Single action fouling

[107ch]

Hi,
I have a question for you long time burners of all things black.I was out at the range yesterday and my single actions seemmed to foul pretty quickly.
The cylinders wouldn't spin freely and it became tough to cock the hammer. How many shots are you guys getting before you have to take out the cylinder and wipe the gun down?? I think part of it was the cold weather, but not all. The barrels were fine, with just a reasonable amount of fouling, nothing major. I am shooting a couple of Uberti clones (cabelas Milleniums). Any feedback would be appreciated.
                              Thanks,
                                          Dennis

[ButlerFord45]

Normally a full match with no problem.  I did however have one gun that took two hands one stage, one for the hammer and one to help rotate the cylinder.  I have no idea why it happened. at the end of the stage, I squirted the face and cylinder pin with Ballistol and finished the match.
      It has been my experience that trying to shoot "light" loads with black powder produces more fouling. A full charge of FF or FFF with a heavy bullet and FIRM crimp on a bullet lubed with a good black powder lube burns cleanest.  There is a long time long range BP shooter around here somewhere (I can't remember who) that has coined a term for that,  "ballanced load" and I think that applies here.  A good dose of a heavy weight lube on the cylinder pin is the only other thing I can think of at the moment.

[John Traveler]

I've had my revolvers lock up after little firing on occasion.

The problem was little splinters or shavings of lead bullet material that came off and stuck to the cylinder face and barrel breech face.  It's easy to spot; forcing the cylinder to turn as you cock the gun will show fresh lead smears where the splinters were.

This can happen with smokeless or blackpowder loads, and is more likely to happen with carelessly assembled ammunition. :shock:

[Cuts Crooked]

Howdy pard,

Tell ya what, aside from what these gents have already tol' ya, the other part of keeping revolvers running in matches is simple......LUBE!!!!!

Load a bullet with PLENTY of BP lube. I shoot 75 Remingtons and they are notorious fer binding up with BP. But I don't have problems due to the slug I load in them. I load Lymans .45 Maxi Ball in .45 Colt with a soft mix of 50/50 lube and can shoot an entire match without stopping to clean! Ever look at a Maxi Ball? That sucker has HUGE lube grooves, looks like there's almost more lube than slug there! :eek: And when they take off they spew that lube all over the cylinder face, forcing cone, and cylinder pin...Keeping things slick and running! So try loading a multi lube groove bullet with a good soft lube fer starters. If that don't loosen things up try building yer loads with a grease cookie sandwich over the powder charge and under the slug, anything to get lots of lube in there.

Next up: That Millenium...those are dandy ain't they!?! :grin:  However they are sometimes built pretty tight! Kind of surprizing in a low end gun, but they are well built with fairly tight tolorences. Sometimes, too tight! Have a smith check the cylinder gap in them and see if they could use a little judicious stoning to open up that gap a bit and give fouling some room to escape

And finally, cool weather! Yes chilly temps seem to give more problems with BP. The solution is again..LUBE! When it gets colder a lot good over the counter BP lubes start failing to do thier job, they get a little too stiff. I use 50/50 and add an extra squirt of olive oil to the mixture when I know I'm going to be shooting in cool weather.

Keep trying, you'll get it right!

[Old Cane]

Will a steeper andgle on the forcing cone help the buildup or is it more reliant on the gap? And does anyone know why 11 degrees is the preferred degree? Isn't stock about 5 degrees?

[John Traveler]

Old Cane;

Revolver forcing cones are traditionally quite short and shallow.  That 5 or 11 degree cone angle developed out of consideration for the traditional cast or swaged SOFT lead bullets used in revolvers since cap 'n ball days.

With the development of copper jacketed bullets, and magnum velocities, manufacturers have played with forcing cone angles in hopes of balancing performance (accuracy, safety, barrel life, etc) with ease of manufacture (minimize extra machining or gaging steps).

S&W for example, had a massive recall of .44 Magnum revolvers in the '70's because of numerous complaints of lead and copper jacket "spitting" from it's M29 revolvers.  Yep, you guessed it: The fix was to recut the barrel forcing cones to reduce the jacket spitting.  Accuracy with lead bullets was reduced too, but that was better than product liability lawsuits.

The forcing cones on cheaply made barrels seem to be cut with counter-sinks.  Properly-cutforcing cones are done with a piloted cutter shaped much like the neck/shoulder of a chambering reamer.
 :shock:

[Old Cane]

Thanks, John.

[John Traveler]

Oh, yeah:

Most gunsmiths asknowledge an optimal barrel-to-cylinder gap as being 0.004 to 0.008 thousandths of an inch, with 0.006 being ideal.

The barrel-to-cylinder gaps in blackpowder days was much LARGER than is customary for modern cartridge revolvers.
  :shock:

[Old Cane]

Thanks again. That answers most everything. Should modern guns have the gap enlarged to what was used in the old days if used exclusively for BP or was it excessive even then? If you do bring the gap up to .008 or so is it a good idea to open the forcing cone as well? Looks like the two would need to work together.

[107ch]

Hi,
Thanks for all of the response. I have a question, If I use a grease cookie, I assume I would have to put a wax paper? wad above and below the cookie. And unlike BPCR these bullets are hard cast, so I was compressing the load as I seated the bullet. If I do this with a grease cookie won't all of that stuff just squirt out all over the place as I seat the bullet??
                                Dennis

[ButlerFord45]

Dennis, I tried using a grease cookie in a pistol cartridge one time.  It was 357 cases and I was trying to get all the powder in them I could .  With the bullets I was using, I just didn't have enough lube for the rifle, so I started using cookies.  I had no problem with them at all, untill it got hot.  As the day got longer and the temp started rising I could tell that my lube was starting to migrate.  They were starting to go poof instead of bang and on the last stage I had four that refused to fire.  The rifle was a Rossi '92, and was too much trouble to clean in comparison.  I quit using cookies for that reason.  I still shoot black in 357, just not the rifle.
There is a way to do this without any problems but the way I know is to compress the powder before seating the bullet.
I guess that didn't help much.

[Cuts Crooked]

I use a card wad punched out of milk carton material for this job and have never had my grease cookie migrate into my powder charge past this stuff. And yes, you'll have to put a wad between the cookie and the slug too, otherwise it will stick to the base and act like a vane. That's why I call it a "grease cookie sandwich".

[107ch]

Do you compress the powder first?? or do it with the bullet and the sandwich in place??
                                Dennis

[Cuts Crooked]

Nope, I don't compress first. I let the "column" do that as I seat the slug. The load I'm putting in my "38-22" is 20 grains of 3f, a card wad, a grease cookie betwixt 1/8th and 1/16th, a wax paper wad, and top the whole thing off with a 158 gr semi wadcutter hollow point from my Lee mold.