223 at the range

[Varminter]

I'm going to the range this weekend with my new handi in 223. I haven't got to shoot it much between school and work(maybe 5 rounds ) and that was the ammo that come with it.
I'm gonna pick up a couple boxes of shells and was wondering what you all have had the best luck with?

[MSP Ret]

Winchester White Box. Economy stuff, 40 rounds to the box at Wal Mart....<><.... :grin:

[Donaldo]

Ditto that,
It gripes me but the WW white box econo box of 40 rnds, 45 grn JHP, NOT THE 55 GRN FMJ, shoots better than anything I have been able to load yet.  I just got a three shot group at 100 yds of slightly sub 1/2 MOA with my 223 Ultra Varm. using this 45 grn load.  Why, I don't have a clue.  Short OAL, long jump to the lands but can't argue with results.  The secret is to rest the Handi receiver on the bags and not the handgard.  Makes a big difference, at least with my rifle.  I decided to try a shot with the barrel resting on the sand bags, the shot did not even hit an 8x10 target.  These rifles are very, read VERY, sensitive to where it rests on the bags.

[handirifle]

I plan on hitting the range Fri AM and sighting in my Savage '06 and taking some shots with my 223 Ultra as well.  I also am going to try out my inherited '94 Big Bore 375.

Would love to try the 50 cal ML but won't have that much time.

Donaldo, I can only think that there MUST be some barrel movement upon firing to make that happen so pronounced.

[Donaldo]

I might also suggest that you not waste your money on the Wolf brand of ammo for the 223.  I got a box of this, 62 grn., and it shot all over the the target.  The group, if you could call it that, was about 7" at 100 yds.  Be sure and break in your barrel.  Shoot 1 or 2 shots, and clean, repeat this for at least one box of ammo.  Then clean after every 5 shots for the next box, then you are ok.  But cleaning often when the barrel is new is very important.  It lets the bullets iron out the minor rough spots in the barrel without building up copper deposits over them.  Treat that new barrel like your first sweetheart, be nice to her at first and she will reward you in the future.

[Donaldo]

Yeh, Its barrel movement,
Actually its barrel harmonics.  Go to Varmint Al's site and read what he has to say about barrel harmonics.  All the benchrest shooters use a fully free floating barrel on their rifles.  When you rest your Handi on the forend your are actually resting it on the barrel, because the forend is attached to the barrel.  I have tried the spacer between the lug and sanding the forend for clearance, etc.  Not much effect.  Rest your receiver on the sandbag, ie, jam the trigger guard against the bag, and you will be amazed, at least I was.  Thats what makes these rifles so attractive.  They are very temperamental, but you find the sweet spot, ie what they like and they will reward you with sub 1/2 MOA.  And for less than half what most rifles cost.  You just can't beat that.  Anyone with the bucks, can drop a load and get sub 1/2 MOA and brag about it.  But I like the challenge of spending the least I can and still get the sub 1/2 MOA.   To me thats what makes this sport so interesting.

[kjeff50cal]

Donaldo,
You are right about those 62 grain Wolf .223 Loads     . I had a feeling about them. I shoot a NEF Clone (Rossi) and I got exactly the same results.... The Win White Econo Box loads will shoot at most 3/4" with my Rossi topped with a Bushnell 3 X 9 (cranked to 7 X). This gun shut-up a fellow shooter at the range that claimed he had one in the past... It out shot the brand new .223 remchester he was trying (I said trying) to sight in. The 1 in 12" twist is the problem but Wolf ammo is ify at best. I pulled a bullet from a 62 grn load and found an air bubble  in the lead off center of the base!!! Just enough to destablize the bullet in flight!!!

Edit : I looked closer at the base of the 62 grn. Wolf .223 bullet I pulled... It ain't an air pocket, it is where the swage ram pushed the lead into the jacket case. Off center to say the least :shock: .

kjeff50cal

[handirifle]

Another poster mentioned a 63gr Sierra bullet that is designed for the slower twist rate (read fatter) and seems to work well.  I have not tried it but plan to sometime this year.  

So far My Ultra does not like the white box stuff.  I hope it soon does cause that is cheap, (low cost) quality ammo.

[MSP Ret]

handirifle, are you shooting the WW white box 55 grain solids or the 45 gr hollowpoints?....<><.... :grin:

[Fred M]

Donaldo

Rest your receiver on the sandbag, ie, jam the trigger guard against the bag,

During longer range field shooting how would you fabricate a position like that. which is completely unorthodox for various reasons.

When you do the above you are using the gravity of the barrel to create pressure on the latch and keep it more solidly in place. My calculations tell me, depending on barrel length and scope weight distribution to be about 18lbs.

If that is the only way to get any kind of accuray, you best look at other parts of the Handi to cure the problem. In any event a bench gun it is not, and neither it is a 400yrd game rifle.

For any distance shooting in open country many hunters use a Harris bipod, which attaches to the sling stud. Try to make your gun shoot resting near the sling stud or a bit behind it, this is also close where your hand is when shooting sitting are prone.

There is no valid reason to test or sight  in a rifle any other way, unless you shoot your rifle only off a bench. Even that is a poor positon for the gun to rest.

When you talk about barrel harmonics, you can only use this word when everything behind and below the barrel is rock solid and stable for every shot. Fred M.

[Donaldo]

Fred M.
Yes, I have read the info on your site.  I know you have done a bunch of work with the Handi's.  And, maybe it worked for you, I have not tried everything you mentioned and will not argue with your results.  But, #1, I am not trying to make a bench rifle out of this, I know what those are.  #2, I am not trying to make 400 yard hunting shots with it either, in fact I only shoot at the range and then at paper.  Just trying to make it shoot a good as I think it is capable of.  Trying to make it shoot good is what I enjoy, different strokes you know.  I have an idea that I am going to try and if it works I will post it here, but for now I won't discuss it.  I think these rifles will shoot very good if you approach them right.  Resting the forend on a bag, no matter what you do to the forend is not the way to go, in my opinion.  BTW, have you tried using silicone between the forend and the barrel instead of the foam?  If I could figure out how to keep silly putty between the forend and the barrel I would try that.  I think silicone with very light screw tension has more potential than foam.  If you have tried it let us know.
P.S.  As to  the harmonics, I think you are flat wrong on your statement, you will have barrel harmonics any time a bullet goes down the barrel, period.  Don't make any difference how it is supported.  Also, what differnece does it make about pressure on the latch as long as it stays locked up.

[Nightrain52]

I too have been wondering about the effects of resting the gun just in front of the trigger gaurd. This may be fine for bench shooting or under controlled situations. Let's bring up a real life situation, it's the last day of deer season and you are confronted with a huge buck with trophy antlers running at full speed and no time to get in a good shooting position other than offhand. You know your handi will shoot great from a rest but now there is only an offhand shot available. Knowing your handi will only shoot an offhand group of 8 to 10 inches do you pull the trigger or not? :eek:  

[MSP Ret]

Nightrain52, I am of the belief that if a shooter's Handirifle shoots nice small groups off a rest at reasonable hunting ranges but 8-10" groups offhand it's most likely the shooter not the gun. What do you think?....<><.... :wink:

[Fred M]

Nightrain52.
Your point is well taken. My idea of tuning the Handi is to make alll parts  as solid and unmovable as you can when the rifle is in battery. A near solid forearm bedding will vibrate off the bags as in your hands nearly the same for each shot. Consistant vibration is what is needed.

The difference will be in the load variation setting up diferent occilations modes for which there is very little remedy. except studious hand loading to reduce velocity variations from shot to shot. Barrel harmonics are one thing but loose parts in conection with the lock up is a different animal.

Loose connections do not set up consistant vibrations, hence big groups.
Remember that 0.001" loosness behind the hinge pin  will generate group enlargements in excess of one inch at 100 yards,  providing there is no added play in the hinge pin. Fred M.

[olredhead]

Don't hunt deer with my 223 but in the field I do use shooting sticks and I do pull them back against the trigger guard . My two cents       redhead

[DICK]

BlackHill has reloaded .223 in 53 gr Match HP that shoot great  in my Handi and the price is right @ about 18 bucks for the varmint pak.

[AZ223]

I agree with all of you; I hadn't realized how much the placement of the forend rest affected accuracy until recently. Using the Win. 45gr HPs I was 1/5-2" resting on the front of the forend; when I brought it back to just in front of the receiver I got consecutive groups of .5" at 100yds. Haven't tried resting directly on the receiver, but I will this weekend. Also will see if it has the same effect on my 17 Sportster.

Another ammo to try is the Ultramax 40gr V-Max. It's a little light in the wind, but groups as well as the Winchester. They also make a 52gr load, but I haven't tried it.

[handirifle]

Well I went to the range this AAM like I said.  The 223 is getting better and better.  The white box (45 gr HP) is doing better but not best.  I get about 1 1/4" at 100 with the white box and about 3/4" with the Hornady Vmax 40gr loads.

Nice suprise was the 46gr Win HP bullets (reloads) are almost as good :grin:  :grin:

Now the bad news , My Savage HATES the Nosler Partition, or at least the loads I made up.  It was somwhere in the range of 6-7" at 100yds ,
What a bummer.

Of course I'm not sure it was entirely the ammo.  I need to get a couple boxes of factory stuff as a base line.  All I tried was reloads and I also had just mounted my new Simmons Aetec.  I REALLY hope it is not the scope.  I don't know if I have enough time to send it in for replacement/repair.

Maybe tomorrow I can sneak back out with some factory stuff.  My cases were a bit long (NO I didn't trim them, I know, it's my fault) and that may be causing pressure spikes since I did get some flat primers.

Now I need a bullet puller to empty the cases and trim them like I should have done at first.  You'd think I hadn't done this before.

Oh, before I forget, there was a guy there that sounded like he was touching off a cannon when he shot.  On closer examination, HE WAS.  A Ruger #1 in 416 RIGBY.  Talk about a cannon!  A 350gr bullet at 2900fps :shock: .

[handirifle]

Oh yea, I forgot to add, my new rifle rest works GREAT.  Easy to set up and rock solid.