boils down to having confidence in your equipment.

Quote

My question is - would you have felt comfortable with that kind of accuracy? What kind of accuracy do you expect from a hunting rifle from a realistic shooting position - not locked down in sandbags from a bench? I don't usually carry sandbags to my stand. Just looking for some opinions. Thanks.
Steve

1.] would you have felt comfortable with that kind of accuracy? NO

2.] What kind of accuracy do you expect from a hunting rifle from a realistic shooting position - not locked down in sandbags from a bench? All depends on the shooting position but using a bipod from a solid sitting position I wouldn't be happy with anything over 1 3/4 inches. Lawdog

jhm · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2004, 08:53:39 AM »

Sir : You did vary well shotting from the position you stated, dont let anyone tell you that they can do as well shooting off of shooting sticks as they can from a bench, if that was the case you would see it being done at all of the shooting matches, the closes you will get to shooting from a bench is the prone position and I havent seen anyone in a long time practice that position, now that you are satisfied with your ability and the rifles, go to a bench and see just how much you can improve, it will come to you that you did vary well.

JIM

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2004, 09:22:46 AM »

daddywpb you have received a lot of good advice.

Under the conditions that you were shooting I would be pleased (and actually wish I could do that good all the time). Now if you were shooting from a Bench off of a Bench Rest Bypod or Front Rest, with sandbags under the butt, yes I would be disappointed with the size groups you quoted.

The way I look at it is this, at the distance I can keep all of my shots inside of a pie plate from field shooting positions is what I consider my maximum range. This is what I would refer to as practicle accuracy, in that it is the combination of the shooters skils as well as the Rifle and Load.

The Pie Plate is basically the size of the kill zone on the average Whitetail. Your 3" groups from field shooting positions at 100 yards is about 1/3 the size of a pie plate, and as such you should do fine.

The other thing to consider is that this Rifle, Scope and Ammo is a new aquaitance of yours. Once you become more accustomed with each other you will gain the confidence you need.

Good luck with the new Rifle.

SD Handgunner

Zachary · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2004, 05:20:53 PM »

Quote from: daddywpb

Went to the range yesterday with a new Ruger 77 MK2 30/06. I don't really like shooting from a bench, so I sat on the ground and used the sling and a Stoney Point bipod. I got groups about 1 1/2" at 50 yards, and about 3" at 100 yards after I got the scope settled in. I'm planning to replace the trigger with a Timney as soon as I can, and we had a cold front move through yesterday that made it pretty windy. Anyway, when I was pulling the targets down and getting ready to leave, one of the other shooters made a comment about my groups being horrible, and I should see what I could do about fixing the rifle. I was feeling good about the day, and confident in the rifle, but that kind of burst my bubble. My question is - would you have felt comfortable with that kind of accuracy? What kind of accuracy do you expect from a hunting rifle from a realistic shooting position - not locked down in sandbags from a bench? I don't usually carry sandbags to my stand. Just looking for some opinions. Thanks.
Steve

Is it just me or are 3" groups at 100 yards just unacceptable? Granted, if one aims in the middle section of a deer just to the right of the shoulder area, then 3" at 100 yards will work, but then again virtually all of my factory rifles shoot 1" at 100 yards and that's with little difficulty finding a good factory load to do it with.

Am I just lucky? I don't know. I own over 20 bolt-action rifles and I've shot about 15 of them so far and never have I had 3 shot groups bigger than 1" or so at 100 yards. Personally, I would just use a 3" group gun as walking stick before I used it as a shooting weapon.

Zachary

Steelhead · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2004, 06:53:54 PM »

Quote

Is it just me or are 3" groups at 100 yards just unacceptable? Granted, if one aims in the middle section of a deer just to the right of the shoulder area, then 3" at 100 yards will work, but then again virtually all of my factory rifles shoot 1" at 100 yards and that's with little difficulty finding a good factory load to do it with

No just you............. So would you consider shooting a deer at 300 yards? What kind of groups do you get at 300 Zach??? Or how about at 200? If a 3" group is good enough for shooting deer at 300 yards (which is a damn good group at 300 from a BENCH) then wouldn't a 3" group be good enough for shooting a deer at 100 yards, especially when said group ISN'T from a bench.

Of course not all of us shot deer from tripods located around feeders....

Coal River Rat · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2004, 07:50:04 PM »

I assume you have already completed your bench work, sighting in, finding best load ect. If I'm correct in this assumption, IMHO your doing just fine. There's alot to be said for real world/hunting situation type practice, keep at it. I've yet to see a new Ruger bolt gun that would not benefit from a new trigger or trigger job. You are on the right track there. If your "friend " from the range has anything else to say about your 3" group @ 100yds, invite him or anyone else for that matter to have a seat beside you and leave ther bench for a while and educate you on real world shooting techniques. I think you'll find if he can do better, it's not by much, and I would be surprized at that. I like to shoot those small groups as much as anyone, but as far as I'm concerned, real world practice is where it's at when you're preparing for an upcoming hunt. Keep practicing, those groups will shrink in size even more I'll bet, and it won't be the gun so much as you improving your shooting skills which are solid already. Gotta respect that! Good Shooting! P.S. Ruger bolt guns are good shooters on the average and with a new trigger I'm sure the rifle is fully MOA capable or better with the right loads off a bench, heck it probably is right now.

Coal River Rat · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2004, 08:06:15 PM »

Zachary- You've never had a 3 shot group larger than 1 inch or so? Out of the 15 rifles? With factory ammo? Never found a load that just wouldn't shoot (2"+) in any of your 15 guns? Come on. IMO You can fool 1/2 the people 1/2 the time and those are the ones you should concentrate on. I'm not buyin it!

daddywpb · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2004, 10:38:52 PM »

In this area, shots at game past 100 yards or so would be rare. There is also a 200 yard range at the place where I was shooting, but I stopped at the firing line, looked at the targets, and said "yeah, right". I just wouldn't take a shot at an animal from that distance. I simply can't hold steady enough to be sure of an ethical kill, so I passed on by to the 100 yard range. I'd like to fool around with it some day, but as far as shooting at game at that distance, I'll pass, but that's just me. Like Clint Eastwood said, "A man's got to know his limitations". Good thing I don't live out west, huh? I see them on TV shooting pronghorn, etc. from 300 yards, and even further, and I'm always impressed. Oh yeah, my wife is going to buy me a Timney trigger for Christmas. I love that woman! Thanks for all the comments!
Steve

jvs · « **Reply #16 on:** November 08, 2004, 12:23:28 AM »

Quote from: daddywpb

In this area, shots at game past 100 yards or so would be rare. There is also a 200 yard range at the place where I was shooting, but I stopped at the firing line, looked at the targets, and said "yeah, right". I just wouldn't take a shot at an animal from that distance. I simply can't hold steady enough to be sure of an ethical kill, so I passed on by to the 100 yard range. I'd like to fool around with it some day, but as far as shooting at game at that distance, I'll pass, but that's just me. Like Clint Eastwood said, "A man's got to know his limitations". Good thing I don't live out west, huh? I see them on TV shooting pronghorn, etc. from 300 yards, and even further, and I'm always impressed. Oh yeah, my wife is going to buy me a Timney trigger for Christmas. I love that woman! Thanks for all the comments!
Steve

I have a question for you.

Since you think a 200 yard shot is a little far, are you trying to say that you shot a 3 inch group, sitting and with a bipod, at 100 yards with open sights?

Your original post has nothing about a scope.

If you are trying to say you used open sights, I wouldn't change anything on the rifle. A new trigger might be ok, but with open sights you did just fine.

daddywpb · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:02:25 AM »

I didn't say that 200 yards is too far to shoot, I just meant that it's too far for ME to shoot - at least at an animal. The scope I'm using is a 4X12X40 Nikon Monarch. At the 100 yard range, I had it set on 12X.

jvs · « **Reply #18 on:** November 08, 2004, 06:25:13 AM »

Nikon is my choice of scopes too.

Your new trigger will probably help but I'd be using the bench to begin with as to rule out a bunch of other things.

Multi-position shooting is a good habit to get into. More people should do it.

mountainview · « **Reply #19 on:** November 08, 2004, 11:40:16 AM »

D-wpb,

I might add that trying some different ammo could make a difference in shrinking the size of the groups you are getting. Experiment with some different loads/brands and you will likely notice that not all loads give the same accuracy, some will be better while others are worse in your firearm. Ideally working from a bench would be the way to test ammo but once you settle on a load, it makes sense to practice from the position you'd be likely using in the woods.

Safe shooting.

DWARREN123 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 11, 2004, 06:23:09 AM »

It's what you are comfortable with, what anyone else thinks really doesn't matter. Are you happy with the groups that rifle shoots from the position you choose? If so then it's a good group!

Donaldo · « **Reply #21 on:** November 11, 2004, 04:14:36 PM »

daddywpb
If you were setting on your butt and shooting and got those kind of groups you did good. Don't let a bunch of bench shooters tell you different. Shooting from a bench and shooting setting on your butt is two different worlds. You are doing OK. Your are to be congratulated for recognizing your limits. Too many people think just because they have a XXX magnum they can kill a deer at 300 or 400 or what ever yards. Yeh the rifle may be able to do that but can they do that. There is always the loose nut behind the bolt that you have to consider. Just keep practicing and you will get better.

daddywpb · « **Reply #22 on:** November 11, 2004, 11:02:53 PM »

The range I go to won't be open to the public again untill the first weekend in December, so I will take it out again then. In the mean time, I can get the cases I emptied reloaded again. Just ordered a box of speer bullets from Midway. I enjoy the reloading aspect very much also - it gives me some peace and quiet time out in the shed. :grin: Thanks for the support.
Steve

deerhunter10 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2004, 10:08:14 PM »

Sorry Zach I'm not buying it, out of all those guns some of those groups are going to open up to at least 2 plus inches, and I guess you've never had a bad day at the range? I'm with Steve, I can shoot approx 1 inch group from the bench with sand bags and about a 2.5 inch group with just some form of rest under the stock, be it my arm, or a block, etc. I guess that works ok, as I was fortunate enough to take 2 deer last year at 300 yards out West here, confidence is everthing, and I don't think your doing much for Steve's. Lets face it, a good hunter who respects the animal he or she is shooting, is going to do everthing they can to find a solid rest, before shooting 200 to 300 yards, myself I like to find one before I pull the trigger at all. RC

bchannell · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2004, 04:49:18 AM »

I'd say from the position you were shooting, those are pretty good groups. They may not tell the story of what the rifle is capable of, but they give a good indication of what the rifle and shooter are capable of. I would bet that many riflemen that consider themselves good shots would be right in that same category in that type of shooting.
Don't sweat is and enjoy your new Ruger, they're fine guns.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #25 on:** November 25, 2004, 04:51:40 AM »

Quote from: daddywpb

...My question is - would you have felt comfortable with that kind of accuracy? What kind of accuracy do you expect from a hunting rifle from a realistic shooting position - not locked down in sandbags from a bench? I don't usually carry sandbags to my stand....

To the first question regarding 1-1/2" at 50 yards, no, I would not have been happy. But I wouldn't take a new rifle to the range and use field positions the first time out, either, not if I was interested in checking accuracy potential rather than just playing. Nor would I take a new Ruger out without first floating the barrel, which might increase group size a tad but will eliminate stringing caused by the wood stock heating up and pushing the barrel.

Checking accuracy potential of a rifle needs to be done with other variables minimized -- for me that means sandbags, a good solid bench and a range protected from the wind (or a relatively windless day). It also means working up new handloads, although sometimes I'll try a box of factory ammo when I first get a gun.

All of the Rugers I have played with are capable of much better accuracy than you got, but if you are happy with the results that's what counts.

lilabner · « **Reply #26 on:** November 25, 2004, 01:52:15 PM »

You know, it really does make good sense to lock in a new gun on sandbags to find out what it is capable of as it comes out of the box. That would eliminate many of the variables that can affect accuracy. A bench rest will reduce the effect of a poor trigger, for one thing.( Fix the trigger -you can't shoot up to your potential with a bad one.) You did not say whether you shot different types of ammunition but rifles generally will prefer one type over others. Sometimes it takes a while to find the best one. If there is an accuracy issue, it is a good idea to check the guard screws to ensure they are not loose. If a scope is involved, the mount screws and ring screws should be checked to be sure all is secure there. If the barrel is supposed to be free floated, run a business card between the barrel and stock to see if there is wood to metal contact.
I shoot over shooting sticks and while they allow a steadier hold than the usual field shooting positions, accuracy with them is not comparable to a bench rest. Your shooting was good enough to put a bullet in a buck's vital area at 300 yards. But, I would want to know what that rifle is capable of and bench shooting is the only way to find out.

jim21 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 28, 2006, 02:38:08 PM »

About 3/4 quarter of my rifles shoot with-in 1" in the target,if its worse I
blam the shells or I will get rid of the gun.

Brithunter · « **Reply #28 on:** April 28, 2006, 11:40:59 PM »

Hi All,

Well it's different strokes for different folks :lol: however I cannot see myself being happy with that sort of accuracy also I would be very unhappy with not being able to shoot until December :shock: if you cannot shoot until December how on earth do you practice? and without practice how can you expect to shoot better or indeed find out what your new rifle likes?

As for Zacharys' comment about none of his rifle shootign over 1" 3 shot groups. Well either he is very, very, lucky or simply dreaming.

Now let me tell of one experience with a very accurate rifle, using a handload with a 125 Grn Spitzer bullet a bolt action 30-30 I have will put 3 shots virtually touching at 100 yards from a steady position, however using factory winchester 150 Grn loadings and it does not matter if it's HP or Silver Tip this rifle shoots them using a 6x scope into groups of 2-3 1/2". It simply does not like the Winchester ammo :? but for short range hunting it will work. I shot a Dog Fox (RED) with the Winchester HP cartridges at about 60 yards and it did the job as it would have done if that was a Deer.

In fact it's so inconsistant with the factory stuff that I can get the same accuracy using the flip up iron rear-sight which is handy to know for back up situations :wink: The fact is that if I had not tried the handloads I would have been fairly disappointed with this rifle. Testing and practice at a range or other shooting place is required to improve ones own performance and to find out just what loads/cartridges your rifle likes. Now to that end I am working with a rifle just now. Unusally for the make the factory bedding was awful to say the least. Suspecting this as the culprit for the poor groups I played with it until I figured out which way it wanted to go then had the bedding retified. This was not as easy as it sounds as this rifle likes a fore end pressure point and hates a free floated barrel which is fine by me as I am not convinced that free floating is always the way to go :roll: . But finding a gunsmith who would listen to what I wanted was not easy, nearly everyone said oh free float :roll: but I had tried that and the groups opened up even more :shock: Now I am testing ammo to see what it likes. The Gunsmith who bedded it shot several groups of the 1" area, some a little under and some slightly over, the rifle has a light weight barrel and is chambered for the 7.92mm (8x57 Mauser) cartridge and testing was done with 196 grn cartridges by Privi Partisen. I am also testing S&B 196 SPCE and some handloads hoping that the new bedding will improve upon the 1 3/4" groups I got when playing with it myself. Oh the groups (5 shots) with a free floated barrel were 6-8" from a bench at 100 yards :shock: which was double how it came out of the box.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #29 on:** April 29, 2006, 03:28:45 AM »

Quote

As for Zacharys' comment about none of his rifle shootign over 1" 3 shot groups. Well either he is very, very, lucky or simply dreaming

Luck has nothing to do with 1" group's and in many cases, neither does dreaming. Most people with rifles like that won't accept less. They shoot a great deal, probally handload and work on the mechanics of good shooting, ie breath control, body position, trigger conrtol, ect.

I like that kind of comitment to shooting. Get that kind of guy within reasonable range of an animal and the conclussion is usually "quick and humane". I say that as that type of guy usually understands how to use what he has also, he's the guy that makes whatever he's using, "ole death and distruction".

One of the things he realizes is that no matter his own ability, it's of little value without the knowledge of his rifle that he learns at the bench. And his ability is a reflection of his rifles ability.

You can learn to shoot well from field positions but they'll never tell you what your rifle is capabile of. You can have the best shooting form in the world but it's useless if the rifle doesn't shoot and that can only be found on a solid bench using bags and good shooting form.

The bottom line in this discussion is that the author doesn't really know if it's his rifle or his self! In either case, he's got a rifle and ammo that will work well at about ,,,,,well,,,,,,, who really knows, we don't know what either is really capabile of.

I too don't own a rifle that won't put three good handloads into 1" at 100 yds. I've had some, but not for long!