Author Topic: building new "old" rifles (Read 1694 times)

kevin.303 · « **on:** September 15, 2004, 04:06:02 PM »

Now I know that weve been over this before, sort of. I have come to accept the fact that the Lee type action is not very suitable for building custom rifles in modern chamberings. But what about antique and classic cartridges? I got the idea in my head again when I was watching The Ghost and The Darkness the other day. In the movie Val Kilmer carries a beautiful custom .303 built on a Lee-Metford. In those days a custom safari rifle was usually built on the military action of the day. In the future I want to get some gunsmith training and also build the occasional custom as well. Im not talking making a career of it, but build a handful every year, usually on commission. When I first had that thought I was thinking of using commercial and Mauser actions to build modern scope mounted high velocity rifles. Now Im thinking old rifles old cartridges. Instead of benchrest stocks, Alexander Henry and Schnabel fore-ends, express sights instead of scopes and high quality wood instead of nylon. Heres a list of base guns and cartridges I was thinking of

Lee-Enfield No.1 MK 3

.303 British
.30-40 Krag
.375 2 ½ Flanged Magnum

Lee-Enfield No.4 MK 2

.303 British
.30-40 Krag
.375 2 ½ Flanged Magnum
.405 Win.
.40-60 Maynard
.45-70 Govt.
.444 Marlin

Ross M1910 Straight Pull

.280 Ross
.303 British
.300 H & H

Martini Single Shot

Pretty much any big bore cartridge of that day

Im sure there are a lot more European and English cartridges as well but this is all I could think of for now. Bubbad Lees and Butchered Rosss are still pretty cheap but Martinis are getting harder to find.

It is an impossible dream? I tend not to think so. I have no illusions of trying to make a living doing this or becoming rich. I just want to build nice rifles for shooters and collectors the way they used to. (And have lots of fun testing them!)[/b]

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2004, 04:00:32 AM »

kevin303: No, that is not an impossible dream, it is actually a pretty creative concept and when done right, quite a beautiful application.

There is much you can do with the SMLE action. As you know, one firm out there is building 45-70 rifles on the #4, Mk1 action - Gibbs it is. Now, before Gibbs did that, a fellow in England build a 45-90 on a 303 British action. It can be done, especially with the lower pressure rounds such as the lever action rounds. In that regard, the 45-70, 45-90, 444 Marlin, and some of the 35 caliber lever actions come to mind. And, you have mentioned some of the European cartridges too, so there are lots of options.

Believe me, a nicely customized #4, Mk1 in 45-70 or 444 Marlin would be a prized member of my collection, and one that got significant use.

Go for it friend, and I hope to read about your success and see some of your efforts posted for the world to appreciate. Mikey.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2004, 11:19:37 AM »

i plan within a year to start building a .405 on a No.4 although i won't be doing the work. thats still a few years down the road but this site should still be around, so i might even become a paying advertiser in the future. how long has this site been around? i know it was redesigned in nov 2002 but i heard from someone it had been going for 5 years before that.

Catfish · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:11:44 PM »

You left out one very good action that you can get pretty cheap right now. The Russian Moslin Nagant actions. I picked up a couple of them and had a .410 rifle built on one of them. The actions are good for 45,000 psi, which is more the the Enfield by about 15,000 psi. It also has the large bolt face so you can chamber for the mag. cartridges, or just the old .303, or even a .410 with any blot work.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:44:33 PM »

true the M/N is a good action and are very cheap, but does it really clean up well into a sporter? i'm going for the classic english rifle look like those converted by Westley Richards or Daniel Frasier.( i think towards the end of of his career he did mostly SMLE conversions, not too sure.) has anyone seen pictures from the turn of the century of customized M/N's, perhaps built for russian nobility? i don't think it was ever done but someone will probably prove me wrong. i like mosin nagants and will probably buy another one fairly soon, but for this kind of project i can't see using one. of course if it where a business and thats what was ordered i'd do me best guv'nor...

Con · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2004, 06:35:22 PM »

Guys,
Another beauty regarding the Enfield actions are their slick cycling and 10 shot magazines. An article has just appeared in an Australian magazine about a custom SMLE, with English style stock, reblued and refinished, it looks just gorgeous!
Cheers...
Con

kevin.303 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2004, 06:04:58 PM »

ohh yes are they ever slick cycling! i've practiced a fair amount and can work the bolt almost as fast as the slide on a pump gun. still can't hit anything though. what i'm thinking of is trim the mags down so they only protrudes about an inch out of the bottom, and they are squared of instead of round. i know thatdoesn't sit well with many but if it's already being sportered...

with the larger calibers like 45-70 the mag has to be modified to single stack. the gibbs model looks like its a full size mag and it only has a 3 round capacity.

another thing i thought would be neat to do is to name each individual rifle, wheter it's being built for a customer or for myself. after a .405 No. 4 i plan to build/have built a .375 H & H Mag. on a martini. my justification is "moose hunting". since it was got me thinking on this i figure call them "The Ghost" & "The Darkness". or maybe name them after african hunters then and now like hemingway, capstick, boddington. that kinda thing.

Con · « **Reply #7 on:** September 19, 2004, 11:48:23 AM »

I don't think a 375H&H can be built on a Martini action... can it? Nicest rifles I've seen locally in your vain are a semi-custom No4 in 444Marlin and an all-out custom 12 bore on a Martini-Henry that shot fist sized groups off-hand at 75yards, using a Paradox slug naturally. I think the 12 bore had accounted for quite a few piggies too!
Cheers...
Con

kevin.303 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 19, 2004, 05:30:13 PM »

:oops: :oops: DOUBLE POST :oops: :oops:

kevin.303 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 19, 2004, 05:40:10 PM »

if i remember correctly the pressure on a martini is 60,000 PSI max. and the max pressure on a .375 H & H is 62,000 PSI. i didn't think it was that high. does anyone know where i can find a list of pressures for the following cartridges?

.375 2 1/2" flanged magnum
.300 H & H
.416 rigby-38,080 PSI
.333 NE
.404 Jeffreys
.405 Win
.458 Lott
.470 NE
.505 Gibbs

Judson · « **Reply #10 on:** September 25, 2004, 12:31:29 PM »

Have you thought about using a P-14 or P-17 action? These actions are very over looked and under rated and will gobble up cartridges the size of the .416 Rigby and larger. Some have even gone as far as the .505 Gibbs on this action though this is pushing it a bit in my opinion.
With some machine work and such they can look very nice much like the 720 Remington. I will try to post a picture of my P-14 which is chambered for the .366DGW which is based on the .416 Rigby necked down to 9.3 mm

kombi1976 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2004, 09:59:31 PM »

You have my vote, Kevin, and I think I know which article you're talking of, Con. You're right, it's gorgeous and it's reminded me that I really need to strip the lacquer off my .25/303 stock and oil it properly.

Kevin, if you could safely use a No.4 action for 416 Rigby you may have something there. The only draw back is that it is a magnum length cartridge and I think you'd have to work out a novel feed system for the magazine or just make it a single shot.

Keep in mind that a martini can be made to extract a rimless case but it's real fiddly and not really worth it.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2004, 04:50:40 PM »

actually stuff like .416 rigby would be built on a martini. like you siad it's a max length round, but it's been done with .45-90 sharps and loaded as a single shot

kombi1976 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 28, 2004, 04:52:55 AM »

Quote from: kevin.303

actually stuff like .416 rigby would be built on a martini. like you siad it's a max length round, but it's been done with .45-90 sharps and loaded as a single shot

There is a catch there though and it isn't OAL. The 45-90 is rimmed. I'd love to have a .416 Rigby on a large frame Martini myself but the fact remains, it's a rimless cartridge and it'd be darn fiddly. An experienced gunsmith who builds a lot of black powder falling blocks and martinis said he's done it but it involves welding extra material into the extractor, which takes a lot of care to avoid ruining the strength of the steel, and then filing it to suit the round. It's a lot of work that's painstaking and troublesome. The P14 or even the No.4 action is a much better bet.

But hey, if you think it'll be easy enough to do, have a go. In fact, do it to prove me wrong :wink:

Out of interest, is it possible to build a .416 Rigby on a No.1 or No.4 SMLE action? I gather the magazine would prove a problem if one wanted it to be a repeater.