Author Topic: Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle vs. Shotgun  (Read 2207 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ourabmen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle vs. Shotgun
« on: September 30, 2004, 12:15:09 PM »
Hello, and thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.  I have been pulling my hair out  with a case of paralysis by analysis while trying to choose a new rifle for my first elk and moose hunt next year.  

I have read every thread I can on the ballistics of the various rounds, (30-06, 7mmRM, 300 WM, 338 WM,  338-06 etc.), their effective ranges, makes and models, etc.  

One area that I keep getting hung on is felt recoil.  I admit after a bought with my brother in law's .338 WM last yeart , I suffer from big magnumitus, .  Man what a bruiser. But I digress.


I was over at the Chuck Hawk's website reading some of the shot gun info and was surprised to see the recoil numbers he lists: all of the bold face entires I have shot at one time or another.  None of them feel quite as punishing as the 338 WM.

Gauge,    length (oz. shot@MV)   Gun weight (lbs.)   Recoil energy (ft. lbs.)

20 gauge, 2.75" (7/8 at 1200) 6.5 16.1
20 gauge, 2.75" (1 at 1220) 6.5 21.0
20 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1175) 6.5 25.0
20 gauge, 3" (1 1/4 at 1185) 6.5 31.0

12 gauge, 2.75" (1 at 1180) 7.5 17.3
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1200) 7.5 23.0
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/4 at 1330) 7.5 32.0
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/2 at 1260) 7.5 45.0
12 gauge, 3" (1 5/8 at 1280) 7.5 52.0
12 gauge, 3" (1 7/8 at 1210) 8.75 54.0

Now, compare this to some of the recoil calculations from the rifle page:

7mm Rem. Mag. (150 at 3100) 8.5 19.2 12.1
7mm Rem. Mag. (154 at 3000) 9.0 18.4 11.5
7mm Rem. Mag. (160 at 2950) 9.0 18.2 11.4
7mm Rem. Mag. (175 at 2860) 9.0 19.3 11.8

30-06 Spfd. (165 at 2900) 7.5 21.5 13.6
.30-06 Spfd. (165 at 2900) 8.0 20.1 12.7
.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700) 8.0 20.3 12.8
.30-06 Spfd. (220 at 2600) 8.0 26.0 14.5

.300 WSM (180 at 2970) 7.25 27.1 15.5
.300 WSM (180 at 2970) 8.25 23.8 13.6

.300 Win. Mag. (165 at 3110) 8.0 26.2 14.5
.300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960) 8.5 25.9 14.0

.338-06 (200 at 2800) 8.0 23.9 13.9
.338-06 (225 at 2600) 8.0 24.8 14.1
.338-06 (250 at 2500) 9.0 25.5 13.5

.338 Win. Mag. (180 at 3200) 8.5 28.5 14.7
.338 Win. Mag. (200 at 3000) 8.5 31.2 15.4
.338 Win. Mag. (210 at 2940) 8.5 31.1 15.4
.338 Win. Mag. (225 at 2800) 9.0 29.7 14.6
.338 Win. Mag. (250 at 2700) 9.0 33.1 15.4

Is it just me (and it probably is) or do some of these number surprise you.

The 20 Gauge I shoot is a Franchi 48AL, 26", that weighs 5.6 pounds empty. I routinely shoot 2-3/4 1oz 7-1/2 shot for my dove and quail load. According to Chuck's data a 6.5 pound gun will dish out 21 lbs of recoil, my gun is a pound lighter, and will theoretically dish out a pound or two more.

Thats getting close to what the 300 WM and 338-06 dish out, and more than the 7mmRM and 30-06 (all but the 220 grain round).

So what am I saying? Hell even I don't know.  Perhaps it is just that I was surprised as heck at these numbers. If I can spend a day in the field chasing around Mr. Bob White, while going through a couple of boxes of shells, then my case of magnumitus might just be in my head.

Does anyone else expereince this kind of double standard when it comes to recoil?  Is there a rational explanation why shooting a shotgun with standard 2-3/4"  loads impart a different sensation with regards to recoil.  

Thank you for your time and indulgence.  Be safe and have a great hunting season this fall.

Boomer Sooner,

OUrabmen
OUrabmen

Offline Patriot_1776

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2004, 01:21:54 PM »
I am not surprised at all.  If you want my opinion, the reason for the extra recoil in SGs from rifles is this:  The SG lobs a heavier "projectile" if you will than does a rifle.  The rifle gets more power from a lighter projectile in exchange for more poWder and pressure.  The rifle's recoil is more of a steady push, in relation to the steady thrust caused by the "jet effect" of expanding gasses exiting the muzzle and slower burning powders.  The SG on the other hand recoils more suddenly, in my experience, a quick jerk.  That I believe is due to the heavier payload in shot, slugs, etc. and the quicker burning powders used.  The SGs operate at MUCH lower pressures than do rifles, hence their power comes from a heavier payload at a slower velocity, therefore, their reduced range.  Don't get me wrong, a shotgun for close range hunting makes more sense to me than packing a high powered rifle that shoots flatter than the earth curves.  But, that being said, the main reasons simplified are the recoil differs on the principle of: Where does the power come from?  A light projectile going really fast, using higher pressures as a medium for thrust, or a very heavy payload going at a slower rate with less pressure, but with equally powerful results?  Is that a reasonable analysis, or does that sound alittle crazy? :)   Patriot
-Patriot

Offline Buckeye

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2004, 05:22:51 PM »
I wonder what my .375 H&H shooting 300gr.ers, WGT. 71/4 lbs,recoil would measure?  ( It Kicks !!!)     :shock:

Buckeye
45/70 Government
Is the only Government
        I trust !

Offline mitchell

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2067
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2004, 05:47:48 PM »
buckeye tell me how fast your bullet is going and i'll punch the numbers for yuo
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline ourabmen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Man, we need a physicist's!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2004, 05:48:24 PM »
Patriot, that does make sense.  However, when you you turn back the clock to high school phsysic's it really confuses the heck out of me.  

Applying Sir Issac's F=MA, the difference begins to blur.  Wether you push a lower mass object at higher rates of acceleration, or higher mass objects at lower acceleration rates you could end up with similar results regarding felt recoil forces.  This of course focuses on just the interaction between the mass of the projectile and acceleration of the  force acting upon it.

Where and how the mass of the rifle, the shooter, etc come into paly is beyond my neophyte abilities.
 
Damn it Jim, I'm a hunter not a physicist!!!!!!!!!!
OUrabmen

Offline Patriot_1776

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2004, 05:51:18 PM »
Quote
I wonder what my .375 H&H shooting 300gr.ers, WGT. 71/4 lbs,recoil would measure? ( It Kicks !!!)


Please supply your load's approx. velocity, your powder charge, and I can give you a really accurate figure. (complements of "Remington Shoot!" software)  Patriot
-Patriot

Offline Patriot_1776

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2004, 07:14:30 PM »
Quote
Wether you push a lower mass object at higher rates of acceleration, or higher mass objects at lower acceleration rates you could end up with similar results regarding felt recoil forces.


My point that was explained really didn't reflect "mass + acceleration", per se.  Here is a better way to explain it:  Remember, there are approximately 734gr. to an ounce.  When you are launching a 1 7/8oz. payload at 1210 fps, this is what I think:  734grs. per oz. x (round up) 2 oz. = 1468 grs. total.  Take into account, we're talking about 17/8 ounces, so we'll say 1450 grs.  Now, think in these terms:  What would apparently kick more in a gun, a payload of 1450grs. going 1210fps, or say for instance, a 30-06 180gr. load going 2700 fps.  Those are the figures that I take into account FIRST.  

Next, the powders used.  When you combine a faster burning powder, with a heavy payload, that adds to the recoil.  A fast burning powder's gases expand more rapidly than a slower burning rifle powder.  Here too, the rapidly expanding gases have a heavier mass to work against.  Remember Newton's third law I believe:  For every action there is an opposite, and equal, reaction.  Try this, burn 10grs. of Alliant Unique, and try burning 47gr. IMR 4064.  You will see the difference, if you will, of the rate of combustion, hence, the rapidity of gas dispersion.  It has also been proven that a lighter bullet going much faster, can have more terminal ballistics than a heavier bullet going at a slower rate of speed, under certain circumstances.  The rifle powder's characteristics are a more controlled release of gas (and due to the heavier charge, more gas is created.)  Whereas the Unique, or whatever pistol powder that makes excellent target loads for shotguns, will burn much more vigorously (therefore, a given amount of gas expands in a quicker frame of time.)  

I'll go more in-depth to the purpose of a slower burning powder here.  The benefits of a slow burning powder promotes a longer "burn-time" in the barrel, which keeps a longer source of pressure to allow the bullet to continue to accelerate.  Much like a progressive pushing of the gas pedal on a car.  And these characteristics keep the operating pressure reasonable as well.  And because of the slower burning, the recoil is gradual.  This may not belong here, but look at reduced loads for rifles.  They use a faster powder, and they have a min and a max load.  They are tested to the maximum SAAMI pressure standards for certain cartridges using THAT particular powder.

 Now, the quicker burning powder's play into ballistics.  Please forgive my rambling, but this stuff takes alot to explain!!  I have read there are many reasons for their purpose, so I'll make it short and maybe someone can add on to them.  Anyway, the quicker ignition causes more gas to be dispersed in a faster period of time.  Therefore, in a shotgun, the payload is heavy, with a fast burning charge of powder, which means it has a more violent reaction, which is felt by the shooter.  When that happens, the pressure can also run too high if too much powder is used.  See how the magnum pistol cartridges use a "slower" pistol powder than do standard cartridges?  That is because their capacity relative to their powder "needs for magnum status" would promote pressures higher than is safe.  So a slower powder is the cure.  And make sure, as they say, to crimp them good, so they burn more consistently, and cleaner.  Therefore, the reason behind all this sums up to what needs to be done, with how much, what pressure limits are set, and how heavy the payload.  Whew, I'll quit for tonight, and being my knowledge is limited, I may have stated in-accuracies. Remember too, these are just somewhat accurate examples that try to deliver a particular idea to the reasons behind why a SG recoils more than a rifle.  If there are any errors, like every first print in books or whatever, feel free to correct or critique them.  I'll humbly accept them in whatever article they represent.   God bless you all for bearing with me. :D    Patriot
-Patriot

Offline Buckeye

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2004, 07:33:52 AM »
As of now I'm not handloading the .375 H&H, I enjoy shooting it but not enuff to work up any loads,I've been shooting factory PMC @ a advertised  2,650 fps. & ME of 4210 ft.lbs. Thats a 270 grain bullet.

Buckeye
45/70 Government
Is the only Government
        I trust !

Offline Patriot_1776

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
Well, here's what I got...
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2004, 07:54:41 AM »
I punched your supplied info into the recoil calculator, and here is what it said: Using a bullet that is 270gr, with a 7.3lb.(had to round up) rifle, with a ballpark estimate of 75grs. of powder, and 2,650fps approx, the total came to 44.77 ft.lbs. of recoil.  That'll wake up anybody when they shoot that! :)   Patriot
-Patriot

Offline ourabmen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Patriot, Thanks
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2004, 08:31:24 AM »
Patriot, I can't thank you enough for your detailed explanation.  You answered a lot of questions I had not even thought of yet.  Thanks for your time and for sharing your knowledge.

Sincerely,

OUrabmen
OUrabmen

Offline Buckeye

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2004, 10:13:29 AM »
When I was shooting that 375 H&H off the bench the first time it knocked my glasses off !  :shock:  It seems to kick harder than my 45/70 GG loaded heavy ,(405 gr. bullet with 53 gr.s of IMR 3031.)

Thanks for the info.

Buckeye
45/70 Government
Is the only Government
        I trust !

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2004, 10:21:02 AM »
Buckeye,

Quote
I wonder what my .375 H&H shooting 300gr.ers, WGT. 71/4 lbs,recoil would measure? ( It Kicks !!!)


What make and model rifle is that .375 H&H?  And why would anyone want one that weights 7 1/4 lbs.?  Lawdog
 :eek:
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Buckeye

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Male
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2004, 06:38:58 PM »
Its a Mauser-Wernke Model 3000,21.5 in barrel Bell-Carlson(?) syn. stock. beautiful gun,wonderful finish ,glossy black.I like its light wgt. and barrel length, .Its not to uncomfortable shooting off handed,I would post a pic. but for some reason I can't get my pic.s to post,When my cousin re-turns my digital camara I'll e-mail you a pic.,If you don't mind?

Buckeye
45/70 Government
Is the only Government
        I trust !

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2004, 07:20:59 AM »
Buckeye,

You can either e-mail me a picture or post it here by following the directions under the Album sedtion at the top of the page next to Usergroups.  Personally the wife and I like our 9 lb., 14 oz. .375 H&H's(for me I like my .375 Weatherby Magnum even better than the H&H) the way they are.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Check it out!! Recoil comparisons: Rifle
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2004, 11:20:22 AM »
There's a great freeware program called pointblank that you can download from the Web.  Just google it and you'll probably find it quickly. It has a lot of great ballistics calculations in it, like trajectory and wind deflection. It also has recoil calculations. You can just pick your load, match it to your gun, and calculate your recoil. Slick.

Lawdog:
I think that 7 1/4 pound 375 may be either a Browning or a Winchester Classic. Both are about that weight.
Safety first

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
So have you chosen an elk/moose cartridge?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2004, 11:15:32 PM »
I'll offer a comment on guns for moose though I am by no means an expert.  I have no knowledge on elk.

While moose have been taken with everything from a .22 lr to a .460wby, I tend to favor .30 cal or more. A 30-06 or more.  I've shot 3 moose, 1 w a 30-30, 2 with a .300 win mag.  You might want to look at my small sample of 1 comment on 7mm Rmag and a moose my friend shot over in GB's Alaska Hunting thread.  

For Alaska the 7mm Rem seems like a slightly flatter shooting 30-06.  Its used by many to take all sorts of Alaskan game but I like the option of the heavier fatter .308 bullets.

After watching my 2 smallish moose taken with the 300 give considerable thought to the problem before dying, (both lung shot at 100yds or less with 180 gr Noslers) I'd encourage the .338 cal cartridges if you plan to hunt many moose and can stand the punishment.  I'm sure giving it thought but I've sighted in a few .338s and it gives me pause.  Good stock design could go a long way to helping.

 I've been hunting in really thick brush lately and that's where the fatter the bullet the better appeals to me.  The idea of losing an animal really bothers me.

Funny thing, as a dumb 16 yr old I lobbed my 30-30  loaded with a 150 gr Hornady at my first moose at well over 100 yards. Caught it in the back bone and it went down faster than if I'd used a howitzer.  Pure dumb luck.

Last week a friend told me how his large moose soaked up 2 solid chest hits (approx 70yds) from a .338 Win with no indication of a hit until it toppled over after walking 30 yards.  No info on the ammo.  He is a real careful, former Minnesota deer hunter.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA