Educate me

[jvs]

Educate me.

Having been born and raised in Pennsylvania, where the longest shot for Whitetails may be in the 50 to 75 yard distance, it is sometimes hard for me to understand why somebody really needs those bigger Mags and Ultra-Mags for hunting.  A long shot in Pa would be 100 to 150 yards.  much less than 1% would be longer than that, which is why I stick to the calibers I presently have in my cabinet.  Not a Magnum among them.  More than once I could have held a knife in my teeth and jumped them from a tree. (yeah right)

I have traveled thru Indiana and Illinois, where I know things start to flatten out considerably and any shot would tend to be a long one.   I also know alot of people from around here that go out to Wyoming to hunt Mule Deer and Antalope, some up to British Columbia for Bear, Moose, Elk and such, so I know that the intended target and terrain dictates the need for some larger and more powerful calibers.  There are some guys around here that will use a 7mm Mag on a Whitetail at under 100 yards, and believe me, there is nothing uglier or wasteful than a shoulder shot from a 7mm Mag at these distances.  They get the Neck Roast and the Rear half, the rest is hamburger.

My questions are:
What do you hunt regularly?
What distance is normal where you hunt?
And what caliber do you use and why?

[mountainview]

.5 group - I grew up across the mountains on the western side of your state and used a 25-06 with success for some time on whitetail. Why? Because I liked the caliber not because I needed a flat shooting caliber for 50 yards shots. Hunting is not done with 100% utilitarian practicality in mind and many people like to demonstrate some facets of their tastes and individuality in the field and on the range. One way is in the caliber and rifle selected. You yourself are likely an example, how many guns do you own and can you rationally argue this against the point that all anyone actually needs is a 12 gauge, 30-06, and maybe a 22 rimfire?

Another person can not really educate you on the larger topic, it is more like a religion where an individual must seek out information with an open mind and convince themselves to change or accept a new viewpoint.

Safe shooting.

[Graybeard]

My questions are:
What do you hunt regularly?
What distance is normal where you hunt?
And what caliber do you use and why?

I certainly share your general distain of the big magnums. Bought a .300 Win. Mag once long ago on a whim not for the caliber but because I liked the rifle. Both a box of 180s and 150s with it and didn't even finish off all of them before deciding that was more recoil than I cared for. Traded it for a .270 just like it. (a limited editionR700 ADL configuration Mtn. Rifle). I ended up giving the .270 to my oldest son as he kept it borrowed all season long every year anyway.

Up in PA is really the home of the true long range deer killers. There are groups up there who set up benches on one hillside and shoot at deer on opposite ridges in farm country. They take shots out to and perhaps beyond 1000 yards. To me this is NOT hunting but target shooting at game animals and is not something to be proud of. But that's just my opinion.

More to the point of your questions. What I mostly hunt is white tail deer, hogs and exotics.

Most of my shots come from 25 to 100 yards with those under 50 yards being more common than those over. I've taken a couple of Bama white tails at what I'd guess to be about 200 yards and yeah in both it was woods but just happened that a clear lane was available and I worked the bullet to him. Pretty much all the rest of my deer kills have come under the 125 yard range. Same for hogs and exotics. I've generally managed to avoid the over 100 yard shots with most.

I use a wide variety of guns and chamberings really. My all time favorite rifle round is the 7-08. I'm now on my third in about 30 years of using the round and so far while used by me, my oldest son and my wife neither of those three rifles has ever missed a shot on game or ever required a follow up shot to finish one off. That's a lot of game and a heck of a record. I've used the .30-06 and .270 on a lot of game also. Those three rounds have accounted for the majority of my rifle kills.

I also use handguns a lot. With them the .44 Magnum from revolvers and the 7-30 from a Contender have taken the most game. But I've used several others also.

Those five mentioned tho have taken the majority of the big game I've taken. The several others I've used have generally taken only from one to three head each.

[jvs]

Another person can not really educate you on the larger topic, it is more like a religion where an individual must seek out information with an open mind and convince themselves to change or accept a new viewpoint. Safe shooting.

Assuming that you are correct that I can not use logic to try and understand another persons position about why they decide to use a different firearm than I use in the surroundings I grew up with, I guess I may have wasted my time.

However, I am not totally ignorant as to why logic would apply to bigger and badder calibers, depending on the terrain.  Ridge to ridge hunting happens here, but not very often.

Since I am, like you, a product of my past experiences, I am surely open to others thoughts and decision making abilities.

I didn't ask to start a debate or an arguement.  I asked so I can understand the logic.  I would never pretend to being able to tell people what to spend their money on.

Perhaps I can be taught.............just not by you.

[Questor]

For "big" game, I normally hunt deer-sized game, but have ambitions to hunt something bigger soon.

I'm limited to shots under 200 yards most time because I can't practice at longer distances. If I'm travelling to a place where I can get some serious 300 yard practice in, then I'll extend that range to 300 yards. Beyond that, it's just too chancy for me. In my home state, most shots are at shotgun distance.

I use 44 magnum, 6.5JDJ in handguns, and I own a .270 rifle. There is no reason for me to own a magnum, except one of larger bullet diameter in the case of bigger game. I don't see a need for 300 magnums because the .270 will do anything I want on deer-sized game, and for bigger stuff I'd use a medium bore or big bore rifle instead of, say, a 300 mag. I like my calibers because they're proven in the field and because they are light enough in recoil to encourage me to practice a lot.

[Buckfever]

I made the change about 3 years ago from a custom 300 win.  Mag.  McMillian stock 700 Rem action stainless, bedded trigger set to 3 lbs and a German  brake, Leuopold Vari-X III, 3-10.  It is light, very accurate and doesn't kick much more than a 243.  It sits in the gun cabinet and probable will stay there..  Most of my shots were under 100yards and the bullet either penciled through, ( TBBC)  or blew the poor deer to pieces 180 Nosler Partition.  Now I use either a 6.5-55 or a 308.  Just as dead better tool for my hunting.  However I have hunted in WY and MT and out there flat shooting Magnums can be a great asset if you can shoot them.  So different place different requirement.  Hey it just came to me maybe I need to go on another out west adventure!!!   Buckfever

[longwinters]

I hunt whitetail in the Upper Pen. of Michigan and have hunted antelope in Wyoming.  I had a 7mm but after a couple of years, even though I really liked the rifle, decided to trade it for another gun because I just really had no need for this big of a caliber.  The rifles I have kept for my purposes are a 243 (varmint and target) 308 and 280.  By far the 280 is, in my mind, a most excellent caliber.  Low recoil, good bullet range (for a reloader) excellent accuracy.  I see no weaknesses in this caliber.  It would be inbetween the 270 and the 30-06 in performance, velocity and bullet weight.  It could be because its barrel length is about 1.5" longer than my same manufacture/model 308 but the recoil is less with the 280.  And to tell you the truth, It kind of rings my bell to shoot a caliber that is not common in the area I live in.

Long

[huntsman]

Here in TX I hunt hogs and whitetail deer. The shots are anywhere from 10 to 250 yards depending on stand location. I own a .270 Rem 700 ADL, two 8x57 K98 mausers, and two 6.5x55 Swedish mausers for hunting game. All three calibers can kill effectively in the 250 yard range. I have hung up the old faithful .270 this year in favor of the 6.5x55 because it is just one sweet-shooting, deadly, and accurate little caliber. The .270 is fine and has killed many a deer, but is way more gun than I need for whitetails and hogs. Same with standard loadings of the 8x57.

It is a pretty rare thing for a hunter to take a decent shot on game at over 300 yards in any terrain. Bigger game like elk and moose offer a better chance, but try holding on the vitals of a whitetail at that distance. It is not easy even from a sturdy rest. I would bet that 90% of all whitetail hunters could not tell you what the ACTUAL bullet drop of their chosen round is out of their favorite rifle at 300 yards, let alone what the wind drift is at any given wind speed. Most have never shot at a target that far away.

The big magnums have a place in hunting large and deadly game. IMO that's the only game they should be used to take. The "magnumitis" in hunting right now is a techno-fad. People are infatuated with the paper numbers and the macho feeling of touching off a miniature cannon. Makes about as much sense to hunt a deer with a magnum as it does to rabbit hunt with a .243. Yea, it works, but what a waste.

I have heard some argue that they need deer to drop in their tracks because tracking is difficult if not impossible in thick brush, swamps, etc. Shooting accurately with rapid-expansion bullets in a high-velocity caliber (above 2800 fps generally) will make most medium game drop in their tracks, even with something as light as a .243.

I have caught the opposite of the magnum fever; I call it minimum-itis. In a round-about series of events, I have begun to experiment with light rounds and calibers. I have worked up light loads for my 6.5x55 and 8x57 for my young daughters just learning to hunt, and I am finding it fun to come up with a minimal round that is still effective on whitetails and hogs. A lot of my research is proving that it takes a lot less power to effectively kill a deer than I ever thought. Shooting a round that hardly kicks and barks quietly that still spanks the target is a hoot!

If someone gave me a magnum rifle I would sell it and get something useful instead.

[savageT]

huntsman,
You've taken my thoughts and expressed them exactly as I would have  put them on paper!  Just can't find one thing I would do differently!  I just wish my Swede felt as good in my hands as my old lever action m99 in .300 Savage.

JimT

[Zachary]

My questions are:
What do you hunt regularly?
What distance is normal where you hunt?
And what caliber do you use and why?

Regularly hunt - Whitetail Deer and hogs.

Normal Distance - I had a post up about a year or two ago ago that involved a similar topic.  It was what was the longest shot, but I still stated something like 90% of all shots are under 200 yards, with about 100 yards as the norm.  In Texas where I hunt, we use corn feeders out of tower blinds, and the shots are generally 100 yards on the nose.  The deer and hogs don't always go to the feeders - at least not when they go off, because they move dependant upon weather and the moon phase.  If it's hot and a bright moon, your feeder can spew corn from 7am to 7pm and nothing will come to it  at that time.  Anyway, bottom line is that most of my shots are about 100 yards.

Caliber - well, you're asking someone who has more guns in more calibers than the average hunter.  I currently have the following cartridges:

.243
.25-06
.260
6.5x55 Swede
.264 Win Mag
.270 Win
.270 WSM
7mm-08 (x3)
7mm Rem Mag (x2)
7mm Ultra Mag
.308 (x2)
.30-06
.300 Win Mag (x2)
.300 WSM (x2)
.338 Win Mag
.375 H&H Mag

Which one do I use the most?  Hard to say.  I try to alternate from one rifle to the other.  Would you believe it that I  still own NIB rifles that I still haven't even mounted a scope on yet?  I guess those will be the next ones that I will use - IF I get a chance to go hunting this year.

[TCShooter]

My questions are:
What do you hunt regularly?
What distance is normal where you hunt?
And what caliber do you use and why?

I hunt whitetail deer, coyote, woodchuck.
Average distance would be 100 yds or less with most shots taken under 50 yds., but longer shots are not unlikely.  
Caliber I use mostly is 7mm-08.  Why because I bought it and it just became my favorite.  Also have a 308, a 223, a few shot guns, a muzzle loader, a couple .22's and a couple non hunting handguns.

how many guns do you own and can you rationally argue this against the point that all anyone actually needs is a 12 gauge, 30-06, and maybe a 22 rimfire?

Now your starting to sound like my wife!   :-D

[tbmaker]

Been hunting whitetail for 27 yrs and counting.
Shot them with,
.243
.257 Roberts
25-06
6.5x55
7mm-08
7x57
7mm STW
30-06
45-70.
They all did their job when I did mine. Any shoulder shot is going to be messy. I still have most of these calibers in the cabinet.
Current favs are my Savage stainless in 7 STW and a Marlin in 45-70.
My current deer stand is on the north end of a field, the other end is 400 yds. away. Most of my deer were harvested under 150 yds but 3 were just over 300 yds, just in the last 2 seasons.
There is nothing wrong with magnums, if you can shoot them well.
I have the 7 STW for specific reasons, I carry the 45-70 around when off the main stand.
I really like my 257 Rob. for general shooting, deer, coyotes etc. And my boys will start their hunting careers with it.
If I had to choose one, currently it would be my 45-70.
I'm going to try and get one this year with my Ruger 45 colt, Black Hawk.
The 7STW will still be in the stand to cover all the bases.
Hope this helps alittle.

[Ramrod]

Regularly hunt - Whitetail Deer and hogs.
In Texas where I hunt, we use corn feeders out of tower blinds, and the shots are generally 100 yards on the nose.

Um, err, I'm looking for a polite way to say it, but I'm not having any success, so I'll just spit it out. What you are describing is as about as difficult as shooting cows in a meadow. It's not hunting, and using a bunch of different guns on tame deer does not make you an experienced hunter.
Sorry, but some of us know the difference between hunting and shooting.

And as for half_inch_group, no need to educate you! :grin:

[Coal River Rat]

My favorite rifle is a 308 bolt action with a 6 power scope. I have shot quite a few Whitetails with various calibers and pretty much decided on the 308 as my "go to" gun for the style of hunting that I like to do. A very long shot would be around 250 yds, but most of the time if you were lucky enough to see a deer that far away, you probably don't have a good shot to start out with. Kinda thick in most of the areas I hunt in. I don't have anything against magnums or anyone that wants to use one, although I'm not found of being on the bench beside one of the super-mags with a muzzle brake at the range.(That'll get your attention, quick!) I think the most important factor is whatever you shoot, practice, shoot it accurately and with good judgement, take high percentage shots and have respect for the animal you hunt. If you like magnums, more power to you, it's your shoulder and your hearing, have at it.

[jvs]

Regularly hunt - Whitetail Deer and hogs.
In Texas where I hunt, we use corn feeders out of tower blinds, and the shots are generally 100 yards on the nose.

Um, err, I'm looking for a polite way to say it, but I'm not having any success, so I'll just spit it out. What you are describing is as about as difficult as shooting cows in a meadow. It's not hunting, and using a bunch of different guns on tame deer does not make you an experienced hunter.
Sorry, but some of us know the difference between hunting and shooting.

And as for half_inch_group, no need to educate you! :grin:

Ramrod,

Call hunting what it really is.......

Gorilla Warfare.   An American tradition.  Invented by Americans in 1776.

Whether it is like Zach does it or like you do it, it all comes down to the same thing.   You are a Sniper looking for an opportunity.   It doesn't matter if you are in a tower or posted along side a tree on the ground.

[Lawdog]

half_inch_group,

My questions are:
What do you hunt regularly?
What distance is normal where you hunt?
And what caliber do you use and why?

1.]  Favorite critter to hunt is Black Bears.  Deer come in second.  Wild Boar is third.

2.]  Shots around where we live can range from point blank to 500(or more) yards.  Example is the two Mule Deer bucks I took this year.  One was shot at 101 yards and the other was 381 yards.(so said my new range finder)  Our new son in-law took a nice 4x4 Blacktail at 447 yards.

3.]  Favorite deer cartridge is my .25-06 unless I have an idea that I may run across a bear then my .300 Weatherby(or one of my other magnums) is what I carry.

It all boils down to what you hunt and where as to what cartridge is suitable.  Are magnums really needed, NO.  But they do give you a nice edge.  Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  Lawdog
 

[Zachary]

Regularly hunt - Whitetail Deer and hogs.
In Texas where I hunt, we use corn feeders out of tower blinds, and the shots are generally 100 yards on the nose.

Um, err, I'm looking for a polite way to say it, but I'm not having any success, so I'll just spit it out. What you are describing is as about as difficult as shooting cows in a meadow. It's not hunting, and using a bunch of different guns on tame deer does not make you an experienced hunter.
Sorry, but some of us know the difference between hunting and shooting.

And as for half_inch_group, no need to educate you! :grin:

Ramrod,

Call hunting what it really is.......

Gorilla Warfare.   An American tradition.  Invented by Americans in 1776.

Whether it is like Zach does it or like you do it, it all comes down to the same thing.   You are a Sniper looking for an opportunity.   It doesn't matter if you are in a tower or posted along side a tree on the ground.

I agree with what both of you say.  Keep in mind, however, that deer do not always come to the feeders like some people think, and thus is not as easy as it sounds, and I believe that I mentioned that in my earlier post.  Last year nothing came to the feeders and I walked around the huge unfenced ranch and shot my deer and hogs that way.  Still, like ramrod says, hunting is hunting, and what is mostly traditional in part of the country may not be traditional, or even accepted, in other parts.  I know that in Alabama you can't even hunt over corn or other bait, but you can hunt a food plot.  Isn't that essentially the same?  And what about rattling antlers?  During the rut they come in a whole lot closer than any corn feeder I've seen, so that form of hunting is easier than feeding under a feeder.

I don't mind what strategy hunters use when they hunt, as long as they are happy and put food on their table.

Zachary

[Zachary]

Regularly hunt - Whitetail Deer and hogs.
In Texas where I hunt, we use corn feeders out of tower blinds, and the shots are generally 100 yards on the nose.

Um, err, I'm looking for a polite way to say it, but I'm not having any success, so I'll just spit it out. What you are describing is as about as difficult as shooting cows in a meadow. It's not hunting, and using a bunch of different guns on tame deer does not make you an experienced hunter.
Sorry, but some of us know the difference between hunting and shooting.

And as for half_inch_group, no need to educate you! :grin:

Ramrod,

Call hunting what it really is.......

Gorilla Warfare.   An American tradition.  Invented by Americans in 1776.

Whether it is like Zach does it or like you do it, it all comes down to the same thing.   You are a Sniper looking for an opportunity.   It doesn't matter if you are in a tower or posted along side a tree on the ground.

I agree with what both of you say.  Keep in mind, however, that deer do not always come to the feeders like some people think, and thus is not as easy as it sounds, and I believe that I mentioned that in my earlier post.  Last year nothing came to the feeders and I walked around the huge unfenced ranch and shot my deer and hogs that way.  Still, like ramrod says, hunting is hunting, and what is mostly traditional in part of the country may not be traditional, or even accepted, in other parts.  I know that in Alabama you can't even hunt over corn or other bait, but you can hunt a food plot.  Isn't that essentially the same?  And what about rattling antlers?  During the rut they come in a whole lot closer than any corn feeder I've seen, so that form of hunting is easier than feeding under a feeder.  

As far as being an experienced hunter, I believe that I am because I can adapt to any technique that is necessary to tag my deer.  Like I said, when the deer didn't go to the feeders, I relied on my experience and took many things into consideration, the wind speed and direction, barometric pressure, moon phase, temperature, terrain, glassing areas with binos, food sources, signs of deer droppings, tracks, rubs, trails, and bedding areas, rattling antlers, buck and doe calls and scents, etc, and a little bit of lady luck.  And that's how I tagged my deer and hogs.   Would anyone consider that to be the signs of a hunter who is not experienced?  And if I would go back to shooting out of a tower blind, does that mean that I become less experienced?

I don't mind what strategy hunters use when they hunt, as long as they are happy and put food on their table.  :grin:

Zachary

[gunnut69]

Well here I go!  I like the magnums.  I like the non magnums also..  Dang it I like most guns..That's why I'm usually broke!!!  I started with a 243 and hunted the last couple of years with a 7mmRemMag, a 300 WinMag, and a 264 WinMag.  This year I'll likely use(have used a bit) a 6.5x55 in a featherweight,..  I love the rifle and the variety..  The damage a bullet does is more often the result of a bullet that's used beyond its intended velocity ranges...  Still anything that hits a deers shoulder at closer ranges is going to ruin a bunch of meat.  Fall 2002 I used a 300 mag and 200 Nosler partitions.  I killed a nice fat doe at about 125 yards are so in the woods..  base of neck and out the flank.. very little meat loss.  There was little bloodshot and burger.. but the bullet came out and if the spine had been missed, tracking would have been easy..  I've killed deer with probably 20 calibers perhaps 30.  The best deer caliber is a fun thing to talk about but is irrelevant.  Use what you will, use it well, and be safe. This year I may even use the 300 mag Ruger No1V.  I bought it for the investment and because it's a fun gun with beautiful wood.  It shoots just fine though..  I truly wish you all a safe and productive hunt..

[jvs]

Well here I go!  I like the magnums.  I like the non magnums also..  Dang it I like most guns..That's why I'm usually broke!!!  I started with a 243 and hunted the last couple of years with a 7mmRemMag, a 300 WinMag, and a 264 WinMag.  This year I'll likely use(have used a bit) a 6.5x55 in a featherweight,..  I love the rifle and the variety..  The damage a bullet does is more often the result of a bullet that's used beyond its intended velocity ranges...  Still anything that hits a deers shoulder at closer ranges is going to ruin a bunch of meat.  Fall 2002 I used a 300 mag and 200 Nosler partitions.  I killed a nice fat doe at about 125 yards are so in the woods..  base of neck and out the flank.. very little meat loss.  There was little bloodshot and burger.. but the bullet came out and if the spine had been missed, tracking would have been easy..  I've killed deer with probably 20 calibers perhaps 30.  The best deer caliber is a fun thing to talk about but is irrelevant.  Use what you will, use it well, and be safe. This year I may even use the 300 mag Ruger No1V.  I bought it for the investment and because it's a fun gun with beautiful wood.  It shoots just fine though..  I truly wish you all a safe and productive hunt..

Well, if I ever thought I'd have to take a length-wise shot on a deer, I'd be using a Magnum too.  Except for one of my 30-06's, nothing I have would make it length-wise thru a deer at 125 yds, especially if it was from the rear.  I'd have to wait for it to turn broadside, if it ever did.  The 264 mag is an interesting caliber but a little light for brushy conditions.  My most favorite shot is either in the Brisket and out the ribs behind the opposite shoulder or in the ribs and out the opposite brisket.  Both lungs and the heart go right when the transfer of energy is the greatest.  No waste and that shot is plentiful, if you wait for it.

I think my biggest problem with Magnums is that I never shot much of anything over 70 yds.   Actually the slower bullets do much better here.  In most places in Pa you can't see more than 50 yds except at the range.  even in a treestand things don't get alot longer, hence my position on Magnums.  Some people have Magnums here but they never compensate for the extra power by taking a better shot.  Anytime optimum bullet performance with a magnum is realized on a deer at under 150 yds, the results can be ugly without the proper placement.  And if the shot is under 75 yds, the bullet goes thru too fast and hardly any expansion takes place if it doesn't hit bone.  I have seen deer hanging at the butcher shop that were nearly blown in half by 7mm, 300 and 338 mags.  It seems senseless to me because I wasn't taught to blow deer in half.

I think age has something to do with it too.  I can get just as much done at under half the cost.  With few exceptions, those fancy Magnums have a tendency to seperate you from your money when it's shootin' time.

I also realize that if I lived or hunted in the Plain States, where any decent shot starts at 300 yds, I would need a Magnum.   Certainly nothing less than a 30-06 or something comparable or bigger in a mag.  

Except for them Jackalopes.

[jvs]

Zachary wrote, Ramrod wrote, and so on

I just couldn't let this one get over.  Some of us hunters have seen the shows on tv.  You know, the guy is sittin in the lawn chair with his cold lemon aid, behind the camo in the tower.  The feeder is spittin out corn right at the 100yd zero point for his par-ticular 180gr rimfire mag and 4x12x40, or whatever.  And y'all call this hunting?
In many places this is called poaching.  Oh yeah, I forgot, "sometimes the hog doesn't come to the feeder......I actually gotta get outta my chair and go look for that sucker.  
Gawd!

Hunting is what the individual State Law says it is.  No hunting would survive if somehow a morality question from PETA and other organizations would enter the picture.

I don't see much difference between sitting in a tower and sitting in a large fenced-in private property  area, where a fee is paid.   And I have to admit that both of those scenarios seem odd to me, but that doesn't mean I consider it illegal to do so.

So before somebody turns this into a discussion about morality ................

START YOUR OWN THREAD.

[tominboise]

I hunt in Idaho and Montana.

Primary animals are Mule deer, antelope, and elk.

I've mostly used the .270 win and the 7mm Rem Mag,  but am evolving to the .243 & 6.5 X 55.  I use the 7mm Mag with 160 Noslers, or a '06 with 180 Noslers for my elk rifle.

SHots are anywhere from 15 yards to 300+ yards, with most antelope in the 250 range.

[gunnut69]

Well half-inch that 125 yard shot at the doe was in the woods.  It would have been doable with a lighter caliber if the correct bullet had been used.  I suppose I could have waited but these deer were rutting and moving.  They weren't coming closer and were actually moving away..  In one respect you were right.  If I were armed with a traditional 'woods' caliber I might have passed on the shot.  Lack of penetration would have made an exit unlikely and at that range a 30-30 would have made the hit doubtful.  Is the 30-30 not a good caliber? No, but it does limit one.  I assume when you said brisket you meant ribs because the brisket of an animal is the bottom of the chest.  A hit there will not range into the heart..  As to the 264 being too light, well I would again differ.  There are NO brush buster calibers.  To think that a 45-70 will shoot thru the brush better than a 264 or 270 is simply incorrect.  The only way to kill cleanly in the woods is to shoot thru the holes.  Those little passages thru the limbs and tree trunks.  At that a 264 and it's stretched string trajectory is better than a 308.  An old aquaintance of mine uses the 300 H&H for all his hunting.  His justification is the best I've heard.  He said,'my 300 will do anything a 30-30 will and a lot of things it won't'.

[jvs]

Well half-inch that 125 yard shot at the doe was in the woods.  It would have been doable with a lighter caliber if the correct bullet had been used.  I suppose I could have waited but these deer were rutting and moving.  They weren't coming closer and were actually moving away..  In one respect you were right.  If I were armed with a traditional 'woods' caliber I might have passed on the shot.  Lack of penetration would have made an exit unlikely and at that range a 30-30 would have made the hit doubtful.  Is the 30-30 not a good caliber? No, but it does limit one.  I assume when you said brisket you meant ribs because the brisket of an animal is the bottom of the chest.  A hit there will not range into the heart..  As to the 264 being too light, well I would again differ.  There are NO brush buster calibers.  To think that a 45-70 will shoot thru the brush better than a 264 or 270 is simply incorrect.  The only way to kill cleanly in the woods is to shoot thru the holes.  Those little passages thru the limbs and tree trunks.  At that a 264 and it's stretched string trajectory is better than a 308.  An old aquaintance of mine uses the 300 H&H for all his hunting.  His justification is the best I've heard.  He said,'my 300 will do anything a 30-30 will and a lot of things it won't'.

To me a 'BrushBuster' is a heavy, slow-moving load that isn't as likely to deflect as quick as a faster and/or lighter load.    Shooting between trees and limbs is a little different than having to shoot  through light brush at an animal that is a short distance behind the brush.  I don't believe that a  243, 260, 264, as examples of lighter bullets.......or some of the Magnums, as examples of the speedier loads, is what would be called for.  Accuracy between trees and limbs is one thing, being able to plow through brush more accurately is completely different.  I shot through heavy briars once, and I'm glad I had the old 35 Rem with the 200 gr along.  With that load I can run the Laurels.  Lets see you do that with a .264 or a 7mm mag.

A 30/30 is probably a good  load if you don't exactly know what you may encounter as far as  distance and growth.  I only ever owned 2 30/30's, and only one was for myself, the other was for a kid who was just starting out.  In this neck of the woods I wouldn't be afraid to suggest that a 30/30 was the first center fire high powered rifle that kids in my generation learned to hunt with.  Something that I believe is falling by the wayside.

Most people could improve their hunting skills by hunting with a 30/30 and trying to see how close they could get, than to buy a super ultra mag and a 6x18x55 scope and shoot from their living room.   But I think it's too much trouble that way.  Probably not enough time bragging or drinking.

It's Human Nature to be lazy I guess.

[Judson]

interesting conversation and I have to through my two cents worth in.
   As a custom rifle builder I build, and own a lot of magnums and other big stuff.    As for a magnum, if the bullet is properly placed then you have not lost any thing you want to eat, pluss they do help to compensate for poor shot placement caused by what ever the reason.    On the other hand fewer shooters can shoot the big guys well and I do not know about you, but I think you will agree that a shooter who can drive tacks with his .243 is worthy of more prase for his shooting then a guy who can miss with his magnum.    The big stuff is great but nothing replaces shot placement, and practice.    
   One big advantage you do have with the big stuff is more shooting options.    By this I mean that if you have a hard quartering shot the little .243 or 30-30 will not give you the penetration to drive a bullet from lets say in front of the hind quarters up into the lungs and out.    (yes I like exit holes)    The big stuff does give you this type of penetration and usually an exit hole.    It is sad that some people buy mags for some macho reason or to make up for lack of shooting skill.    If they spent the cost of that magnum on ammo to practice with they would probably become very impressive shots.    Bottom line, a gut shot deer is a gut shot deer with any cartridge!!!!   Will he go down faster if hit with a magnum?    mabe, but if hit right with a 30-30 the deer will be getting dragged out while the magnum gut shot deer is still being followed.    It is not so much what you shot as how you shot your rifle that really counts!


    As for me, what do I hunt deer with?    .375 H&H,  .366 DGW which is a neck down of the .416 Rigby,  .358 Norma and the .308 Norma, and oh yes my all time favorite the 7X57 Mauser with 175 grain bullets.

[Coyote Hunter]

half_inch_group --


First of all, I've been using a 7mm Mag for over 20 years and haven't had a problem with wasted meat.  A shot behind the shoulders does it every time, with little waste -- even at 100 yards or less.  Higher velocities demand more controlled expansion which generally means a better quality bullet.  A bullet designed for optimal performance at .308 or .30-06 velocities might well act more like a varmint bullet a .300 RUM velocities.  Choose you bullets to match your cartridge.  

Second, I LIKE the magnums, even (and perhaps especially, due to case design) the new Remington Ultra Magnums.  Wish I had the funds for a .300, .338 or .375 in a RUM -- I could always load them down if desired...

Hunting big game in Colorado, the vast majority most of my shots have been under 200 yards.  But you get the occasional shot where the "reach out and touch" of a flat shooting magnum is welcome.

To answer your questions, I hunt elk every year, deer and antelope when I can get a tag, coyotes and prairie dogs year-round.  Next year I hope my 3 preference Points will ensure I get a bear tag.  The longest distance I've taken was on a coyote at just under 500 yards, prairie dogs at 400, elk at 350, antelope and mule deer at 300.

Ruger 7mm Mag for everything at one time or another.  My first and for may years my only centerfire rifle.  Very effective on elk with 160g Speer Grand Slams.

Marlin .45-70 for elk, deer.  Because I can.  More or less limits range to 250 yards, and only that far because I use a range finder.

Marlin .375Win for elk, deer.  Again because I can and I enjoy the rifle.  Limits range like the .45-70.

.257 Roberts for deer come December (first year I've had it), antelope in the future, and coyotes and prairie dogs when I can find them.  Low recoil but +P 115g Barnes TSX loads at 2958fps make it a formidable weapon.

.22.250 for varmints.  Very low recoil and lots of "reach out and touch", especially when shooting 40g Nosler BT's at 4050fps...

[swecology]

.5 inch,

I'm in Az.  For Elk, I'm under-gunned with a .30-06. 400 to 600 yds. are common.   Canyons can be deep and wide.  The flats are open and long.  I have found that I need a longer reach, which is why a 7mm WSM is now in my collection.  

Matt

[Fjold]

I live in California and hunt deer and hogs in state, and elk deer and antelope across the west.  Shots on hogs run from 50 yards to 300 yards, CA deer usually 150 - 250 yards, out of state mulies and elk from 200 - 400 yards and antelope from 300 - 400 yards.  

Most of my CA deer I shot with a 308, when I go for mulies and elk I shoot a 300 Mag and for antelope I now shoot a 7 mag. For hogs I have used my 308 and my 300 Mag but I am switching to a 375 H&H magnum.  Why? because I like to shoot it and it flat knocks the snot out of pigs.   :lol:  

For at least a couple of months before I leave for a hunt I shoot every week at ranges out to 400 yards just for practice.   I like my big magnums and I feel more confident shooting a heavy bullet at the long ranges.  

I used to shoot antelope with my 243 until the time I had a B&C buck standing in the middle of a sage brush flat at 416 yards with no chance of getting closer.  I worried about the 85 grain Nosler partition making it there with the gusty 10 -15 mph wind I had blowing left to right.  I put the crosshairs on that buck a dozen times before I shifted "off hair" and pulled the trigger.  The wind out there was alot worse than I thought and I shot it through the liver. The buck went right down but I wasn't feeling well about taking that shot.  I have a lot more confidence in my 7 mag pushing a 140 grain TSX at 3200 fps than the 85 grain partition starting at 3100 fps that I shot then.

[deerhunter10]

Great topic, I might as well throw my 2 cents in, I switched from my Rem 700 mountain rifle chambered in 30.06 to a Sako 75 s/s in 7mm to give me a little more energy and better ballistics at the longer ranges. I've been extremely pleased since I had shoot about 3 deer at 220 to little over 300 yards. I'm sure a non-magnum cartridge what have been fine, however only one deer ran after being hit, and it ran about 20 yards, the rest dropped. These deer were mule deer in Utah and it's pretty hard to get a shot under 200 yards. I have since bought a .308 for some up coming white tail hunts. In my past experience hunting them I've noticed I really don't need as much gun or the weight and length of the magnum. Plus it's just a good reason to add to my small collection of rifles. I'm sure one gun will probably work on most hunts, but I like to carry a back up, so I give myself a variety.
RC

[Hiwallhunter]

Hi everyone!  This has to be one of the most interesting and challenging topics going! No matter what anyone says -they are right,for their own style of hunting ,that is. I only wish that I had the experience with the number of rifles that some of you gentlemen have acquired over the years. For myself I've had about 38 years of hunting experience and more than one of those has been gameless. I've used 30-30's [3],7mm mags [2],6.5x55 [1& will never sell it!] 30-06 [1,sold it& Kicked My Butt!!] and .338 win mags [2] of which I still have one -a Tikka M695lh which I'll be buried with!
Where I'm from in Northern Ontario we get shooting distances from point blank [6 yds!!] to one 1 moose I shot at 600 yards. I do a lot of hunting for moose in big cuts and that means you may be sitting in an area like I was this October where I had 450 yards one way to approximately 100 yards as the shortest distance. I prefer the .338 - it makes a big hole far out and the moose I've been fortunate enough to harvest have not gone farther than 20-25 yards before expiring.Usually ,in fact in all cases except for one they have been killed with one shot. The exception was the one at 600 when I had to hit it 3 times before it lay down for good& that was with a Sako lh hunter in 30-06 with 180 gr Norma ammunition. If someone can use a "magnum" with confidence and practices  with the rifle then I say there is nothing wrong with it. I do not like seeing someone being "conned" into buying a huge caliber just because he missed with a standard. That tends to make a mediocre hunter into a person permanently afflicted by flinchitis. My first moose was killed with a 6.5x55 Carl Gustaf and that was 240 yrds with a 156 gr. Norma bullet. The moose stood there for some seconds after I'd reloaded and then simply fell down on the spot. Many on this continent will argue that the 6.5 Swede is no moose calibre- those  that have used them know better.
If a hunter lives in Penn. and says his distances for shooting are 25 -100 yards then certainly he does not require the horsepower the magnum calibres give you.But if you live in Ariz. and you shoot at 600 yards then I 'd be leaving my standard cal. at home and use the "proper" tool for the job.Then again ,friends, you can always use something big for something small but not usually the other way around,eh? I'd like to wish all readers a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year-that of course extends to all of our troops American & Canadian in Irag and Afghanistan.