Author Topic: BAD OUTFITTER DONT GO (Read 6618 times)

cam69conv · « **on:** September 28, 2004, 11:09:15 AM »

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:34 AM Post subject: Canned Hunt Update

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Some people were having trouble viewing the photos I took on the hunt that I claim was canned but that the outfitter and the professional hunter that promoted the hunt claimed was fair chase. I have reduced the resolution of the photos to make them easier to load and added detail to the story at the following link.
http://www.donahue.tv/Hobbies/Hunting.html
BTW, on Monday I have a scheduled conference call with investigators from the Manitoba Conservation Department (their equivalent department to Fish & Game)

Please click the above link and read the whole story..You guys will be shocked and HOPEFULLY DISGUSTED at the way this place operates!!!
To anyone with influence in the government lets all band together to put a stop to thier Buisness

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2004, 12:55:49 PM »

Site cannot be viewed. Just will not load. All I get is cannot be displayed. I suggest if you really want folks to see and read you need to put it on a server that can handle the load. That one obviously cannot.

I'm assuming this is not an exotics ranch but a hunt for native game even if on a high fence game farm type operation? More folks might see it on my Guides and Oufitters review Forum. Or it can be here and there both.

GBO can host the images if that's the problem and the text can be copied and pasted here. If you really want folks to read it you're going to have to get it all onto a site that is viewable.

cam69conv · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2004, 01:12:33 PM »

Hmmmmm It clicks for me Bill on this one
Give it another shot

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** September 28, 2004, 01:20:46 PM »

Still a no go. You probably have it in cache. Bet if you dump all temporary internet files to include off line files it won't then.

I am on a high speed satellite connection and have tried it several times. It will not load.

cam69conv · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2004, 01:36:45 PM »

Bill,
All the pics are embedded within the post..No seperate URLs in the properties...Guess I cant get it goin then..Oh well I tried

pinduck · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2004, 01:45:20 PM »

It loaded on my CPU with a very slow load and I am on cable. I agree that is the most disgusting method of harvesting I have ever seen. I would not dignify it by calling it any kind of hunt.

cam69conv · « **Reply #6 on:** September 28, 2004, 01:50:14 PM »

Bill It must be your comp then,,,Please disregard my last PM and leave it up...Guys it will load slow because it is big but please take the time and let it load up...It will be worth it to you I promise

kevin.303 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:26:19 PM »

when and where in manitoba was this ??!! wait let me guess, bison hunt near gypsumville? to bad you americans ahve to hunt with a registered guide. i konw a dozen spots here where you have a good shot at a trophy animals and no other hunters for miles.

cam69conv · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:29:43 PM »

lol Thats just a canadian law to rob us of more money..Granted there are some that would NEED a guide to keep from gettin lost in th wilderness but sheesh give me a break...3 grand for someone to walk with me?? Damn canadian government

cam69conv · « **Reply #9 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:31:48 PM »

Oh and Kevin,
Did you click the link and find the message interesting?? Just plain old robbery IMHO...And did the link work ok for you??

kevin.303 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:34:40 PM »

no actually it's because we have had some stupid americans come up here and do some very stupid things. flinging lead at a sound in the bushes if you can't see it. a few horses have been shot and the hunter say's " daa, i thought it was moose" it's shod you idiot!! of course not all americans are like this. just a few idiots spoiling it for everybody else. i've often thoughtr of getting my guideing license just so i can lead you guys around the bush. wouldn't have a high price either.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:38:49 PM »

just saw your second post and tried it worked for me. disgusting.. that was definatly a canned hunt. sorry you had such a bad experiance here. come back this winter and go icefishing with me instead!! this is the second or third time i've heard bad things about Bear Valley Outfitters.

the only way to hunt free range elk in manitoba is to be resident of the province and draw a much sought after tag in a lottery. no such laws against shooting farmraised animals.

cam69conv · « **Reply #12 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:39:29 PM »

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOO Buzz me up when ya do...Id love to come back for some carabou...Moose would be nice but way outta my affordable price range...Dernit its the only north american big game I havnt had the oportunity to hunt to :evil:

kevin.303 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 28, 2004, 06:51:20 PM »

just took a closer look at your pics. what time of year was this? that bucks still in velvet. haven't read the whole article yet, but i will tomorrow. one of hunting dreams is to hunt buffalo with a .45-120 sharps, but not like that, never like that. i'm impressed you went to the effort to bring back all the meat. most guys just fly up here and take home a few cuts and the trophy.

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** September 28, 2004, 07:13:16 PM »

Cam69conv, do you actually KNOW the person who wrote that or did you just see it somewhere and pick up on it? Reason I ask is a know a Bill Donahue. Haven't spoken with him in a good while and was just wondering what the possiblity might be.

It finally opened for me tonight late. Guess the server load was just too heavy earlier today. The entire post appeared to have been set up in MS Word and copied intact into the post.

For what it's worth I personally believe just about all of the hunting shows on TV are filmed under very similar conditions and the hosts know well there is nothing fair chase about them. I too have seen Keith Warren at that place and the ad and while I didn't figure I'd ever be able to afford the cost I did book mark the site just in case my ship came in and I could afford it. Guess I won't be needing that book mark anymore.

If we can assume all that is written is truthful then clearly the folks running it and everyone involved in helping get folks up there are all crooks of the worst order. Can't speak to whether it is all true but clearly the photos were taken in a far less than fair chase situation. Of that there can be no doubt.

I must say that whoever the pair who stared in this story were they weren't the best shots in the country. Anyone who shoots that many in the neck (actually from the photo it appears throat not neck) and doesn't drop the game needs to learn anatomy or shoot for the chest.

Clearly a bad deal and I'll avoid it for sure and as I said did have it in the back of my mind as a future possibilty if the money were to become available.

markc · « **Reply #15 on:** September 29, 2004, 05:35:25 AM »

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy young ek,bear,deer etc.. raise them in your own pen and shoot them? Just kidding. I bet there are plenty of well to do business types who have no problem at all with a shoot like that. To me, I would be some kinda ticked off to have spent that money and tr3aveled that far just to shoot some pets in a pen. GB, yeah I thought the same thing on the whitetail pic. The throat is where that guy shot the deer. No wonder it continued to run!

I would continue to flood Keith Warrens web site and telephone until he answered up! Wonder if there has been any other magazines or programs that have looked into this?

I Might have missed it, but if there is an organization that registers trophey animals in Canada, like or the same as B&C, or Pope & Young, I would check and see if there are animals from this outfitter listed and ask for an investigation. That certainly doesn't qualify as fair chase according to B&C.
markc

Tom · « **Reply #16 on:** September 29, 2004, 08:54:42 AM »

I think Donahue made some bad choices. He should have known more of what his choices were and made other choices. Its easy to say in hindsight. He paid the guy, he chose to hunt those places.

They shot an elk 5 times in the neck with a 30-30. They give a link to the humane society in Canada. Its like its an anti-hunting web page.

I think Bill Donahue's thinking is a little off. Look at the bear valley outfitter web page. It makes no claims like he claims. He's blaming a TV show for where he spent $9000 to hunt. Can't the guy take a little responsibility for his choices, good or bad, we all live with our choices.

He should have left and sued them if they made fraudulent claims. He almost didn't do the bear hunt and it was a regular bear hunt. Its sad he didn't choose what he expected, but I don't see any claims like he is talking about at the outfitter web page.

Others have enjoyed the heck out of that outfitter. I saw a review posted at another sight.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 29, 2004, 10:26:14 AM »

hmm. funny. i didn't realize that it wasn't cam69conv who was hunting. he just posted the link. anyways i took a look at the website and although i doesn't say canned hunt, to me anyway it's obvious thats what it is. for example if they can set there own seasons, that would imply to me that there animals are private property and there for must be farm raised. and like i said before the only you can hunt elk in manitoba is if you possess a tag won in a draw open to provincial residents only. so their elk would have to be farm raised or else they would be in trouble for large scale poaching. what he should have done instead of contacting the humane society was contact the manitoba wildlife federation and/or its saskatchewan counterpart. they are sportsmen oriented groups and are very concerned by this type of activity.

dukkillr · « **Reply #18 on:** September 29, 2004, 11:18:12 AM »

I like this quote... i feel exactly the same way about these types of hunts... i wish others were outspoken about declaring these to be "shoots" not "hunts".

"I believe that operations like Bear Valley Outfitters hurt the prospects of sport hunting. I love this sport and it put such a bad taste in my mouth that Im almost sick. I have now talked to other hunters that had similar experiences on different game farms. Many have stopped hunting altogether."

Lewis · « **Reply #19 on:** September 29, 2004, 01:07:43 PM »

I just have one big problem with what Donohue has written. He went to the trouble of slamming Keith Warren and Bear Valley Outfitters and I certainly understand why he would be upset if it happened the way he described. My question is, why didn't you just call the authorities when BVO pulled the alleged 'bait and switch' on you?

If I'm understanding what you have written, you went to BVO's and confronted the outfitter and with all of your moral fiber, stayed and killed animals anyway. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but, if an outfitter tried and pulled the same thing on me that you say they pulled on you; then there would be a fight!

Sorry Donohue, I think you are F.O.S. and you are just trying to stir things up for your own purposes. If you really were so upset by what happened, no amount of peer pressure should have forced you into killing animals that you perceived as helpless pets.

cam69conv · « **Reply #20 on:** September 29, 2004, 07:10:31 PM »

Lewis,
Donahue Isnt here to fight for himself as I just posted this website to help spread the word on this bull crap outfit...But I will take in his defence quickly...#1 Do YOU have 9 grand to just throw away for moral causes?

? I know I dont and most on here would compleatly agree..Sorry but if I was refused my money back Imma take somethin home with me....If your so rich and can afford to throw 9 thousand bux away Ill take a couple grand maself please....Dont judge unless you have been in the situation yourself mafriend...He was compleatly pissed off and I have spoken with him since then and he is thouroughly disgusted with himself for taking one single animal BUT he has a family to feed and the meat he brought home did just that...Like I said...Unless YOU have been in his shoes dont judge,,Its easy to sit back and say " I would have done it different" But untill you have then dont judge the man...I myself would have done the same thing as would Most of us

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 29, 2004, 07:36:06 PM »

I feel very sorry for the guy, it is a terrible position to find yourself in. I hope that he can pursue this case further. Its hard to say what I would do in his possition but it seems to me he could have demanded a refund and then went home. I was faced with a similar situation once when I went on a hog hunt, I was unimpressed with the situation and refused to hunt a hog, I turned down the hunt and only lost the 150 dollar deposite. Its possible that he could have put up more of a fight and they would have giving him his money back or he could have threatented to take that to court. A lawsuit tends to help people decide to do the right thing. Anyone with 9k to throw towards a hunt doesn't have to worry about how he will feed his family. You spend 9k on a hunt for the rack to hang on the wall. 9K will buy a heck of a lot more beef and pork than it will venison. I won't ridicule his choice to shoot an animal, it was his to make at the situation not mine, but please don't make it seem like he had no choice but to shoot them to feed his family.

markc · « **Reply #22 on:** September 30, 2004, 07:52:19 AM »

I don't know Mr. Donahue so I won't defend or condemn him for his choices. However since a few posters here stated that he should have done something else, lets figure out what he coulda or shoulda done. Maybe this will benefit others traveling out of the country to hunt in the future. Here goes

#1. Demanded a refund. I think they already did that and were told no?

#2. Turned around and headed home. Lost $9000.00 each, plus traveling expenses.

#3. Returned home and filed a law suit? Out of the country? At what expense, how?
As a foreigner, how do you file a suit in Canada and with whom do you file? Coulda taken some time to research that and filed. How much more $ would that cost and what are the chanes of recouping any of the money already spent? Any Canadians out there that can help with that?

#4.Gone ahead and shot (poorly at times) the listed game and then complained about it all later.

#5. Done more research prior to the deopsit being paid, time spent, trip made. Did the story list how many, if any, references were contacted by Mr. Donahue and friend prior to signing up?

#6. Don't take the word of a professional hunter who works for companies who sell hunting products and run game ranches/farms, sponsors his well paying hunting and fishing programs.

Any other ideas guys?
markc

Tom · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2004, 10:50:19 AM »

Get it in writing, what your deposit is for. Write a note with the deposit, so if they accept the deposit, they accept what you understand that you're getting.

Have a witness, i.e. hunting buddy, on the phone too, when all these statements were supposedly made.

Lewis · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2004, 11:33:42 AM »

cam69,

Since you are so quick to come to the aid of this yahoo in distress, I must respond. No, I don't have 9K to throw away on such a hunt. I'm simply stating that Donohue should have done more research before taking this trek.

You cannot fault a professional hunter and put the entire blame on his shoulders! Donohue should have contacted the Fish and Game Department and found out about this outfitter beforehand. Let's just say that Mr. Warren was taken to a different area and turned loose. What if his animals were allowed woodlands and draws to escape? If Keith Warren was tricked by BVO, then they owe him an apology too. I've seen the show that Donohue used as a reference to make his choice. The animals that Keith Warren hunted certainly didn't act tame, and they were very determined to avoid getting killed!

All of this is to prove a point... I'm speculating; that's all any of us can do! We know that Donohue went to BVO and killed animals that were promised him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, he paid for a deer, bear, bison and an elk... isn't that correct? Isn't that also what he killed? Isn't that what Mr. Warren stated on his show that you would be allowed to harvest?

Now, if BVO is a crooked organization, then I hope that Mr. Donohue gets them. His posting of his hunt has certainly hurt their future ability to garner any hunters from this forum. That's fine, that's what makes living in America great. But, I must admit that any outfitter I've used in the past has buckled when I pushed for my money, minus the deposit, because they would want to avoid what is happening right here!

Also, if Mr. Donohue is really only out to help the rest of us, then why did he contact the #1 group of anti-hunters in Canada? Why would he employ their help? Mr. Donohue certainly tells an interesting story and I'm sure that there is a great deal of truth in what he has stated, but, there are two sides to every story and we are only hearing his.

I'm not for, or against, Mr. Donohue in this situation; or, for, or against, the outfitter. I'm wanting to hear both sides to come to a final conclusion. If I'm able to get the other side of this story, you can bet I'll post it post haste!

cam69conv · « **Reply #25 on:** September 30, 2004, 12:11:09 PM »

I have email them 6 times with no responce at all as I myself like hearing both sides to the story...Hmmmmmm Tells me that they either just dont care or they know they stepped in crap this time and hoping it will all just blow over..In answer to your question...Yes those are the animals that he paid for BUT he was also GUARENTEED a FAIR CHASE several times...Over the phone...In thier publication...Was stated on that hunters show that is was all fair chase...And when they got there he was ALSO told that it was fair chase even after SEEING the pens on the drive in..When confronted with all this the gentelmen were refused thier money back...Sorry but im not leaving empty handed after dumping 9 grand and a 30+ hour drive up...Oh and in answer to the cost of a trophy hunt...Have you ever seen the price of venison that you can buy per pound?

? 4 animals ( I particularly dont vavor bear meat so I dont hunt it) per person THATS ALOT OF MEAT...I dont think they are fighting this issue to get any money back but rather to let people know about the tactics of this outfit..Thanks all for the reply's...Lynn

Mohawk · « **Reply #26 on:** September 30, 2004, 05:03:06 PM »

I can see where if you spend that much money for a hunt you would deserve at least some compensation (the meat) upon denial of a refund. Also, tell him don't feel too bad. Here in the Texas Hill Country you can empty a clip at a deer without it running and it is completely wild :-D
I have a Great Pyreneese dog that makes friends with them. Anyway, if you spend $9,000 on ANYTHING make some serious inquiries on what you are getting. But, hypocritically, I bought a $133, 000 house without seeing it and taking my wife's word for it :roll: Kalifornia girls

But, live and learn. I looked at the outfitter's web-site and it has terms such as RANCH deer and RANCH elk. Also specifies WILD deer. I think any reasonable person would conclude that this is a "high" success hunt and most of it appears not to be a wilderness adventure as the person who wrote the article expected. Did they change their site? If not, that is what an investigator would call a C-L-U-E. :wink:

markc · « **Reply #27 on:** October 05, 2004, 04:11:13 AM »

another clue I noticed when viewing the web page was the fence that runs out from their lodge or other out buildings. It is a bit hard to see, but there it is.
markc

cam69conv · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2004, 07:41:34 AM »

From what I have heard yes they changed thier web page as soon as all this broke out to cover thier bums...I dont know this for FACT as I had never visited the site before but that is what I was told.

Lewis · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2004, 01:03:30 PM »

For what it's worth... this was Keith Warren's response from his website forum to Mr. Donohue....

Greetings! I have finally had enough of the garbage that seems to be out there regarding Bill Donahue and Bear Valley Outfitters. It is time that I respond. The reason I haven't responded before now is for many reasons. None of them are the fact that this isn't important. The primary reason for my non-response is simple. There is nothing I can do to make everybody happy. I wish there were, but it's too bad I can't.
Let me start out by saying that I have never met Bill Donahue but I did hear a lot about him when I went to Bear Valley Outfitters camp back in September. Bill had just left there and left a lasting impression.
This was my 6th time to hunt with Bear Valley Outfitters in the past 10 years. There were many other hunters in camp that had hunted with BVO before too. One of which had been back 10 years in a row! BVO has been outfitting in Canada for 22 years and must be doing something right because many many customers are repeats. BVO like virtually every outfitter there is, wants their customers to be happy. With that said, they try to make every hunter have the hunt they want. They do have hunting inside of enclosures, just like the enclosures in Texas and other places. By law, non-residents that would like to hunt elk in Saskatchewan can not do so unless they hunt in one of these enclosures. The elk in Canada (Manitoban species) are the largest in the world in both antlers and body size. It is because of their sheer size that many non-residents travel to Canada to hunt them. Myself included. The areas I have hunted with BVO for elk have been large tracts of land that are heavily wooded and provide plenty of cover for the elk. I have bow hunted there and it has been a challenge.
It is my understanding that BVO accepted Donahue's deposit for the hunt over a year ago and Donahue was not able to make the hunt. Rather than force Donahue to lose his deposit, BVO held it over until this season for him. I think that was the right thing to do as any hunter hopefully would agree. I have read details of Donahue's trip and have also discussed it with BVO owner Chris Switzer.
I want it clear, I don't have anything to do with anything that BVO or any other hunting outfitter does. BVO has been nothing but professional to me and every hunter I have ever been with in their camp. They have always treated each of us with respect and have gone the extra mile to make us happy. I don't have any idea what happened with Donahue to spark such anger. But obviously there is something not right about the entire thing. To hold me accountable for Donahue's misadventure is ridiculous. Donahue is a grown man and if he was put in any type of uncomfortable situation, then he should have done something about it. To blame anyone for this other than himself is wrong. What hunter would intentionally go ahead and participate in what he calls a "canned hunt" before the hunt even started? The answer is up to you. Could it be that he has another agenda? Why would someone go on line and post photos and accounts in such a negative manner? Is it to put BVO out of business? Or is it something more like PETA people would do? If indeed Donahue is a hunter, then why did he not get the necessary paper work that was required by law to bring his meat back from Canada? BVO had supplied him with contact information and he failed to get the papers done. Other hunters had no problem bringing their meat back into the states.
If hunting inside of high fences is the issue, then that is something that seems to be an issue that can't be settled.
Negativity is contagious and I want nothing to do with it. I want to help more people have a better time enjoying the outdoors and that is the mission of our show. We produce shows for all kinds of hunters and appreciate all constructive critisism.
It appears that other internet forums are full of negativity and that is too bad. Our forum is made up of people from all walks of life. Men, women and children enjoy this forum and have made lasting relationships. For that I am grateful.
I will continue to do everything I can to help preserve our right to fish and hunt and urge all others to do the same. Hunting and fishing is what you make of it. There are far too many problems that outdoorsmen and women face in today's world than fighting between us. I do believe that we outdoors people should help police each other. But it should be done in the proper manner and airing dirty laundry on the internet only makes those that participate seem like a group of complainers. It appears that many people have made a decision based on only one side of the story (Donahue's side). I'm confident that BVO will respond to his comments someday. Why haven't they done it before now? It could be that they are busy trying to take care of the hunters they have in camp. It's important to learn all you can about something BEFORE you make a judgement about something.
Someday, I hope to be able to meet Bill Donahue and learn more about his trip to BVO first hand. I'd like to end with "any questions?". But obviously there would be far too many for me to answer and it will only lead to more questions and negativity. My glass is half full! Is yours?
Thanks for your time and I hope you have a great hunting season where ever you are.
Keith Warren
PS. One more thing. Please don't expect me to repond to all comments following this post. I will be busy enjoying what God has given us to take care of. It's hunting season!