Commercial Swaging Equipment

[carpediem]

Hello All:

It's been a while since I logged in, but I am back and with a really good question.

I cast lead bullets commercially and am looking to expand my product line.  Recently a friend of mine who swages bullets commercially contacted me wanting to sell his swaging equipment.  I got to thinking that I should start offering swaged bullets as well as cast bullets.

My friends equipment is a swager with a hydraulic pump and foot pedal attached. He says he can do 2000 bullets per month.

If I am going to go into commercial swaging, I am going to need a much higher production number.  We have two gun ranges in town that go through Montana Gold bullets like crazy.

Now the question:  I have been on the websites of Corbin and Walnut Hill.  They both offer commercial equipment.  What kind of a swaging press would be good for commercial swaging and what kind of volume would I be able to produce?

Any recommendations or suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem :-)

[talon]

You may want to rethink your marketing strategy: production rates are important, but in competing with the VERY big bullet producers you should probably look at producing speciality bullets. You said you are in business, so undoubtedly you've a good understanding of the outdoor sports market. But, suggest you review the words at   www.corbins.com/tips.htm to get a quick insight to the swaged bullet market. Corbin Company makes the vast majority of the (specific) bullet swaging equipment in the world and his brother (of the Walnut Hill brand) makes superior equipment, too. There are VERY few other producers that can match their products. It wouldn't hurt to read all of the information on their web sites before you go any further in your swaging plans.

[carpediem]

Hello Talon:

I should have been a touch more specific.  The equipment my friend is selling is a corbin set-up.

I figured that this equipment would be good for what I have in mind.  If it works out I was going to go for the big corbin commercial equipment.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

[Donna]

Hello Carpediem and glad to have you back,

I had a Walnut Hill hand press and I can produce 2000 bullets a week if I really set my heart on it and have a reason too. But as Talon is mentioning it is very unlikely that you can compete with the big dogs out there. So, why try? The big dogs have an Achilles’ heel. They cannot do low volume specialty bullets, anything below 50 or even 100 thousand per year is below their capability. They need to run off at less 1 million or more at a time or the profit margin is not there. This opens up a lot of territory for the small time bullet maker in the type of bullets or the bullet size that can bring in a tidy profit. A profit by supplying a product that no one else is supplying because it is not profitable on a large-scale production. So, any of the equipment that is supplied by Dave or Richard Corbin will more than likely meet your needs. It just comes down to how much work do you want to put into it or should I say how much work do you want to take out of it. Hydraulics can have a lot of advantages but watch the fingers. On my hand press my right hand got a little ahead of my left hand and a finger suffered, I hate to think if it was a hydraulic rig. Food for thought. Have fun.

Donna

[carpediem]

Hello Donna:

I have been paying close attention to what you have had to say over the past year.  Now it's time for me to ask questions.

With companies like Remington, Nosler, Federal, Monatna Gold and the like producing just about every kind of bullet under the sun, where does the niche manufacturing fit in?

Are you swaging commercially in this niche market?

As I am casting bullets commercially, casting cores would be very simple for me.  Are there any other expenses other than the copper jackets?

I look forward to your response.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

[Donna]

One market is in odd calibers. I cannot name any of the odd calibers but once in a while they come along on this forum. The other is a type of bullet in certain caliber. This I can name, a good long-range target bullet in 6.5 mm, I herd that Sierra dropped their 6.5 mm that lots of people liked for metal silhouette shooting. Also there is a need for a good thick jacket flat point for the .45-70 for hunting, every one else is making hollow points that do not work well on thick skin bears. The realm of lightweight hyper velocity bullets, ultra long range bullets. These last two need to have an extra edge, like powder aluminum for the extra lightweight bullets while keeping the length or powered tungsten for the ultra long range bullets, mind you that the density of the core material needs to be taken into account although the lightweight bullets is for short range but you’ll need to factor in the accuracy into this. So it is not just making a bullet, you have to do your homework unless it’s just for a conventional bullet for an odd caliber or type. I make a 300-grain truncated bullet with a wall thickness of .035 for hunting bears this peeked one persons interest but I do not make for resale. The key is to use your imagination to make this market place come alive.

Donna

[talon]

One big consideration is delivery costs on bullets. In the last few years this has become significant, and signs are that it will be more so in the years ahead. If you have a large market for 'vanilla' bullets close by, you may be able to price compete with more distant sellers. To be even more competitive you would have to have a near by source for bulk or scrap lead and the ability to make cores by casting or making your own wire. [If you had any of the Corbin or Walnut Hill hydrolic  presses (less the Hydro-mite), you could make your own lead wire] To answer your question about production speed using one of the powered swage presses: It takes 3 operations to make a 'common' bullet. If you put a lead nose on it, there's one more operation; a RBT takes one more also. Once you set the press up and get into rhythm, you can accomplish about 12 operations a minute with a Corbin CSP-1. For those that have slide rules, that's an average of a bullet every 15 seconds, or 240 'common ' bullets an hour. .014" walled pistol jackets will run about 5.5 cents each unless you order several thousand at a time, and lead about 32 cents/lb. Swaging bullets with a CSP-1 in long production runs is VERY boring, but as Donna said, you must keep alert or loose a finger (or two). You have to consider the tedium, challenge, and physical risk of the task as well as the profit potential to resolve whether or not to start up in this business. Short runs of niche bullets seems to be much less boring, but it takes more set-up time, however the gross profit per bullet is much greater, too. It has to be to cover all the different tooling you'll need to get into this mode.

[carpediem]

Hello and thank you for the info you have provided:

A gentleman I know is wanting to get out of the bullet swaging business.  We had a long conversation about swaging and I now have a few more questions.

My friend has a CSP 2 and a CHP 1 as well as a complete die system for swaging 308 caliber bullets.  The dies allow for manufacturing flat base and rebated boat tails as well as round nose ,oft point and hollow point.  Other equipment includes a Corbin copper tube cutter, abunch of copper tubing, approximately 1000 J4 jackets, various amounts of lube, acid, lanolin, lead wire and a canalure machine, if I want it.

One thing to note, two of the 308 swaging dies are cracked in half.  I think they are the boat tail forming die and the nose forming die.  I assume that these dies can be replaced for a minimal charge.

My friend has offered to sell me his equipment for $15,000.00 Canadain.

I am not particularly interested in swaging 308.  Our market caters more to the .223 target shooters, as well as 303 british, 8mm mauser, 45-70; and then there is the pistol claibers.

I am thinking it would be more economical to buy a Walnut Hill bench master and dies rquired.   I would also be looking at the base guard system offerd by Corbin.

As for core manufacturing, I own two bullet masters and can convert some of my old bullet molds to core molds.  

I was told producing jackets is labour intensive and was told to buy J4 jackets.  What are your thoughts on this?  How much of the cost per bullet is the jacket?

Your thoughts on the above ramblings would be greatly appreciated.  I look forward to your response.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

[talon]

Your friend may be asking to much for his items, considering RCE's (Walnut Hill) price offerings. I saw a nice looking CHP-1 sell on FeeBay last week for $1800 US. A prior owned CSP-II can usually be had for about $650. Besides, if the only die set was the .308, all you really have to benefit your Plan from your friend are his presses: Because of that, I second your observation to go the Bench Master route. [ It really takes some doing to break an 'H' die as you can swage solid copper in the .308 size ones] It's also best to buy your pistol and rifle jackets rather than make them, especially if you are going into 'mass production'. I buy my jackets from Butch Hairfield, a relatively new source for all sizes of jackets, and his prices are very competitive. ( I swage about 24 calibers of bullets from .17 to .458, and some are of those 'obsolete' 19th century ones that some folks have no other source for. I also produce about 14 different  diameters of lead wire.)While I've used J-4's product, I don't have any idea what they charge now. You will find several jacket makers advertising on the Corbin Pages. RCE can make base guard punchs for you, and if you are going to get LSWC die sets from there, be sure to order one... if you can only afford one internal punch per set, get the Base Guard one for sure. Then, buy your BGs from Corbin Co. I'm running a batch of .357s with BGs right now, and it saves lubbing and waffeling. Don't even think about making those little BGs themselves as that is a full effort in itself. Lastly, it takes about 6-14 months to get your dies once you order them, and because of this and the dollar cost you must take care to order exactly what you need, or may need. By the way, making a lead only bullet with base guard only takes one operation and you can probably make 8 or 9 bullets a minute if the cycle rate on the RCE Bench Master is up to it. While that is slower than casting with a 6-holer, you don't have to lub them, and with a twist of the punch, you can change weights in a tic.

[carpediem]

Thanks for the info:

Just as I thought; my friend is charging way too much for what he has.

I appreciate your frank response.  When venturing forth in to a new line, it's always nice to hear from people who have experience.

Do you know what the speed is on the bench master.

Thanks for your advice.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

[talon]

I do not have any of RCE's presses, only their dies. Suggest you email Mr Richard Corbin after reading his web pages on the Hydra Swage and Bench Master presses and ask for his leaflet on the Bench Master, and at the same time ask him just how many operations per minute the press can do when making 1" long .223 jacketed bullets. By the way, Richard was the master machinist at Corbin Company until about 4 years ago, and knows "everything" there is to know about bullet swaging. He was and is instrumental in this activity.

[carpediem]

Thanks Talon:

I appreciate the info you have passed on to me.

I will give Richard a call and find out what he has to say.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem