Author Topic: I floated ADL stock with bad result  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline bluebayou

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« on: September 23, 2004, 12:38:20 PM »
First off, yes, I am the guy who was overtightening the receiver bolts, but I don't think that that warped the stock.  Okay, I have a Remington ADL Synthetic in 308.  It comes with pressure points at the forearm tip.  I sanded out the barrel channel to float it, because everywhere that I read says that free floating is the way to go.  The problem now is that offhand the forearm flexes enough to touch the barrel.  If I shoot from bags (with the bags toward the receiver) then it does not touch.  If I shim the barrel inside toward the receiver would this work?

Online Graybeard

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2004, 12:51:32 PM »
Ya know there just "might" be a reason Remington puts that pressure point out there. On sporter weight barrels I've seldom found removing it to help, it usually hurts. Floating a barrel is not always the right way to go and with light barrels in my experience darn near never the right way.

By all means put it back. Use glass bedding compound. First use cardboard stock like business cards to see just how much you need to add. Then do it.


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Offline safetysheriff

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2004, 01:15:20 PM »
To cure this problem I would use relatively thin vinyl material to build up the pressure point on the stock.    When you use vinyl it will have less 'give' in it than does other, softer material -- more closely mimicking the performance of the original pressure bedding by the stock.    If you get the rifle shooting Very Well you can then use some JB Weld - I would believe - to glue the vinyl into place.     Re-torque the action screws properly and go shooting.   One of the key concerns, of course, is the get the viny (or whatever) properly positioned so the rifle barrel is centered in its channel in the stock.    The material needs to be symmetrically located in the barrel channel to accomplish that.  

Pressure bedding is an un-heralded aid to accuracy that somehow Remington has kept quietly using for years - very successfully - with relatively few people realizing how effective it can be.    

Good luck.
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline handirifle

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2004, 07:34:45 PM »
OK someone explain why this is so?  Free floated barrels are the ticket in most cases but as you guys say sometime sporter weights sometime have the pressure point.  Why does it not upset the harmonics?
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Offline Omaha-BeenGlockin

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2004, 04:45:50 AM »
Those Remington syn stocks are pretty flimsy----ever thought of getting an aftermarket stock for it??.

Bell & Carlson---McMillan---HS Precision are all good----------The B & C is probably the lowest cost and probably the best value----Weatherby and Remington have been using these for their upper end rifles lately.

Offline safetysheriff

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2004, 06:39:06 AM »
Quote from: handirifle
OK someone explain why this is so?  Free floated barrels are the ticket in most cases but as you guys say sometime sporter weights sometime have the pressure point.  Why does it not upset the harmonics?


Don't think of it as upsetting the harmonics; but think of it as tuning them.    Think of it as an engineered component that has been developed from experimentation.     The trick, as Jack O'Connor may have explained it, is to put approx' five to seven pounds of upward pressure on the barrel.     It's a trick that I'd investigate with any medium to light-weight sporter that isn't shooting up to par.    It's got to be easier than free-floating, and it sure is cheaper.

Take care.
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Muddyboots

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ADL Floater
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2004, 07:49:39 AM »
Totally agree with the Sheriff. Most of my rifles have some pressure on the forend for best accuracy. I free floated an old Savage 110 and it wouldn't shoot worth a damn after that fiasco. Rebedded the forend and voila...back to sub MOA. Light barrels generally tend to shoot better with pressure. Kind of interesting but many many years ago Savage actually had a forend screw to adjust pressure to tune the rifle. I often wonder why this wasn't resurrected since it seemed to work pretty well. All of my Remingtons need pressure to shoot and that they do. One exception is the Sendero which is in a HS Precision stock with fluted barrel. It is free floated and is the most accurate rifle I own hands down. If a rifle doesn't shoot as well as I think it should, I usually look at adjusting the forend pressure either up or down but rarely do I remove it completely.
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Offline Loosecat

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2004, 04:32:29 PM »
I bought a second hand Rem model 7 in .260 SS where the previous owner had sanded back the two wee pressure points at the end of the stock in an attempt to free float. He said he couldnt get it to shoot worth anything so I got it for a good price. Anyways, I built up a pressure point using very thin bits of sheet rubber glued in with rubber cement that encompassed the entire lower third of the barrel (Just as safetysheriff describes above).  Its now locked in quite tight, only at this spot and back at the receiver, and not touching anywhere else - it now shoots very well indeed, as it should. In a lightweight like this, the barrel is just to thin and whippy to be hanging out there all on its lonesome - the pressure points are there for a reason!

Offline oneshotonekill

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2004, 04:42:02 AM »
The concept of free floated barrels really seemed to take off as people started using heavier contour barrels on hunting guns.  Pretty soon free-floated seemed to equal better accuracy in the public eye so the concept was applied to many firearms including some where the principal does not help and can actually hurt accuracy.  A heavy contour barrel is rigid and should experience less movement from vibrations than a thinner more flexible barrel.  By free-floating a heavy barrel we can allow the vibrations to be the same from shot to shot with out any influence (contact or pressure point) thereby allowing more consistancy from shot to shot.  With thinner (whippy) barrels the same amount of vibration causes the barrel to move.  This movement may not be consistant from shot to shot.  The more movement there is the less likely it will be consistant.  For this reason applying pressure or contact to reduce/dampen the vibration or to reduce movement due to vibration can greatly affect accuracy.  Some thin barrels shoot best when fully bedded in the barrel channel, others only need pressure points.  In my experience longer barrels seem to benifit from full lenght bedding and shorter barrels seem to do best with 1 or 2 contact points.  One way to think of it is as a barrel approaches the muzzel it usually tapers down to its thinnest most flexible contour.  If you were to hold a flexible object at one end and create movement the far end would move the farthest, but if you held the first half of the object firmly and created the same movement the far end should move much less due to the shorter lenght of material being flexible.

Offline bluebayou

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2004, 08:29:18 PM »
I went back to the range with Federal 165 BTSP.  This is what I got from 5 shot groups:
floated with sandbag at triggerguard-- about 3"
shimmed with cardstock,sandbag at triggerguard-- about 5"
floated with sandbag behind sling stud--1"
shimmed with cardstock,sandbag at sling stud--3"

I used two business cards for a "firm" fit between barrel and forearm.  Should I loosen the receiver bolts and stuff another one in there?  Did I just get lucky when I made the mistake of sanding it out?  I accept that "Remington MIGHT have put them there for a reason".  Believe me, a $400 investment in the rifle is a big deal to me and I have been worried that I screwed up.  I am pretty happy with a 1" group now will it be consistent?  I don't know.  Need more ammo.

Offline jvs

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2004, 12:58:35 AM »
Ideally a Sporter should have a Manleicher (spelling?) Stock.   It may go against the idea of less weight but there was a reason why those stocks went up to the muzzle, less metal and alot less vibration.  

Ugly as they are, they have an important function.  The same with Barrel Bands.  You either have to seperate the harmonics as much as you can or make it vibrate as a unit.  No doubt one day glass bedding will fall by the way side.

Hold on to your Walnuts boys, there will be a premium some day.
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Offline gunnut69

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2004, 01:11:41 PM »
Barrels vibrate when thet are fired.  Heavy or light makes no difference they all vibrate.  The difference is that the stiffer or more rigid the barrel the higher the frequency of the vibration.  The barrel is in effect a tuning fork.  The more rigid the tuning forkl the higher the pitch.  This rigidity can come from several sources, heavier barrels or short barrels.  Either will increase the pitch of the barrel's vibration.  The idea of pressure bedding it that it isolates the front of the barrel and the rear of the barrel. Creating 2 sections with the rear most section stiffened by the tension applied.  The end of the barrel vibrates in a figure '8' pattern when fired and the bullet must exit the bore at the same point each time for accurate shooting.  If we raise the frequency the size of the firure eight becomes smaller  and the exit deviation also becomes smaller.  Generally the effect of pressure bedding is smaller on an already rigid heavy barrel so there is less gain.  Usually to the point where it is unneccessary.  A thin barrel  is more effected by the same amount of pessure so the effects are more pronounced.  The best pressure points should apply the force evenly at about 8 oclock and 4 oclock.  This creates a crdlinmg effect that will help the barrel to return to the same point in it's at rest position.  Skin tight bedding of a barrel full length also has a calming effect on barrel vibrations but was much harder to acheive especially on the longer sections found in mannlicher stocks.  Epoxy bedding has made installation of such a full length bedding a much easier job.  Please remember the pressure while it does have a helpful effect, it also has a detrimental side.  The stock that applies the force can swell f it is wood or if synthetic the pressure can be affected by the resting point of the stock on the front bag or even the tension applied to the stock by a shooter using a tight sling as a shooting aid.  The concept that all one has to do to accurize a rifle is float the barrel is simply put, wrong.  GB is most certainly right in that usually most sporter barrels will shoot their best with pressure while with havy barrels there is much less effect.  There may well be a loss of consistancy with pressure bedded barrels although, usually, a hunting rifle will hold it's zero long enough to get thru a season...  Free floating is much misunderstood as is pillar bedding.  Pillar bedding does not alter the bedding of a rifle at all.  It simply imposes a non compressable material between the receiver and the bottom metal.  This stops compression which can cause the distances between the action and the bottom metal to change which will effect the bedding.  So if you pillar bedded a rifle and it began shooting better, you really altered the bedding in the process of installing the pillars.  So while you botched the pillar bedding process you got lucky and altered the bedding in a positive way...Also while one can use plastic of vinyl to temporarily install a pressure point these materials are not permanent and can be altered by chemical used to clean rifles.  Use them as temporary pressure points and install a Acraglass point as a permanent pressure point.  Remove the glass from the 8:00 up and from the 4:00 point up, then remove a groovel down the center of the barrel channel, leaving behind 2 points to support the barrel at rest.  This can be thought of as a permanent installation..  Be warned,,  As time goes by the pressure aplied to the barrel by nearly any stock will change and the rifles accuracy my change with it.  There is no permanent fix with impermenent material.
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Offline handirifle

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2004, 07:24:01 PM »
My Savage 110 30-06 has a sporter weight barrel, is free floated and doesn't give a hoot where I rest it.  It shoot 1" or better and I have the targets to prove it.

I have never had anything but sporter weight barrels and none of them had pressure points.  All but one shot very well indeed.  This proves nothing but just thought I'd share some more stats with ya. :-)
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Offline jvs

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2004, 12:01:23 AM »
I believe Savage put alot of R&D into the design of their rifles in the last 15 or 20 years.

Just imagine an American manufacturer spending time and money developing a rifle that shoots well and doesn't cost an arm and a leg! ! !   It isn't a hard concept to understand, and if the product catches on, the payoffs are fantastic.  As Savage is finding out.  Quality performance can be mass produced.... If the maker takes the time to work the bugs out before it gets to market and then sticks to quality specs.

Before you know it, more might even try doing it.

The problem that remains is LAZINESS for most producers!

If the 110 had failed, Savage would be no better than Marlin.
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Offline safetysheriff

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2004, 01:03:38 PM »
Quote from: handirifle
My Savage 110 30-06 has a sporter weight barrel, is free floated and doesn't give a hoot where I rest it.  It shoot 1" or better and I have the targets to prove it.

I have never had anything but sporter weight barrels and none of them had pressure points.  All but one shot very well indeed.  This proves nothing but just thought I'd share some more stats with ya. :-)


It may be true that the very zealous use of hammer-forging by Remington and Ruger, which creates tremendous stresses in the metal when the barrel is being forged, calls for pressure bedding in more instances than do the button-rifled barrels so common with the benchrest suppliers and produced by Savage.    I'm not sure; but I think there could be some connection.   I believe Winchester has used both forms of rifling, but am not sure.    

Any thoughts?
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline handirifle

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2004, 06:50:39 PM »
Seems I read an article a while back about a guy that visited the Savage factory and they even let him make a complete rifle (with coaching of course).

What they REALLY stressed were the barrels.  He said they only put their most experienced people on the barrel machine and were very diligent about changing bits on the drilling/boring machine.  They paid critical attention to the production of the barrel and this may explain why they come out so accurate.

I'm not saying other companies do not, but Savage is doing something right when the first thing anyone will tell you is it is an accurate rifle.  To me I need go no further in looking for a sporting arm.  Reliability and accuracy are the two top items.

I suppose if I came into a ton of money, and went on a dangerous game safari, I might want to consider more money on a rifle for absolute positive feeding, but most deer do not charge, so it's not an issue.  In all honesty, the only rifle that's ever given me any feeding issues is the 30-06 I currently own and I fixed that myself.
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Offline oldelkhunter

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I floated ADL stock with bad result
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2004, 08:44:00 AM »
I have never had a remington that didn't have a pressure tip in the barrel channel and not shoot extremely well with one exception. I sent a remington out to a gunsmith to have accurized( he guaranteed 1/2" groups) it came back shooting much worse since it was pillar bedded then freefloated by this "GUNSMITH".

  As far as Savages go it could be that the Savage has a stiffer reciever then a remington and could lead to its accuracy. The bores I have seen on Savages while probably straight since they shoot well remind me of a coal mine and are not even to the naked eye smooth.
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