Range Report....

[quickdtoo]

Just got back from the range, shot a bunch of different .25-06 loads including the 100gr Win psp. Best group was a toss up between Federal 115gr nosler partition and Hornady 117gr BTSP. Both had 2 shots almost touching and a third keeping the group at 1.1" at 100yds. I was gettin tired cuz I had spent most of the morning sighting in a muzzleloader for a first week of October hunt. I'm sure that being pooped didn't help my groups. Also shot the .357 Maxi and .45-70, my first handloads were a success in the .45-70 with 3 shot 100yd groups of 1.5" and 2 of those touching on each group! The load was 28gr of 2400 and a 350gr hornady RN. Also shot 51.5gr of 3031 with 300gr Rem HP, good but not quite as good as the 2400/350gr RN load. Shot some Rem green box 405gr and Win 300gr HP, both shot 2.25" at 100yds. The Win loads are the hotest at over 1800fps and kicked the most, too! I tamed the recoil with a Sims Limbsaver pad and a pound and a half of lead in a pipe that just fits in the stock bolt hole. Along with a past magnum shoulder pad, I could shoot all day. There was a fella shootin a .470 double rifle next to me, his ammo made my .45-70 rounds look like a rimfire in comparison, kicked him bad too, he wouldn't shoot at the bench, only standing and I could see why!!!

Shot the .357 maxi using Dan Wesson ammo, hot stuff! Shoots good too, but had a couple of perforated primers and everyone of em cratered. That's on a topper frame I got from BigBoreFan. Apparently the Dan Wesson ammo is too hot for the topper frame. I shot the .357 maxi barrel on an SB2 frame and the primers looked great, shot a 3 shot group at 100yds, with 2 at .6" and a third an inch away. I though it was pretty good considering I only have a 4x scope on it. Now to the cleaning.....

[jeff223]

sounds like you have a bunch of good shooters on your hands.maybe the fireing pin in the old shotgun frame comes out to far.it only takes a little bit to much get some cratering in the primers with these guns.my 223 will crater my primers but i dont worry about it much.its just the nature of the gun

[De41mag]

Tim;

Sounds like a good day at the range. Ya know I live for days like that, it seems I don't have a care in the world when I'm shooting.
By the way, how much does your 45-70 weigh in at after adding all those assocories and that Ultra Varmit stock. Just couriois.
Sounds like you've got some real shooters.
Keep posting on your range reports and congrats on your handloads out doing the factory stuff.  :grin:

Dennis  

[quickdtoo]

sounds like you have a bunch of good shooters on your hands.maybe the fireing pin in the old shotgun frame comes out to far.it only takes a little bit to much get some cratering in the primers with these guns.my 223 will crater my primers but i dont worry about it much.its just the nature of the gun

The cratering isn't much of a worry, but the hot gases coming back into the action can't be good for it when it perforates the primer. Even with just 2 of the first 4 rounds being perforated, there's some etching around the firing pin already. I think I'll just shoot it with one of the SB2 frames to be safe, or maybe I'll try my pardner frame for fit. Thanks, Jeff.

[quickdtoo]

Tim;

Sounds like a good day at the range. Ya know I live for days like that, it seems I don't have a care in the world when I'm shooting.
By the way, how much does your 45-70 weigh in at after adding all those assocories and that Ultra Varmit stock. Just couriois.
Sounds like you've got some real shooters.
Keep posting on your range reports and congrats on your handloads out doing the factory stuff.  :grin:

Dennis  

Hi Dennis!

Yup, I started at 9:00 and quit at 3:30, looong day at the range but I got a lot accomplished. Got the black diamond .50 sighted in with 105gr 3f T7 and a 295gr Powerbelt, dead on at 100yds. The .45-70 and the .357 maxi are sighted in dead on at 100yds, and the .25-06 is sighted in 2.5" high at 100yds.

 I have another gun that weights 10+lbs, and the .45-70 with the laminated stock and lead and S&W scope weighs at least as much, maybe a bit more.

I got to thank all of ya for sharing your pet loads, they work excellent!

Tim

[lik2hunt]

quick - could you elaborate on the "etchings" you mentioned in the firing pin area. What are they? How are they shaped? How would one know if he had the same kind of problem?

[quickdtoo]

It's just a discolored area around the firing pin caused when the hot gases came through the primer. The 2 rounds that had the perforated primers made the action real hard to open. The others that were just cratered around the firing pin strike were hard to open but not as bad. I had to break the action open over the forward rest to get it open. After changing to an SB2 frame, the primers looked normal, and it shot real good too! I was real proud of my bore sighting job, looking through the barrel and adjusting the scope to the object in sight through the bore. First shots at 25yds took out a 1" black dot, then at 100yds were 2" left of center without touching the scope!

[jeff223]

i guess i missed the part were you stated you had a perforated primer.thats not so good.hope it didnt burn the fireing pin to bad

[Donaldo]

I have had my 223 Ultra about 2-3 weeks and just got the scope mounted last week.  I got the Simmons ATV (a very impressive scope for less than $100) mounted and bore sighted.  Took it to the range and shot 20 rounds of PMC 55 FMJ stuff just to get it sighted in and plinkin.  Not too accurate.  I bought a bunch of different stuff, loaded ammo,  at the OKC gun show last weekend.  Got a box of 62 grn Wolf, a box of 55 FMJ American Eagle, (Federal I think), a box of WW white box 55 FMJ and some remanufactured ammo on LC brass and what looks like Rem or Win 55 soft point, (mfg in Dallas the guy said, $16/100).  I had a box of WW white box 45 grn varminter's.  The Wolf stuff is not worth buying.  Out of 20 rnds only about 14 hit a 8x10 target, grouped if you could call it that about 8" at 100 yds.  The WW 55 FMJ stuff was about 2-3 inches, the Am. Eagle about the same and the Dallas stuf about 1.5 to 2 inches and the WW white box 45 HP varminter shot a 5 shot group of 3/4 inch.  Was I happy about that.  This econo WW white box 45 grn. also shoots good in my 22-250 bolt gun.  Anyway I have about a 100 rounds thru the 223 so far and the accuracy seems to be getting better.  Will try some handloads as soon as my shell holder comes in.  I like shooting this single shot more than any of my other rifles.  Just wish it had a better trigger.... I just might get the nerve to try the trigger work as mentioned on perklo's site.  Happy puppy so far.  Whew..... long winded, huh.

[quickdtoo]

Donaldo,
Needing the trigger job makes for a good excuse to send the frame in for another barrel! Get the trigger job done at the same time.... Both of my frames have great triggers on em, wouldn't want one with the factory trigger if all of em are like mine came, 7-8lbs!

[Donaldo]

Quick,
Can you get the trigger job with getting another barrel?  I don't really need another barrel,  well maybe a Hornet wouldn't be too bad, but I have the ultra with the bull barrel, and the forend, etc,.... Anyway, I don't deer hunt anymore, had my custom 30-06 FN mauser converted to 22-250 with a shilen barrel, so I am pretty much covered in small bores, what with a custom 243 also.

[quickdtoo]

No, ya gotta ask for it, depends on the pull weight, if it's too high they'll reduce it to ~3lbs, but if it's below their threshold (5lb, IIRC), they charge $20. It's just an alternative to doing it yourself IF you need another barrel.

[jeff223]

Donaldo,you might want to try the Black Hills ammo out of your 223.they have some great ammo for the money and they offer many differant bullets.the Black Hills ammo is a reloaded ammo.the 52gr match hollow point stuff shoots real good

[Donaldo]

You know, I been thinkin,  dangerous thing, the wolf ammo was 62 grn bullets.  Most of the other stuff was 55 grn FMJ.  What shot the best was the 45 grn HP.  The WW white box stuff.  In working up some loads for my 22-250 bolt rifle with 55 grn Vmax I got a keyhole with H-380 near max load.  The Handi and my 22-250 both have 1/12 twist.  Maybe this twist is not enough to stablize the 55 grn bullets.  According all I can find it should be.  Berger Bullets site lists up to about 64 grn with 1/12 twist on the 224 bullet.  Anyway sure is fun trying to figure out what to use in this puppy.

[quickdtoo]

Donaldo, this notice came with my .223 Ultra Varmint.

And a related thread...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=38550&highlight=223+55gr

[Paul5388]

My .223 will shoot 62 gr  Samson (IMI) into about 2" at 100 yards.  It doesn't seem to like any of the Hornady V-Max, like 40 gr, 50 gr and 55 gr.  It shoots 55 gr Rem PSP about as good as anything, so far, except Win white box 45 gr Varminters.  The Win's shot  5 shots in less than 1" today at 100 yards.

Tomorrow I'll shoot some 16.5 gr IMR 4895 loads with 55 gr Rem PSP and 55 gr Rem HP's (Hodgdon's 60% formula) for acuracy and velocity.  I shot one tonight just to test function and it shot about like a Hornet.

[Donaldo]

Quick,
Yeh, I got that notice with my rifle also, but had forgotten about the 55 grn cut off point.  Course they say 55 and under should be OK.  Greater than 55, i.e, 60, 62, etc. may not stabilize.  And I undrstand about the warning about military stuff, never know what your going to get, what with all the imported stuff.  I guess NEF is just CTA.  However I repeat, Berger Bullets, one of the premier bullet makers recommends a twist for each of their bullets.  In 224 dia, the largest bullet they recommend for a 1/12 twist the the 64 grn.  And with the 45 grn they recomment 1/15.  So I donno.  Seems I heard that the barrel on the Handi's are micro-grooved.  If so maybe this has something to do with it.  Mine also has a rather long throat.  But here again, the Winnie 45 grn JHP has a rather short OAL.  Guess a long jump to the lands is not that big of a deal.  Another thought, my barrel appears to have shallow lands and grooves.  Maybe the heavier bullets are skidding a bit before they get up to full spin.  Anyone every heard of that.  Would be nice to catch one in mid air and take a look at it.  Anyway, ain't it fun trying to figure out what makes these things sing.

[Fred M]

Donaldo.

You wrote

Maybe the heavier bullets are skidding a bit before they get up to full spin

I think the scenareo is quite likely. If your barrel is like mine namely 0.0015" over size the bullet gets hardly engraved in the micro groove where the grooves are only 0.002" deep. This means that the bullet only engraves a 1/2 thou on each side or maybe only on one side? Who knows?

A heavier bullet may very well skiddy along from the starting inertia until it decides to spin. By that time the bullet has considerable damage form the skidding and becomes toally unbalanced.

In order to keep down pressures NEF has resorted to the micro groove, oversize leads, long throats and over size chambers. That what I see and hear. My rifle has all of those short comings.

One thing about the micro groove barrels, they are very smooth and quite consistant from one end to the other and take very little break in.

If you can make a  barrel over size, smooth and constistent, you can make one that is the right size. Precision gun smith will send a barrel back that is 0.0002 off size. Barrel makers know that and they make barrels the right size

I know that is not what people like to hear, but that is what I found.

Fred M

[Mac11700]

Fred:

I don't think they have always done what your talking about...I would almost bet that some of them are...butthat makes it seem like it's a quality control problem...my 308 had a long throat...but the chamber size was darn near perfect...and the rifling was too...but what grips me is when you call them...they will give you a song and dance about being within specs...and try to feed you a different story everytime...I don't know who's doing the chambering and rifling...but it would stand to reason NEF doesn't care to correct the situation with them...that's why I've always said...if you get one that shoots great ...keep it...if not... call them...tell them all you've done to get it to shoot and send it in...if it still doesn't work out...trade it off and try your luck at another one...it's a pain...but  that's your choices...unless you want to send it to a qualified gunsmith to work on it at your expense...


Mac

[MSP Ret]

To get back the the first post on this thread, Quickdtoo, now that deer season is just ahead of us, that 45/70 load with 28.0 grains of 2400 with a Hornady 350 grain RN half jacket is one of my all time favorites for my 45/70 Handi. I even spoke of it on the old site. It has never failed to give me excellent accuracy and it packs a lot of  "Ooomph!!" when it hits. There is not a deer in the northeast, and some lucky hunters get 250-300 lbs dressed whitetails every year in Maine, that could withstand the energy form a good hit with that load. I find it to be a easy shooting load also, not bad on the shoulder at all, whats not to like about it....Carry On!!!....<><.... :grin:

[quickdtoo]

MSP, have you crono'd that load? I was wondering what kind of velocity it has. Thanks,   Tim

[De41mag]

Tim;

Have you singled out a load your going to use, or are you still experiminting with loads? Just wondering if you have found the one yet your going to use for deer hunting.

Dennis  

[quickdtoo]

Actually, I'm not using it for deer, I have a muzzleloader tag for deer this year cuz I have an opportunity to hunt private land in a muzzleloader unit prior to the modern rifle season. If I hunt with the .45-70 this year, it will be for elk the first week of November. I haven't decided what I will use, but it's all sighted in for the 2400/350grn RN loads. I also have a box of PMC Silver 350gr FN sierra ammo that I want to try sometime before elk season. Anyone try it yet?

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/362657

[MSP Ret]

quickdtoo, No I have not chronographed that load, I don't own a chronograph. If the bullets or slugs make one big ragged hole in the paper or if they are all near each other and make small groups on the paper that is what I am after. I enjoy older guns and calibers but do own a few of the newer calibers, .17 HMR, 7mm-08 and a .308, even have a .340 Weatherby Magnum!!! All the others are of older design, 45/70, 7x57, .348 Winchester, 30/30, 30-06, shotguns and muzzleloaders.
I think these nice Handi's are fine little hunting rifles capable of easily and safely taking everything on this continent. If handloaded and pushed I think they can take any game in the world. But as I said, I feel they are first and primarily hunting and fun guns. The most important thing to me is the bullet goes where it is aimed and reaches there with enough velocity and energy to ethically and safely do its job. The difference of 2200 fps vs. 2230 fps second really isn't of much importance to me, however others here enjoy that aspect of the sport and I think thats great. They may play golf like I do (most likely better than I do :-D ) but not be interested in the science of correctly making and adjusting golf clubs to help a player reach his potential or to assist a "regular guy" player in correcting a slice or fade, but that really interests me.  
So in a nutshell, I don't know the velocity of that load, I just know it hits where I point it. Unless really needed I do not like heavy recoiling rifles and handguns, I have shot them before it's just that they don't interest me. I would rather hit the target at 1800 fps with a 300 grain bullet than miss is at 2300 fps witha 500 grain bullet (ouch!). It's the same in golf, Harvey Penick, a great old golf instructor once said, "The woods are full of long ball hitters", the meaning of that statement was, its better to be 200 yards straight down the middle of the fairway than 300 yards out and in the woods!!!
I have found surprisingly that shooting guns and hunting is a lot like traditional archery, golf and also, not surprisingly, like life, better to be happy, saved and poor than miserable, lost and rich....<><.... :grin:

[quickdtoo]

Thanks, MSP....My goal is to have a flat enough shooting .45-70 that ~200yd shots are not questionable due to the rainbow tradjectory. From my reloading manual I suspect the velocity is in the 1500fps range. With a 100yd zero that would make the impact at 200yds the better part of 2' low. Where I hunt elk, there are many clear cuts where elk love to hang out, the cuts can be anywhere in the timber and you're just as likely to see em there as in the timber so I'd like a load that is not only accurate but shoots fairly flat(for a .45-70) to 200yds. I mainly hunt the timber but the clear cuts are always going to be in my line of travel, somewhere, and when I find em, I usually skirt it from a few yards inside the timber. An alternative would be to zero at 150yds, but with the 2400/350grn combo, the energy at 200yrd is ~850ft/lbs, too low for elk. I have a .308 BLR that has killed many elk, but I'd like to make meat with the .45-70 for a change, if I can do it without blackpowder limitations. :grin:

[Fred M]

Quick.
You can't have your cake and eat too. You know the old song Love and marriage---------- you can't have one without the other.

My elk rifle used to be a 340 Wby mag and 250gr Bitterroot bullets. I don't hunt elk anymore. With that rifle you are set for any range you can hit the animal and kill them in either x-x or Y-Y direction and have an exit hole. If you don't want to play the Rambo game you need to leave the 45-70 at home.    Fred M.

[handirifle]

quicktodo

Here are some number for the 450 Marlin. The 45-70 can easily be loaded to theses levels in modern rifles.  This is from the Connely Precision ammo site.

350 Gr. Hornady JFP MV 2080 /ME  3362  100yds +5.32 / 1704 / 2256

200yds  +0.00 / 1392 / 1505


405 Gr. JFP MV 1980 / ME 3480      100yds  +5.71  / 1649 / 2413   200yds  +0.00 / 1371 / 1669


Here is their 45-70 loadings.

350 Gr. Hornady JFP  MV 1950 / ME 2955   100yds  +6.18 / 1594 / 1974

200yds  +0.00 / 1304 / 1321

These are the Marlin level of loads.  They have Ruger #1 levels also but Marlin/NEF has stated their rifles are safe with Marlin levels and below.

405 Gr. JFP   MV  1900 / ME 3206   100yds +6.28 / 1581 / 2218  

200yds  +0.00 / 1316 / 1537

According to these loads you might just need to push them a bit faster.  They WILL KICK at these top levels so be forewarned.  In addition, the numbers do not tell the same story as have many peoples experience with the big bores penetration levels.

I've read many accounts of 150 yd buffalo shots of 400gr loads at 1500fps blowing right through both shoulders of Bison.

[quickdtoo]

I'm looking at the PMC Silver 350gr Sierra FN loads @2025fps and the Winchester Supreme Partition Gold 300gr at 1880fps. Or any recommendations on handloads that are accurate and have 1000ft/lbs energy at 200yds with a controlled expansion bullet. From the looks of Buffalo Bore's ballistics, the NEF can take the load, just a matter of finding a load that the gun likes. I'm not worried about the recoil, so far everything I've shot from the bench is a pussycat compared to my 835 Ulti-mag offhand! The lead in the stock combined with the limbsaver and laminated stock tames the recoil completely.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SPG4570&cart=NDUtNzAgR292ZXJubWVudA==

[quickdtoo]

Quick.
You can't have your cake and eat too. You know the old song Love and marriage---------- you can't have one without the other.

I believe there's a good chance that I can, just gotta find the right load. I can live with 12" of drop or a couple inches high at 100yds. Just need the right load. :grin: I'm not much into cake, though....I'm more a meat and taters kind a guy! :wink:

[Fred M]

Quick.
All joking aside you best stay within 100 yrds with at least a 350gr bullet with max vel. Even though I used a very powerful rifle I always shot for the head or the neck when all possible. I still do that on deer since I am not a trophy hunter.

Elk are tough critters and many are lost because of not enough punch with small bullets.
That has been the consensus of a couple of friend who hunt Elk with the 45-70.

One other point I like about you is that you always answer back. A few people when given advise don't have the courtecy to reply.  Fred M