Which .270 WSM??

[goose7856]

I recommended a .270 WSM to one of my friends, and he seems to think it will fit perfect into his style of hunting......he mainly shoots justs deer, and can have some longer range shots so this was the first gun tthat came to mind.  I researched for him a little and I have only heard great things about Tikka so i looked at them.......they have almost every model in the .270 WSM..........But for his price range, the lightweight, synethic model, and maybe the Hunter t3 model, will fit into his budget...........he wants to stay around $400 or less (those are about $460).............I also looked at remington's but dont know if they make it in the WSM.  He doesnt want a Savage, he wants to get a good brand, and he is trusting me (his parents are buying this for him for christmas).  He is set upon this caliber, unless we can not find one to fit into his price range.........and there any other makes and models for a .270 WSM that we should look into??

Thanx ahead of time!!

[safetysheriff]

Look around at the various web sites re: problems with the Short Magnums; and then think about going back to the original .270 Winchester cartridge.    Nothing fancy.    Just the hottest performance out there short of a magnum....largely because of its Very High working pressures.    

Your friend can get a Model 700 ADL Syn' at Wal-Mart for $379, or a Weatherby VanGuard for $388 at the same place.    

I'd stick with the original for better/easier results.

Take care.

[Big Tom]

Goose I have tried the short mags and have to agree with the S Sheriff. While the SMs are fine a standard .270 is offered in virtuallly every brand and model, the ammo is everywhere, and although the Rem 700 ADL and Vanguards are fine....the Tikka would be my choice in that price range.
Then go to SWFA and get a Whietail Expedition for 119$ from the sample list and he will have one "tack driving" huntin iron!  :eek: for varmits to Wapiti.

[Lawdog]

safetysheriff,

Look around at the various web sites re: problems with the Short Magnums

What problems??  No rumors like the one about feeding problems please.

goose7856,

Forget Remington.  They don't chamber any rifles for the .270 WSM cartridge, YET.  Tell your friend a Weatherby in .270 WSM is available in Vanguard Stainless and Vanguard Synthetic.

He doesnt want a Savage, he wants to get a good brand

Tell him Savage is a good brand and at this point in time about the most accurate out of the box rifles he can get.  I have a Savage M10 in .270 WSM and it started out shooting just over 1/2" @ 100 yards and has only gotten better with load work.  A savage may not be the best looking rifle in the rack but any rifle that shoots like they do isn't ugly either.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[safetysheriff]

LawDog,    (nice handle!)

I admit that I don't remember too much problem with feeding in the .270 WSM we worked with months ago....but I know the rifle was set up C-H-E-A-P by Winchester to sell at Wal-Mart (I believe that's where my friend bought it for under $400 with scope, bases, and rings,etc.).     It was a C-H-E-A-P set up with a very high intensity cartridge that seems to be burning out barrels faster than I'd want them to.    Nothing about it was impressive to me...      A C-H-E-A-P rifle in such a high-intensity cartridge must have been developed with cost-cutting measures, I'd expect.    And that's part of the problem!

The Hodgdon website will give you a clue:   60 grs' of H-4831 with the 130 gr' Hornady SP in the original .270, versus 67 grs' of the same in the new WSM with the same bullet.    Those are max' loads.      (67 grs' of H-4831 is a middle-of-the-road charge for a 168 gr' Sierra HPBT in the .300 WSM!)   It's a lot of powder in a smallish .270 bore!

The new .270 WSM is possibly headed, as are some of the others, for new steels in the barrels because of this problem.     Supposedly some of them will be chrome lined.   We'll see.    If so, the price of those rifles will go up; but at least we'll get somewhat better/longer lasting shooters.

Take care.

[bigjeepman]

I, too, have heard and read about all the feeding issues with the "short magnums." I shoot my .300 wsm a lot and have never once experienced a single problem. I bought the Winchester Model 70 Super Black Shadow, added a muzzlebrake, lapped the lugs, tuned the trigger down to 3 lbs, and have had great success with my reloads using 165 and 180 gr Nosler BT.

A friend bought this same model in .270 wsm and loves it. I will admit he doesn't shoot his much ... but he still loves it.

Best of luck in your choice ...

[copp]

One of my 270 wsm rifles is the Winchester super shadow. Cheap price at Wal Mart but nothing cheap about the rifle. Did lighten the trigger pull which was easy and put on Leupold scope. Rifle shoots great with no problems. The stock and recoil pad seem to be designed very well, amazed at the relatively mild recoil of this rifle. Really no evidence that the wsms are barrel burners. Lots of rumors but so far nothing really unusual for a high velocity round. The wssms might be getting a special barrel lining.

[7magWoodsman]

I myself, would try to come up with some extra cash and give it to my folks to make up the difference to get a Ruger M77 MKII and then send it back to Ruger to get the trigger set at 3.5lbs.(for free).

But if all he and/or his folks can afford is $400 I would take the Remington 700 ADL(no WSM available), a "cheaper" Winchester M70, or a Savage(good guns overall) before I would get the Japanese made Vanguard ANY DAY, and be VERY APPRECIATIVE at that!!!

As for the WSM, Have you seen what a box of 20 rds. cost??? If your friend goes with the standard good ole .270 Winchester he could get a FREE box of shells for every 3-4 boxes he buys compared to the WSM.
Remember the Gun DOES NOT kill the animal, the man behind it does...and in order for the man to use the rifle to kill the animal, he must first know how to use it, especially at longer range, and the only way to do this is to be able to find ammo YEAR round with out problems as well as be affordable, and the standard .270win. does that for you.
And yes, I know what the ballistics say about the .270WSM but does your buddy have any reason or the experience to shoot outside of the .270win.'s effective range?

Also, a lot of "inexperienced" shooters think a cartridge with the word "Magnum" in it will kill better...NOT SO!!!

I use a 7mm Remington Magnum and will not use anything else, but I practice with it often and can keep my shots around 1" off-handed at 100yrds. and can shoot it effectively out to 500 yards using a "natural" rest...the "Magnum" does NOT do it for me...I do it with the "Magnum".

I highly recommend for you to rethink the situation and get his folks to get him a rifle chambered for the almost 80 year old .270 Winchester, which is, in my opinion, one of the TOP 5 hunting cartridges available today.

Stay Safe. Happy Shooting/Hunting.

[hkg3k]

I use a 7mm Remington Magnum and will not use anything else, but I practice with it often and can keep my shots around 1" off-handed at 100yrds.

Wow, 1" groups offhand @ 100yds from a hunting rifle!

[7magWoodsman]

Wow, 1" groups offhand @ 100yds from a hunting rifle!

My personal best using a factory load, that I actually measured, was here recently using 140gr. Remington CORE-LOKT ULTRA Bonded, I put three shots at 7/8" @ 100 yards off-hand. I use my sling for leverage, but other than that it was true free hand shooting...The key is YEARS of practice, preferably with the same good accurate rifle, that you are totally comfortable with and squeeze off the shot "AS SOON AS" you "find" your  target. Don't wait, shoot, "AS SOON AS" you find your desired Point of Impact. Use the appropriate breathing method and shoot as much as possible...

I guess I owe my shooting skills to one experience and a few people...
The one experience is this: I was about 7 years old and my granddad had a catfish pond that was full of snapping turtles, and the more turtles I killed the farther away I had to shoot because them old turtles would dive down in the water as soon as they seen me and when they came up for breath, I would not have time to shoot em....I found out that when I was around 75-100 yards away they was comfortable enough to lay on the old log on the edge of the pond, and since I could not see over the weeds laying prone or crouching, my only choice was to shoot them turtles standing with my uncles old Remington Bolt action .22lr. I got pretty good after a while.

The main person I have to thank for my marksmanship is my Dad. He went to great lengths to insure I gave "EVERY" critter a quick merciful death no matter the distance or the position I was put in during a hunting experience...I remember quite a few times he would tie me upside down and tell me if I could load my rifle and shoot cans that way, I could do it any way...He was right.

My uncle is another, and he went to great lengths to push my abilities to their limits when I was growing up...

the last remaining people I have to thank for my marksmanship is all of my cousins, whom I used to compete with regularly, and lost and won MANY bets to/from...

[copp]

The Winchester super shadow sold at Wal Mart is not any different than any of the other super shadows and I believe this rifle won some type of gun of the year award last year for what that is worth. The scope is a Simmons 8 pt but for the price replace if you want.  I have 2 other 270 wsms that were priced more and they all all have no problems and shoot very well.  Can adjust trigger yourself in 10 minutes and will not void warranty on a Winchester.  
The rifle I have gone hunting with the most over the last 20 yrs is a Browning A bolt in 270 win. Still like the wsms. As for price do not really see big difference since I only shoot premium bullets.
My next rifle will prob be a Tikka. Could not find Tikka in wsms in Dallas area and was told by some gun shops that few would be available.
The wsms have me at the range more often and shooting tighter groups.
From my own personal experience buying new rifles over the past 2 years hard to go wrong with Savage,Browning or Winchester.

[Lawdog]

safetysheriff,

Wish I could take credit for the handle “Lawdog” but I can’t.  My third grade teacher(Mr. Aabrams) hung it on me, so all the other kids started to call me Lawdog and it stuck.

As already stated the Winchester M70 Super Black Shadow is what is sold at Wally World.  Same Shadow that is sold in the local Mom & Pop Sporting Goods store only Wal-Mart buys them by the train load thus the lower price not that they are any different.  When Winchester first introduced the .300 WSM the first rifles did have a feeding problem.  Winchester recalled them, fixed the problem.  Old news but for some reason those that don’t like the new WSM cartridges keep bringing up this issue.  And as for the new cartridges being barrel burners, it brings up a question?  Why should the .300 WSM be any more of a barrel burner than the .300 WM it equals?  Anyone can burn out a barrel on even cartridges like the .270 Win., .30-06, etc. by just reloading their cartridges to max. levels(seen it happen before).  My .223 WSSM has 1,000 or so rounds through it with no signs of throat erosion yet there is a story that Hornady tested this cartridge and burned out the barrel with just over 300 - 400 rounds.  I know many others that have this cartridge and none report throat erosion like Hornady supposedly got.

Would I recommend a .270 Win. for a beginner for Elk?  The .270 Win. in the hands of a more experienced hunter is fine but for someone that doesn’t have the experience to wait for the right shot, within the right range the answer is NO.  The .270 WSM will drive the same bullet deeper(added velocity - 200 plus fps.) thus making the angle and range a little less critical.

The Hodgdon website will give you a clue: 60 grs' of H-4831 with the 130 gr' Hornady SP in the original .270, versus 67 grs' of the same in the new WSM with the same bullet.

The charge of 60.0 gr. of H4831 is also a compressed charge for the .270 Win. while the 67.0 gr.(not compressed) charge for the .270 WSM is listed as max. it is still well below the case capacity of 73.16 gr. and it is still over 200 fps. faster.  As for the cost of ammo the answer is reloading.  And it doesn’t take that much money to get into it nor does it take up all that much room.  I know that my son has a .270 Winchester and after shooting my .270 WSM he plans on trading it off for a .270 WSM.  Lawdog
 

[7magWoodsman]

goose7856,
What rifle/caliber is your buddy currently using to hunt deer with? What scope does he have mounted on it? Does he use his "deer rifle" for more than one purpose such as predators, varmints, etc.?

Would I recommend a .270 Win. for a beginner for Elk?  The .270 Win. in the hands of a more experienced hunter is fine but for someone that doesn’t have the experience to wait for the right shot, within the right range the answer is NO.  The .270 WSM will drive the same bullet deeper(added velocity - 200 plus fps.) thus making the angle and range a little less critical.

Velocity and Energy is NOT a replacement for experience.
A bad shot with a WSM will not "wound" the Elk any more than a poorly placed shot from anything else.
Elk hunting is not for an amateur anyway, I think if you go after Elk you should already be a competent deer hunter...Would you go after a Grizzly without first having experience with a Blackie???
7mag

[goose7856]

i never said anything about him hutning for Elk!!??  :x

It will only be used for deer, coyotes, and the occasional wild dog when he is deer hunting........he has decided he wants the .270 WSM and his parents are going to buy the Tikka for him

Thanx for the help guys!!

[7magWoodsman]

i never said anything about him hutning for Elk!!??  :x

I noticed that myself.

It will only be used for deer, coyotes, and the occasional wild dog when he is deer hunting........he has decided he wants the .270 WSM and his parents are going to buy the Tikka for him

Tell him congrats for me. :grin:
Although the .270WSM would not be my personal choice, mostly(only) for the availability of(lack of) ammo, it will make a GREAT multi-purpose deer/coyote/hog rifle for him...
I wish him MANY, MANY years of educational, fun, and productive hunting and shooting experiences with his soon to be Tikka .270WSM.

You better make sure he does something out of the norm for his parents, they are hooking him up pretty good!!!

Stay Safe. Happy Shooting/Hunting.

[goose7856]

I KNO UR RIGHT ON ABOUT HIM NEEDING TO DO SOMETHING FOR HIS PARENTS!!  :-D

He is putting all faith in me.........he wants me to examine/tell the gun, scope, ammo, rings, bases, cleaning tools, and anything else he may need..........wow thats alot of responsibility for a friend!!! (But he trusts me, so im going to run with it :-) )

He said he wants a Nikon scope........somewhere between a 4-12 (or 16),  or a 3-10(in that range of mag.) .........he also wants at least a 44 mm lens (or bigger)

He has seen my new 4-12x50 Buckmaster and likes it, but i thre a few other options out there mainly concerning Monarchs.  His price can go up to $350 ( or maybe a lil more if it is that good of a scope)..........i came up with the 3.3-10x44 AO Monarch for about $325, or (b/c he likes high mag).........a 5.5-16.5x44 for $375.

But me personally for what he will be using the gun for (mainly during the day, and not much towards evening (unless he hasnt yet killed one) I recommended the 4.5-14x40 Nikon Buckmaster for $239.  In my opinion that wold be the best choice for his price range (his parents are buying the gun and he is buying the other stuff).

What do yall think??  I think a Tikka .270WSM (The synthetic model) with a black matte Nikon Buckmaster would pretty darn good, and would shoot well also!! :-)  (the main reason i think he would like the 4.5-14 is the greater magnification, [but not too much])

Another option would be a 4-16x50 Mueller Rifle scope with the Red dot.  It costs $199.  (I am thinking of getting a CZ Varmint .22lr, and would want to top it off with this scope, THAT WOULD BE ONE TREE RAT KILLIN MACHINE!! ) What do yall thnik about the Mueller scope??

Thanx ahead of time, and sry it is soooooooo long!!

[7magWoodsman]

He can get a 3x-9x 40mm Monarch for $239 gloss or $255.00 matte from www.theopticzone.com The 40mm objective will transmit about the max amount of light the human eye can use effectively. I shoot regularly at 400 yards and often out to 500 yards and I have never thought I needed anything more than my 3x-9x 40mm Nikon Monarch could give me...but I grew up with a 4x Weaver, so I guess that has a lot to do with it. :grin:

For the record, most of my shots are made with my scope set on roughly 4x or 7x. I kill groundhogs out to 400 yards with the 3x-9x so I really think it will do your buddy good for coyote and deer with the occasional hog.

But if he just has to have a "branch snagging scope" and has a price cap of $350 or a little more I would get a Bushnell Elite 4200 4x-16x 50mm but I totaly despise adjustable objective scopes for hunting not to mention the added unnecessary weight...

High zoom levels justs lets you see yourself shaking more, thus creating nervousness, thus creating worse groups.(this can be overcome, but...)

On a closing note...a 3x-9x 40mm is more practical than all other options for "most" hunting situations, you will not gain any shooting time with a 50mm scope in the late afternoon or early morning, and your effective big game hunting range will not increase with more magnification. In the end practice is the key.

Just my opinions, but I have years of experience backing them up. Hope I helped.

Stay Safe. Happy Hunting/Shooting.  

[Lawdog]

7magWoodsman,

Velocity and Energy is NOT a replacement for experience.
A bad shot with a WSM will not "wound" the Elk any more than a poorly placed shot from anything else.

I believe I said,

The .270 WSM will drive the same bullet deeper(added velocity - 200 plus fps.) thus making the angle and range a little less critical.

never said anything about a "bad shot".  An elk quartering, facing you presents a problem.  Will the bullet from a standard cartridge like a .270 Win. get through to the vital area?  Maybe it will and maybe it won't.  The same bullet out of a .270 "magnum" has a better chance of getting to the vitals.  I notice you use a 7mm "magnum".  Why not use a .280 Remington instead?  You must believe that you have a need for that "magnum".  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[Patriot_1776]

Hello all, I'm new here so please be patient as this is my first post, so I'll make it good.  (Also, this is a general overview of my opinion and a combination of what I've heard and read on these cartridge selections.)  For one thing, I have heard much about those WSM's and was interested in getting one myself.  Also, there are many pros and cons.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main con in short stubby cartridges is the same as comparing the 308 Win. to the 30-06.  These two similar points are:  Pro: Excellent velocity and energy with lighter/shorter bullets compared to cartridges of longer design./Con: But, with heavier/longer bullets, somewhat lacking in that regard because of reduced powder capacity.  When taking into consideration the "Almighty Magnums", the longer versions are, in my opinion, always more versatile.  Pro: The short/shorter actions are great for follow-up shots, and quick rechambering of a new round./Con:  With some people (like myself, I have long and somewhat large fingers) they can be devilish to clean thoroughly.  Pro: The rifles are exceptionally light and very wieldable./Con: One serious point to consider is this: The wieldability could also come from a        short barrel.  Ergo, short barrels mean reduced velocity, and increased noise with an already loud report.  I also believe that a shorter barrel can inhibit drastic reduction in performance of the cartridge.  With a magnum, I would always prefer at LEAST a 26" barrel...Rather long, huh? :eek:   But when I am purchasing a magnum, I think automatically long range, or need to get the most out of this baby as I can, etc.  When sticking to a shorter barrel version, performance can recede to non-magnum levels.  I've read that with a 300 Win Mag, pretty much any barrel shorter than 24" yields just above or is equal to 30-06 performance;  that means the performance of a .270 WSM could, I repeat could, fall close to or just above .270 Winchester levels; so my advice is stay with 24" or more.   If that statement is proven wrong, please advise.  Plus, when a wieldable gun is the intent, I've noticed that the barrel is at best a contour 2 or less; when it goes that thin, a cartridge with that capacity will heat it up really fast. I believe with Savage, it is possible to get an adjustable trigger.  Also, I have heard alot about Savage brand from a target expert/aquaintance, who further stated it is possible to get an adjustable trigger on some models.  That is enough for now I suppose, quite a long post.  But, as I said, this is all my opinion.  Always remember: The gun that your friend likes best is the one that will shoot the best.  Again, greetings from a newcomer to you all, and God bless all those who participate in the wonderful sport of target shooting, may they have safe and enjoyable experiences with their families and friends.         Patriot

P.S.  Could you also post what the website for that brand of rifle, Tikka?  Never really heard of them, and would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks.

[bigjeepman]

This is where you can view the Tikkas...


http://www.berettausa.com/

[goose7856]

a much better website for tikkas is:  www.tikka.fi

[7magWoodsman]

I notice you use a 7mm "magnum".  Why not use a .280 Remington instead?  You must believe that you have a need for that "magnum".

Lawdog,
I would change calibers today but I am a "one gun man". I choose to keep using the 7mm Rem Mag not for it's power or range but because I have used it enough that I know the trajectory like the back of my hand. Also, I can get factory loaded "Premium" Ammunition at "just about" ANY store that sells ammo, can you say the same for the .280? And before everyone says they can get this or that factory load for the .280, there is 4 Wal-Marts within 50 miles and all 4 carry Federal Premium 160gr. Nosler Partitions for the 7mag but at the same time all 4 ONLY carries Remington CORE-LOKTs for the .280. One of my close family friends uses a .280 and in order for him to get Premium Shells he either has to order them, or drive all the way to Bass Pro Shop in Nashville, Tn. He tells me all the time he wishes he would have got a 7mag for that reason, I always just smile and compliment his .280 in some way.

I "ALWAYS" feel somewhat "OVER" gunned, but never "UNDER" gunned, and I can shoot my "Big Seven" better than 99.9% of people can shoot their .243's when offhanded so why should I change?

I killed my first deer with a Remington 700 BDL 30'06 when I was 6 years old, my parents started letting me hunt with that old 30'06 "by myself" when I was 10 and I packed that gun through more places and killed more critters than most people would in a lifetime and I did it in just a matter of years, we had to have wild game for food, I didn't necessarily do it for fun, plus the coyote and fox were hard on the domestic animals...
My folks was not rich by any means, actually we were broke, but they bought me that BDL and my Dad chose the 30'06 because he "KNEW" it was enough gun for ANY animal in this world if you could put the bullet where it belonged and although it might have been a little much for a "youngin" he knew it would be the only center fire he could afford for me so he bought me the "BEST" gun in his eyes, the Remington 700 BDL 30'06...I still remember having to search for a good log to shoot from cause it was a little heavy for me to fire free-handed :lol:

I got my first 7mag when I was still a kid, much like this kid you are telling to get the .270mag...I shot a neighbors 7mm Rem Mag and fell in love, I just HAD to HAVE one of them BIG BOOMERS so I saved every cent I could get(from working in tobacco and hay,etc.)and without my Dad's approval I got my Mom to take me to the Hardware store and get me a 700 BDL 7mag. Now years later I am on my third, a Ruger M77 and it shoots like a dream, couldn't ask for a more accurate and comfortable rifle...My Dad was steaming at first and wondered why in the world would I want anything other than the old 30'06...to be truthful, I was a kid and liked the HUGE muzzle blast at dusk and the big boom people could hear 10 miles a way  like I said I was a kid...plus it didn't kick any more than the old '06 to boot(not that I would have cared about recoil)

If I could go back and still know everything I know now, I would still be using that old 30'06 that is sitting in my safe and used all them dollars for something else...If you only knew how my Dad ragged me when I first got it...(he respected me for saving the money for it, but not my decision on the actual rifle I bought, he always said "why didn't you get a .222 or something, you already had the 30'06.") Again as I have said "I was a kid."

As I said in my previous post "the "Magnum" does NOT do it for me...I do it with the "Magnum"." I could do it just as well with the old '06 that sits in my safe, just might have to "remember" how it shoots. :grin:
Small groups and tight lines to you, also.
7mag

The .270 Win. in the hands of a more experienced hunter is fine but for someone that doesn’t have the experience to wait for the right shot, within the right range the answer is NO.

So do you honestly think that a hunter "that doesn't have the experience to wait for the right shot, within the right range" should even be hunting elk anyway??or hunting period if they are accustomed to shooting outside "their" comfort zone??? Don't take it the wrong way, I have slain deer at great distances, but not one was outside of my abilities or my comfort zone, and not once did I shoot at long ranges "because" I did not have patience or the experience to wait...

Stay Safe. Happy Hunting/Shooting.  

[Lawdog]

7magWoodsman,

So do you honestly think that a hunter "that doesn't have the experience to wait for the right shot, within the right range" should even be hunting elk anyway??or hunting period if they are accustomed to shooting outside "their" comfort zone???

The first big game animal my granddaughter killed was a 220+ lb. Wild Boar just this last spring.  She wasn't old enough to hunt deer last season(age limit here for big game is 12).  My wife took her first big game animal at the age of 8.  A 400+ lb. Black Bear that was trying to get in the hog pen.  My first big game critter was a Tule Elk(deer season wasn't open yet either) at the age of 12(again that age thing).  You would be surprised at the number of hunters that started hunting big game other than deer.  Hunting elk is no different than hunting most any other big game animal.  Learn about the animal, it habits and the terrain where it lives.  Learn about the rifle and cartridge that you will be using.  Throw in a little luck and you would be surprised what will happen.  I know a 13 year old boy that took a Dessert Big Horn for his first head of big game on his first try.  I have drawn tags three times and all I have to show is three empty tags for my efforts.  Guess I may never get one but I intend to keep trying.  A deer doesn’t have to be the first big game animal one starts with.  Lawdog
 

[goose7856]

I agree..........i think alot depends upon what animals live in your area.......just my 2 cents!

[oldelkhunter]

Barrel burner? I have heard it all. How can for instance a 300 wsm with less powder same bore as a 300 win mag burn out barrels faster when it holds less powder? I just love this hearsay

[goose7856]

good point

[Patriot_1776]

Barrel burner? I have heard it all. How can for instance a 300 wsm with less powder same bore as a 300 win mag burn out barrels faster when it holds less powder? I just love this hearsay

For one thing, it is not only how much powder is burned, but also the very high operating pressures.  Believe it or not, the 300 WSM operates at a higher pressure that the 300 Win. Mag. Check it out: www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/300winma.php
          www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/300winshortmag.php

That is alot of pressure for a cartridge that holds slightly less powder than it's longer counterpart, but achieves practically the same ballistics.  And 60+ grains of powder is getting into the high marks.  Patriot

[7magWoodsman]

7magWoodsman,

So do you honestly think that a hunter "that doesn't have the experience to wait for the right shot, within the right range" should even be hunting elk anyway??or hunting period if they are accustomed to shooting outside "their" comfort zone???

The first big game animal my granddaughter killed was a 220+ lb. Wild Boar just this last spring.  She wasn't old enough to hunt deer last season(age limit here for big game is 12).  My wife took her first big game animal at the age of 8.  A 400+ lb. Black Bear that was trying to get in the hog pen.  My first big game critter was a Tule Elk(deer season wasn't open yet either) at the age of 12(again that age thing).  You would be surprised at the number of hunters that started hunting big game other than deer.  Hunting elk is no different than hunting most any other big game animal.  Learn about the animal, it habits and the terrain where it lives.  Learn about the rifle and cartridge that you will be using.  Throw in a little luck and you would be surprised what will happen.  I know a 13 year old boy that took a Dessert Big Horn for his first head of big game on his first try.  I have drawn tags three times and all I have to show is three empty tags for my efforts.  Guess I may never get one but I intend to keep trying.  A deer doesn’t have to be the first big game animal one starts with.  Lawdog
 

Lawdog,
You never answered my question and am still missing my point.
My second animal I killed was a boar(I was 6or7), but I was supervised by another...I am sure that some kid in Alaska has taking a grizzly for their first critter, maybe even with a .22LR, who knows....

I am sure your granddaughter was accompanied by a more experienced hunter, was she not? perhaps someone, as yourself, that has the experience to wait and can help her to stay calm and wait till the right shot??? The same holds true for the boy that killed the desert ram.

Your wife killing the Black Bear comes back to the instinctive ability of Survival, not hunting, different situations.

If you don't care, I will reword the same question, so maybe I can get an answer to my question:
Do you think ANYONE that has a TOTAL lack of EXPERIENCE should be HUNTING ANY ANIMAL "alone" in the wilderness, "IF" they are WILLING to shoot OUTSIDE of their COMFORT ZONE just because they MIGHT be able to hit NEAR the kill zone??
"IF" you do think they should, do you still believe the "MAGNUM" will help them kill the critter anyway?? Do you think an inexperienced shooter can keep from flinching, "read" the wind, and "judge" the distance to shoot ANY ANIMAL without the POSSIBILITY of WOUNDING the critter, even with a "MAGNUM"?
 

[MGMorden]

He doesnt want a Savage, he wants to get a good brand, and he is trusting me (his parents are buying this for him for christmas).

How is Savage not a good brand?  They almost all shoot sub-MOA out of the box, come with free-floated barrels, and most of them now come with an adjustable trigger.  I've got a Savage 110 .30-06 and I dare a trophy whitetail to step within 300 yards of me.  He'll not move again.  Rifles aren't like handguns.  There aren't very many junk guns around, and most of the ones that are are aimed at the Rambo wanna-be's (Hi-Point Carbines and such), not hunting rifles.  About the only lower-quality hunting rifles I can think of at the moment are the Rossi Single Shots, and even they aren't that bad.  The Remington 710 isn't so hot either, but it's an exception to the rule.  I guess it depends on whether or not you want a performing rifle or a showpiece though.  :?

If you're heck-bent on avoid Savage though, CZ and Howa also make good lower cost rifles, though I don't think they're available in WSM chambering at the moment.  I'm nore so sure the WSM's will be viable aside from handloading in the long term anyways.  They're too close in performance to older cartridges that are already out in the field. For deer I'd recommend staying with regular old .270 Winchester anyways.

[Patriot_1776]

Speaking of the Remington 710, even though it is cost effective, I have first hand experience with it because I do own one.  The caliber is 30-06 and I've achieved quite satisfactory groups consistently at 100yds.  Using the Barnes X bullets 165gr, and a tuned charge of mostly IMR powder, and a few Hodgdon loads, gave me 1 to 1 1/2" three shot groups w/22" barrel.  And for all you 5-shot groupers out there, I do have a 5-shot group using IMR 4064 & 180gr Ballistic Silver Tip that came to 15/16" at 100yds.  That can be useful on deer, pronghorn, and probably other species out to approx. 250yds with that load.  But I would prefer to use Barnes X for any real hunting purposes.  Either way, that is pretty darn good for such a cost effective rifle to reasonable ranges.  But in my preference, if I ever get another cost effective rifle, it probably will be the Weatherby Vanguard (I love that 1 1/2" guarantee and the target to prove it!) :money:   Patriot