300 H&H ?

[dave hall]

does anyone have this cartridge?i want to find one used, but if i can't than i'm going to have a custom barrel made for a bolt or a #1.what do you guys think of the 300 H&H.worth putting in a custom or not?thanks :-)

[Patriot_1776]

Are you familiar with the cartridge's history?  It is a pretty rich one.  First of all, the 300H&H started the magnum rage in the U.S.  It was designed by the British firm Holland & Holland before the first WW.  During that period, it was almost impossible to obtain a rifle in America, due to the expensive imports, or the equally expensive custom made rifles on the magnum mauser action.  It really became popular thanks to Winchester, who chambered their Mod. 70 in 300 H&H in 1937, two years after Ben Comfort won the 1000 yard Wimbledon title, very impressive indeed.  With that light thrown on the subject, I say it would definitley be worth the customization, if needed.  I was originally thinking about the cartridge myself, but wanted a little more power to my battery.  I don't own one, but from what I read in the Barnes manual, with their bullets,  and the newer powders formed in modern day, it is in really close competition with the newer magnums out there.  Take care and let us know what you think.   Patriot

[Lawdog]

dave hall,

A fine old cartridge that was supposed to have died off years ago but has too great a following to let that happen.  Mine is a pre-64 M70 made in 1960.  In my opinion it is a cartridge that is well worth doing a custom job on.  I have seen a number of M98 mausers, 1917 Enfields and other actions used as a basis for a custom rifle.  I really like the idea of one on a Ruger No. 1.  The only drawback that I know about the .300 H&H is it needs neck trimming more often that "magnums" with sharper shoulders.  Personally I don't think it's that big of a problem.  Lawdog
 

[Questor]

Is there an advantage to the 300h&h versus the 300 win mag? I don't understand the difference, although the 300 h&h seems cooler just because anything originating from h&h is cool.

By the way, have you seen the H&H web site? Check out the prices-- in English pounds-- woooo-eee! Check out the price of the 700H&H double rifle:

http://www.hollandandholland.com/gunrooms/london/newguns/royal-double-rifle.htm

[Patriot_1776]

In all parameters of sanity, who would want to chuck a good sized house payment for a cannon like that?  I'd say just invest it in something worthwhile, like a vehicle or something to that nature.  But a .700 NE double rifle?! How often would one shoot it anyway?  AND the ammo is much more expensive the the .50 BMG, right?   Just a few cons of owning one, and alittle jealous criticism for those that DO own one. :grin:  :-D   Patriot

[mart]

Dave,

I have had a couple of them. My first was a tack driving Remington 721 which I sold to finance the purchase of a Remington KS left handed mountain rifle in, yes, 300 H&H.

I like the round. It scratches a nostalgic itch like most of my rifles. I have used it along side every 300 magnum in existence and have found that it gives up nothing to any of them. Yes it is a few fps behind them but in the field there is no perceptible difference in performance. I use 200 grain Grand Slams or Partitions for everything. They work well and leave little bloodshot meat.

I have yet to find a bullet that my rifle will not shoot well. I have loaded 130 grain Speers to 220 grain Hornadys. They all shot well. The cartridge is easy to load for. It likes 4350, 4831, RL19 and RL22. There are other powders that I am sure will fill the bill. These four give a reloader a lot of latitude. I very seldom have to trim the necks. I don't load right up against the wall. When I did in my younger days I had to trim cases more. The long taper of the case makes for effortless feeding and recoil is very managable, even in that 6.5 pound mountain rifle.

I highly recommend the round and hope you enjoy it as much as I have. Good luck. Mart

[Questor]

About the .700H&H double rifle, at 120,000 pounds, that's about 210,000 US dollars.

[MGMorden]

About the .700H&H double rifle, at 120,000 pounds, that's about 210,000 US dollars.

For that price I could likely afford tuition for a mechanical engineering degree, design the thing myself, and then buy the equipment to make it  .

[bigdaddytacp]

does anyone have this cartridge?i want to find one used, but if i can't than i'm going to have a custom barrel made for a bolt or a #1.what do you guys think of the 300 H&H.worth putting in a custom or not?thanks :-)

.......Yes ..I also use a P64 Mod 70 from 1953......they come with a 26inch barrel and as the other post notes..the 300H/H gives up a few fps to the bigger 30mags but you have to go to the BIG wildcats to get a lot more speed and effectiveness for almost any normal hunting..imo.....brass is still available and is of decent quality....the sloping shoulder makes it feed slick and a little extra care in resizing can make the brass last for several loadings and slow the growth a little with good matching to the guns chamber......the Number 1 can use the long barrel and still have a easy to carry package.......the style of the custom should match the "idea" of the H/H to hold its value ......good luck and good shooting!!

[Yukon Jack]

Are you familiar with the cartridge's history? It is a pretty rich one. First of all, the 300H&H started the magnum rage in the U.S. It was designed by the British firm Holland & Holland before the first WW.

The 300 H&H was introduced by Holland and Holland in 1925, some years after WWI.  It is based on the 375 H&H Belted Rimless Magnum case.  In fact, it was the 4th of the Belted Rimless cartridges introduced by Holland and Holland.  The first was the 375, the 2nd was the 275 H&H (1911-12), the 3rd was the 240 H&H (sometimes called the 240 Apex) around 1923.  The 275 and 240 were both based on a shortened and steeper shouldered 375 H&H case.  There is very little difference between the 275 H&H and Remington's 7mm Mag.  H&H probably realized the qualities of the 30-06 Springfield and upped the velocity on their own case.

I have a pre-64 Winchester M70 in 300 H&H.  It seems to thrive on bullets weighing 180 and 200 grains.  Until you get to the 200 grain bullets, the Winchester Mag version typically will add a few fps.  With 220 and the long 250 grain bullets, the H&H version can be loaded to surpass the Winchester version while holding pressures the same.

It's a grand old cartridge.

[dave hall]

thanks guys. like i said i really want this cartridge.i just have to try to find one used,or find a used #1 to build it on.as soon as i find one i'll let you guys know.i do want it for nostalgia,and to say i have an H&H.

[Yukon Jack]

Ruger made a special run of No.1's in 300 H&H a few years ago.  I believe it was the S version.

[dave hall]

thanks yukon jack,
  thats exactly the #1 i'd want it in. I'll have to call ruger to see how many they made. finding a used one could be a long search.thanks again for the info.
    It would be nice if Ruger could make me one.  :grin:

[Yukon Jack]

A No.1 in 30-06 with the chamber cut for the H&H should work fine.  A rebarrel of nearly any of the No.1's would also work.  All the No.1's are based on the same action.

[gunnut69]

I have a M70 pre64 in 300 H&H.  The power is not its real advantage its the feel.  It's nearly sinfully smooth as that long sloping shoulder slides into the chamber.  I can't remember the manufacture date of the rifle. I bought from an old friend who was selling some guns to fund an operation.  He's still alive and sometimes asks after the rifle..their like that.  The single shot 300 H&H I have was made as the poster suggested.  A 30-06 caliber B78 Browning was rechambered to 300 H&H.  I bought it after a fire damaged the home it was in and I recouped it.  Should make a really nice rifle.. This is truly one of the great cartridges of the world.

[Patriot_1776]

The 300 H&H was introduced by Holland and Holland in 1925, some years after WWI.

Oops! :oops:   Thank you for the correction, Yukon.  I misread the book.  It said H&H pioneered the belted case design before the first WW.  Again, that design is still with us...Although I've heard it is really a cosmetic thing nowadays.  Take for instance the RUMs made by Remington, that is proof the need for a belt is nothing other than for looks.  Patriot

[MGMorden]

The single shot 300 H&H I have was made as the poster suggested.  A 30-06 caliber B78 Browning was rechambered to 300 H&H.

How much modification would be required to convert a bolt action .30-06?  Would it just be a simple rechamber, or would you have to do something more extensive (magazine/bolt alteration, barrel setback, etc).

[Yukon Jack]

For bolt action rifles, depending on the size of the original action, the bolt face will need to be opened, might need some rail work, the action may need opening (Winchester originally did this for the 300 and 375 H&H Mags), and the chamber re-cut.

[Yukon Jack]

The 300 H&H was introduced by Holland and Holland in 1925, some years after WWI.

Oops! :oops:   Thank you for the correction, Yukon.  I misread the book.  It said H&H pioneered the belted case design before the first WW.  Again, that design is still with us...Although I've heard it is really a cosmetic thing nowadays.  Take for instance the RUMs made by Remington, that is proof the need for a belt is nothing other than for looks.  Patriot

H&H did pioneer the belted rimless case around 1909, but the first case was the 375 H&H.

The belt isn't merely cosmetic.  For cartridges with long sloping shoulders like the 375 H&H, or with no shoulder like the 458 Win Mag, the case either needs a belt or a rim to headspace on.

Now, when Winchester first introduced their own Magnum line of cartridges, they began with the 458.  The 338 and 264 followed, then later the 300 Win Mag.  While the 338 and 264 had enough shoulder for positive headspacing, two things made them continue with the 458 case (or what is essentially a blown out and shortened 375 H&H case).  One was the big cases popular now (like the RUM, WSM, WSSM, Dakota, etc...) are based on the 404 Jeffery.  At the time Winchester introduced their Magnum line, 404 Jeffery brass was scarce as hens teeth.  It would have also required a complete reworking of their actions.  Both of those on top of something they didn't even know if it would sell.

So, to introduce their line, if they would have used the 404 Jeffery case, they would have had to retool for a larger action, start a whole new brass manufacturing spec, go to all that expense on cartridges they didn't know would sell or not.  Because of the popularity and size of the brass for the 375 H&H and 300 H&H, they knew what would be needed to do to their actions to make them work flawlessly, there was several manufacturers making brass, and costs were minimized.  Financial RISKS were minimized.

Until the last 5 years, the 404 Jeffery had languished in obscurity since Kynoch had quit making cases.  It took independent firms like Dakota, Lazzeroni, etc... to prove there was a market for cartridges based on the Jeffery case.  Again, Winchester's R&D, along with risk of sales failure was minimized, as the Dakota line was already selling well enough to ensure a moderately priced rifle and ammo combination would sell enough for Winchester to undertake the conversion.

The belt may have not been needed on sharp shouldered bottlenecked cartridges, but it was the lowest risk and most available case to build their magnum line on.  Especially when Roy Weatherby was already doing that and having good sales.  It made financial sense.  Not a marketing ploy.

[Yukon Jack]

does anyone have this cartridge?i want to find one used, but if i can't than i'm going to have a custom barrel made for a bolt or a #1.what do you guys think of the 300 H&H.worth putting in a custom or not?thanks :-)

Just noticed a decent deal in GunList for a 1952 M70 300 H&H 97% on the metal.  Excellent bore.  Wood original, but has an add on recoil pad.  The rear sight has been upgraded and there is a Redfield receiver sight.  Pack and Postal Center in Lancaster MA has it listed for $875.

This is the same year model as mine, and if as described, should be worth $875.  Mine is a very fine rifle and I highly recommend the 1952 M70.

[IntrepidWizard]

My first new rifel was a 1958 Model 70 in 300 H&H,shot a quarter with three roundsi in a shoot out and won a Remington Models 58 in French walnut.Traded it for two guns in middle 60's like a fool.I should add I had a 6x Kholmorgan scope.

[Yukon Jack]

In the same issue of GunList there's a 1957 M70 in 300 H&H for $795 from a different dealer.  Sounds like it's in similar condition to the other one I mentioned.

[dave hall]

i was talking to a guy at my local gun shop today about getting a 300 H&H. an older guy standing beside me said he has one,and to make him an offer.he has an Win. model 70 in a pre-war model I don't know what cond. it's in. what do you guys think a bottom line price to start at would be.the guy at the gun shop said to check an see if the throat was burned out.is there any thing else I should look for ? your help will be appreciated.thanks :-)

[Yukon Jack]

A pre-war M70, if in unaltered condition, will not be drilled and tapped for a scope and the safety is not conducive to scope mounting.  They did not have recoil pads installed either.  If it is pre-war, it will just have "300 Magnum" on the barrel.  It won't say 300 H&H Magnum.  I'm not sure when the year was that Winchester started putting 300 H&H Magnum on the rifles instead of 300 Magnum, but suspect it was after Roy Weatherby began having success with the 300 Weatherby Mag.  Mine has 300 H&H Magnum on it as do all of the 1950 or later M70 300 H&H's that I have seen.  I don't know when the changeover date was though.

Those are very slick actions though.  Probably closer to a work of mechanical art than a production firearm.  I have a friend that has a pre-war 300 H&H, though it had a recoil pad installed and wasn't in pristine condition.  He still cannot bring himself to drill it for a scope and is considering selling it for year model nearer to mine that was drilled and tapped for a scope.  The best way to attach a scope on a pre-war M70 would be a Griffin & Howe side mount because of the safety.

For a hunting rifle, I think I'd rather have a post war pre-64, if you are going to mount a scope.

Check the serial number of any Pre-64 for year of manufacture at this site http://armscollectors.com/sn/winlookup.php?file=winxx70.dat

None of the pre-64 M70's came from the factory with a recoil pad installed, I don't think.  Mine didn't.

Depending on condition and your interest in the rifle as a collector or shooter, the price can vary widely on the M70's.  I've seen 99% condition M70's in 300 H&H made as late as 1960 going for $1600.  The earlier the year the higher the value.  Bull barreled target M70's command a higher premium than regular M70's or even Super Grades.

For a rifle in good condition, say around 95% condition, a post war pre-64 that have not been altered typically bring around $1,000 for the 300 H&H.  Sometimes it drops to about $800, other times up to around $1,300.  Just depends on the time of year and the location of the rifle.  Tack on a couple of hundred extra greenbacks for those pre-wars.  I've seen many of those starting around $2,000 for 95% and up condition.

From what I've HEARD (I have no idea if it's true), the metallurgy and heat treating combined with the hand finishing of the action and stock reached a pinnacle on the M70's from about 1950 to around 1958.  Evidently, after around 1958, the fit and finish began to suffer.  Before that the metallurgy and heat treat were not as good as in later years.  Again, that is what I've been able to gather from a few custom gunmakers, shooters, and gunsmiths.  I have no idea if truthful or not, so take that for what it's worth.

[dave hall]

thanks yukon jack for detailed answer.I want the 300 to hunt with not so much as a collector gun.if i'm going to pay that much i'll just put a custom barrel on a used #1.thanks agian.

[oneb]

Expect to look hard and pay big bucks for a Ruger special run #1 in 300 H&H. Very few were made and most are in collections.

I recently had a NIB .30-06 1B rechambered to 300 H&H and accurized. It is a great rifle. It only needed a new extractor and a very little surgery on the case holder. Not cheap but I can shoot it all day while a 300 Win mag bweats up my rotator cuff.

Having done that, I now have a Ruger #1 being rebarreled into a .338-06.

If Ruger won't do it, why not fo it yourself?

.35 Whelan next?

oneb

[dave hall]

thanks for the info
what cal. can i get the #1 in that i wont have to change the extractor. if i build one its going to be on a #1.has anyone used the factory ammo from Win.,or Fed.

[oneb]

Unless you are going to rebarrel, you are limited to a .30-06 as it is the smallest .300 #1 that will allow for a 300 H&H reechamber. (All the others have wider shoulders and will not "clean-up".)

Those fixes are not all that expensive.

You could just go with a .300 win mag if you can take the ouch.

oneb

[GreatWaputi]

My father-in-law just gave me a 1957 vintage Winchester Model 70 .300H&H Magnum. The rifle has had exactly 4 rounds put through it. He received it as a high school graduation gift and fired it one time trying to sight it in and decided the recoil was to much, so he put away.

I've lusted after this rifle for several years and never thought it would actually be mine, as I thought my brother-in-law would end up with, but he doesn't hunt or shoot whatsoever, so I don't think he'd appreciate it one bit. The only string attached from my father in law is that he made me promise I'd actually use it...I gladly obliged!

This rifle currently wears a vintage El Paso made Weaver KV 2-3/4x-5x variable scope. I'm debating whether or not to swap out the scope or to leave it just as it would've been in '57.

Somebody also mentioned that pre-64 Model 70's didn't leave the factory with recoil pads. I've read that the .338's and 375's (Alaskan's) had solid red rubber recoil pads standard. My .300H&H has a Winchester marked solid red pad that my father-in-law says came from the factory, but may have been special ordered by his dad.

IMHO, the .300H&H combined with the pre-64 Model 70 is the perfect classic combination of rifle and cartridge.

As a side note, he presented me with a Belgium Browning take-down .22 semi-auto at the same time. This rifle was manufactured in 1968, and is also a class act.

[kutenay]

I have owned 33 Pre-64 Mod. 70s in the past 36 yrs., of which 3 were .300 H&Hs, I currently own 10 plus two original H&H modified actions stripped from rifles, here are a few points.

1. The firm of Holland&Holland developed the belted case, but, based on work done in Germany and the .375 H&H was NOT the first cartridge or case that was belted, the .375 belted rimless nitro express was and there was a European round either coincident or slightly before this, the title escapes my memory at the moment.

2. The WSM cartridges ARE NOT based on the .404 Jeffrey, they are original with Winchester and are actually based on the experimental .345 Winchester autoloader case that they worked with for the US gov't, sometime after the First World War. this took it's dimensions from the .50-110 or .50-100 rimmed case used in the 1886 rifle and possibly in the 1885 as well, I can't remember. The .348 Win. is the better known offspring of this round, chambered in the Mod. 71, Merkel double rifles, custom bolt guns and so on. The wilddcat predecessors of the WSMs were the Gradle Express cartridges developed in the post war years by Roy Gradle of, I think, Seattle.

3. The RUM cartridges were developed here in Vancouver, B.C. during the '80s, I know the people who did it very well. There were divers wildcats similar to these made up for years using I.C.I.-Kynoch brass. Reminton simply named these, with minor changes to facilitate mass production, much the same as the .22-250 Rem. which should be Wotkyns-Neidner, etc.

4. Winchester made many variations in the Mod. 70, I have a .375H&H with factory dual crossbolts, have seen a .300H&H with them, had a .375 with a steel buttplate and have seen .300s with red Win. pads, they are quite common. I have even seen .264s with pads from the factory. I had a .270 FWT. withh a whiteline pad which was identical to that on some of the .264FWTs and I am 99% sure it was factory. So, they would make about anything a jobber wanted to order.....in the good, old days.

These are fine rifles, I have four minty .338 Alaskans and love them. I can shoot the .300H&H from an unsupported offhand position better than anything else. I hope to find another one to replace those I had to trade for my Merkel in 12-12x9.3-74r. I have shot so many .35-.6" groups with these that it is no longer a surprise to me. I honestly think that the 1950's Mod. 70s in .300H&H and the .270STDs may be the most accurate factory rifles ever built and I have owned and do own about every type of highhgrade postwar sporter made, including the rare stuff like Brno ZG-47s and 21-Hs.

Anyone who can find an unaltered one of these at a good price should buy it, a .300H&H is about the ultimate in class, cool, and they kill like a deathray without the recoil and blast of a .300 Roy.