Ok, What is your Diagnosis ?

[jvs]

I went to the Gun Club yesterday afternoon for a few brews, and as soon as I pulled into the parking lot, I heard a shot go off at the range, so I decided to see who was shooting, before going inside.

A friend of mine was at the bench with his 35+ yr old Remington Model 660 6.5mm Mag, with a Laminated Stock.  He was just walking back from a target when I got there, and he wasn't too happy.  He said the rifle was shooting all over the place.  Since he thinks about shooting the same way I do I asked him what he meant by 'all over the place'.  He said that up until last year the rifle was cutting holes at 100 yds, and now it opened up to about 3 or 4 inches and he hasn't changed anything the way he handles it or loads for it.

He said his trigger is light and he does all his own loading.  He did say that by now he is sure he has about 1000 rounds through the barrel.

He said he just re-bedded the gun on friday night and it made no difference.   While I was there he changed scopes, thinking it may be the scope, after many years of dedicated service hunting up in Maine and Pennsylvania.  This gun is still a near 100% firearm cosmetically.  He really takes care of his pieces.  After changing the scope, it tightened up a little to around 2 inches but it still isn't clipping holes again.

I asked him what powder and primer he uses and he told me he uses IMR 4831 with a CCI 250 and 129 gr Hornady Spire Point.  He didn't remember what his overall length is but he has it written down at home.  Nor is he sure of his headspace.

He said he just bought a new RCBS Die set on Firday, thinking his old Redding Dies may have finally worn out.   The crown doesn't look too bad, considering how old and how many rounds went thru it.  All screws are tight.

I suppose his barrel could be wearing out and he gets real crabby when he thinks about it.

If there's anything you guys can think of that we didn't, he'd appreciate it.

He thinks like I do, if he's out hunting and he sees a small shooting lane between trees, he likes to know that his bullet is close to dead on instead of acting like a pinball.  Hence the concern about a wider group.

Neither one of us likes Factory Specs when it comes to accuracy.  He knows it shot tight last year and this wider group is bugging him.

[bgjohn]

Let someone else try shooting a group or two.
JM

[jvs]

I watched him shoot 10 shots and saw him flinch once and close his eyes once.   The other 8 shots seemd to be relaxed.

Something changed.  While putting a new scope on the rifle closed the gap about 50%, something else is wrong somewhere.   He did not change the scope mount and he keeps rings fastened to his scopes.  He can get 2 shots where he likes them but 1 of 3 will be a flyer.  Before changing scopes, none of them were close to each other.  Last year it shot just fine.

Is it possible the barrel is getting 'shot-out' or could it be headspace ?

He weighs each Hornady prior to loading and he is pretty sure his powder measure is right on.

He is almost at the point where it's Gunsmith time, he did just about everything he can think of without re-crowning and such.  After he uses the new RCBS dies, he will be out of options I think.  Unless you guys can think of something he may have missed.  I suggested to him that he should change the Scope Mount, but he doesn't want to hear that.

Since it is a Laminated Stock, it should not have warped but who knows.

[792nailum]

Clean the crap out of the barrel!!!!!

[gunnut69]

First thing you have to realize is that barrels wear out gradually.  If it shot OK last year it might worsen but not just go to pieces this year.  We need to look for something that can happen over time but that when it reaches a certain point becomes a catastrophic event.  Check to see if the magfazine box is touching the action and the floorplate.  If it is the accuracy will go out the window..  Also check the platic flootplate assembly.  they can crack and cause major accuracy problems..  The crown is the next place to look. A relativily minor nick here can distroy accuracy. Be certain the action screws are NOT touching their holes in the stock.  If the recoil lug has compressed the wood a bit and 1 of those screws is touching the side of the hole there will be accuracy problems.  You can look for shiny spots at the rear of the holes..  You say he re-bedded the rifle and it didn't help.. but changing the scope did..  What did he do to the bedding??  I would look at the magazine box first. There should be a gap between the box and the bottom of it's seat in the action.  Also a recrown may be in order as the crown can change quickly and cause a major change in accuracy..

[jvs]

Gunnut,

       Believe me, he acknowledges that barrels do wear out eventually, which is why he gets a little crabby when one of his prime possessions goes bad, and with about 1000 magnum rounds thru a small bore, he is realistic.  But that Remington 660 6.5 Mag is one of his Babies.  

The only thing is that he swears that it shot tight groups last year and now it's all over the place.   As you said, it seems to be a catastrophic event, more than an eventual wearing out.  

A few weeks ago we got to talking about it and he said he free-floated the barrel some 30 years ago and he thought maybe it was time to re-do it, only because of the current problems.  Last week he removed the old glass bedding as best he could and replaced it with something else.  He said it wasn't glass and I can't for the life of me remember what product he used but he was adament that it isn't fibreglass.  That barrel is sufficiently free-floated all the way back to the receiver.

While at the range I asked him about any shiney rub marks inside the stock and he claims that there are none.  I will mention to him your knowledge about the magazine.

We have been brainstorming this thing for a few weeks now and we aren't getting anywhere, except that we have the inaccuracy cut in half,  which is why I decided to get some fresh ideas from somebody who is a little more distant from the problem.

One other question......has there been any change in the manufacturing process at Hornady that you know of ?  Such as foreign production?

It seems we have to look hard at everything, even if it seems far out.

[John Traveler]

Something that most of us don't even want to think about is that our vision changes as we get older.

Have your friend get his eyes checked by a qualified opthamologist...not an eyeglass fitter.

[Iowegan]

Half_Inch, I hate to bring bad news but the 6.5 Rem Mag is right there with the 264 Win Mag for barrel life. They have a bad reputation for throat erosion. Life expectancy is measured in hundreds of rounds, not thousands like most rifles. If your friend got a thousand rounds before the throat eroded, he was lucky. A chamber casting will confirm but I'd bet it's time for a new barrel.

Throat erosion is a very gradual process up to some magic point. That's when the flame cutting has finally progressed and all of a sudden the groups go to pot.

I had a 264 Win Mag in a Sako that did the same thing after only 600 rounds. It was a tack driver one day and a shotgun the next. My chamber casting looked like a rifle case with a bullet resembling a cotton ball.

[gunnut69]

I stand by my previous statement..  Barrel erosion can destroy the accuracy of a barrel but it won't go from cutting bullet holes to a shotgun without a bit of transition.  That said there is a definate acceleration process that occurs..  As the throat becomes enlarged the blowby around the bullet will create a jet effect and the wear will accelerate...sometimes quickly..  but that explanation doesn't tell us why you got back some of the rifle's accuracy??  I would very much question the new bedding or the crown.  Sounds like something changed all of a sudden and the bedding is what changed.. Perhaps the amterial he used didn't bond with the stock allowing it to 'float'..  in the stock.  I bought a 700 Remington once in 30-06 that was supposedly shot out.  It had been bedded with glass at some point and I decided to rebed.  A pry with a chisel and the 'bedding' came out in large chunks. It had been installed without remocing the finish from the inletting and roughing up the surface..  The glass had not been able to completely bond to the wood.   Also beware come material that would seem to be just great as bedding compound shrinks enough to cause accuracy problems.  There are many products used for stock bedding, I'd be interested in what your friend used..

[jvs]

He had the problem prior to replacing the bedding.  It was one of the things he considered after the grouping opened up since the bedding was in there for about 30 years or so.   I talked to him yesterday afternoon on the phone and he said he used something called 'Mag Steel Epoxy' as bedding instead of glass, I couldn't think of what product he said he used in my original post.

Nothing tightened up until he changed scopes, at which time he did say something about the paralex giving him a problem.  He went from over a 3 inch group to about 2 inch groups after changing scopes.  But he still thinks 2 inches is excessive because it cut holes until this year, which is why he is on a nut mission to find an answer.

Right now he is checking the Magazine and its fit.  I suggested he try another scope mount too.  Next I will relay the suggestion about Throat burn out .    

It may end up being a problem produced by use in the woods or fatigue on a part.  

Those rifles were recalled early on for firing when the safety was moved with a shell in the chamber.   However it was factory serviced.

[The Shrink]

Just a shot in the dark, but did he buy a new can of powder?  Or maybe change to 4831SC and not re-find the best amount to use?  

You may have several problems going on at once, and solving one only improves but does not solve the problem.  Borescope or chamber cast and check out the throat.  No point arguing the matter when facts can be found.  

Wayne the Shrink

There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

[gunnut69]

I'd bet he had a scope that went south and when he rebedded he altered the barrel harmonics or bedding detup such that it needs refining..  Have him check the crown also...  The rifle shot poorly so he rebedded. That didn't solve the problem so he changed scopes and the rifle shot better by about 33%.  Bet he should have changed the scopes first..  That's assuming the load was as has been said, exactly the same.  New can of powder or even a powder variation like the SC version and they can do different things.  Just another thought, had a friend once that had loaded for the same rifle for years.  It shot wonderfully(219 on a highwall action). All of a sudden it shot everywhere except in the same place twice. He tried everything over the course of a years time, only slight accuracy gains.  He found a few loaded rounds of ammo left in a box and they looked shorter.  A long story short... he had inadvertantly allowed crud to build up in the seating stem of his dies set and had seated the bullets deeper in the cases. Accuracy returned when the COL of the rounds returned to correct.  Check all loading practices.  I still believe there was a change in something that caused the rifle to suddenly go sour.  Erosion is a slower process, especially in a hunmting rifle..as opposed to a varmiter..

A note- the 6.5Mag is more of a 6.5/06 than a 264 mag, at least as far as case capacities are concerned.  The results are more in the vein of a 270 Win than the 264 mag..

[jvs]

I am positive that he has more than one problem also.  When a rifle goes out in all kinds of weather, something is bound to go bad after years of dedicated service.   For a 30+ yr old rifle to finally need some work is not unusual.

For some reason he decided to replace his die set.  He bought a new RCBS set and stopped using the Redding set.  I didn't ask why he changed but he must have an idea that something is different about the Redding set or he wouldn't have spent the money.  I asked about the length and he said it didn't change.  All he said is that he didn't use the RCBS set yet, but he will by this weekend.

His rifles all look like new, regardless on whether he uses them for hunting or at the range.  He takes good care of them, which is why he goes bonkers when something goes bad, and his Remingtons are his pride and joys.   His Remington collection is very substantial, if they made it in the last 40 years, he has it, especially the Carbines.

He won't rest until this problem is solved.   When he does find it, I'll post it here.

[KN]

I'm surprised no one has said to re-crown it. You say it doesn't look too bad considering! Any imperfection on the crown can ruin accuracy. I have had crowns that looked perfect to the naked eye that wouldn't shoot. Re-crowned and it corrected it. I would start there.  KN

[jvs]

I'm surprised no one has said to re-crown it. You say it doesn't look too bad considering! Any imperfection on the crown can ruin accuracy. I have had crowns that looked perfect to the naked eye that wouldn't shoot. Re-crowned and it corrected it. I would start there.  KN

The crown came up at least thrice for this question.

[gunnut69]

I Half-inch's first post he noted the crown looked OK. I mentioned a re-crown later on but didn't say why.  I've noticed as haave others a tendancy for Remington barrels(some sat all button rifled barrels although I've not verified this) to have crown damage.  What appears are small fractures or flaking of the rifling terminus. Popular thereory has it attributed to work hardening of the bore as it is swaged..  This leads to flaking from continuous pounding by the muzzle blast.. Worse in rifles firing cartridges with high muzzle pressures,,  the 6.5Mag in a 20 inch barrel certainly qualifies..  I've only seen these under magnification(over 5x).  In any case freshening the crown would be my first step to recover the rifles accuracy..

[jvs]

I am positive that his next concern will be if re-crowning will affect the collector value of the firearm.  It may be a small price to pay for accuracy but I'm not too sure he will want to machine the end of the barrel if it will make it just another rifle to him.  Finding another 6.5 Mag barrel for that thing will be like looking for Hens Teeth, and he knows it.  

I've tried numersous time to get him away from those Carbines but that's what he likes to collect.  To him they are a thing of beauty, besides being a tool.

He is not the type of person who would have it altered and sell it as original.

[gunnut69]

Re-crowning can be accomplished easily and with no effect on the collector value.  Only the very ends of the rifleing are affected and simply restoring that inner edge will do what needs doing.  You needn't cut the barrel off or even face the muzzle.  simply recut the rifling terminus and polish... I wouldn't even remove the barrel from the action...

[Double D]

A Remington 660 rifle that has been shot for 35 years is going to have a little or no collectors value.  It's value will come from being a shooter, getting the rifle fixed will only enhance it's value.

[gunnut69]

The rounds fired will have some effect but the scarsity of the model/caliber will definitely give it some collectors value.  wish we could say the same for a 1903 Springfield with the original wood.  It's 100+ years old, been shot several 100 thousand times and been thru 2 wars!(and a couple of police actions)..  Those are nice old rifles and taken care of should hold considerable value.

[jvs]

A Remington 660 rifle that has been shot for 35 years is going to have a little or no collectors value.  It's value will come from being a shooter, getting the rifle fixed will only enhance it's value.

I don't want to get into a off topic discussion about the value of a firearm that I don't even own, BUT, My friend has been giving the same line of bologna for a long, long time about his Carbines.  It wasn't until two weeks ago that I finally saw his pride and joy, since he doesn't get it out alot.  It was the 660  6.5 mag with a laminated stock.  He claims that those rifles can go anywhere from $900 to $1400, depending on condition.  After I saw it I checked the wholesale selling prices on the internet, which seem to come in somewhere around the low $600's to the mid $1,000's, also depending on condition.

Seems like when they first came out, everybody considered them to be junk.  Nobody liked the ugly vertical Lamination, there were problems with the safety, and the rifles used to go off all by themselves, which led to a recall.

I know that $900 to $1400 isn't alot for a rifle that hasn't be altered or modified, but it's alot more than the original selling price and it probably hasn't stopped gong up in value.  

I kind of wonder what the value of his rifles would be in another 50 years considering what they have appreciated in the last 35 years.   He uses them but they are at least 98% or better condition, which puts his rifles in the upper value range.

Ask any of the older Gunsmiths how many times somebody came into their shop with a rare or collector piece that they wanted modified or altered.  Then ask him if he felt more comfortable doing the job or slapping the guy who wanted it done.

[gunnut69]

A very few years ago we were busily chopping up American Enfields for their actions.  They could be bought for less than $50-75 and the huge actions were really quite ugly in their military form.  Also there were literally millions made for the military in WWI...  Now a decent 1917 or P14 will bring near the $300 mark and prices continue upward.  The trigger problem you refer to for the 600-660 series rifles also is endemic to the entire Remington line including the 700-721-722 series rifles.  They use an extra part in their trigger mechanisms and if damaged or improperly maintained they can fire when the safety is moved to the off position as it must be to open the bolt for unloading.  The modification made to correct the situtation is the removal of the bolt lock. This allowsd the bolt to be manipulated and the chamber emptied with the safety remaining in the locked position..  thus even if the safety suffers a failure the rifle should not fire...assuming of course the operator does his part. The 660 series rifles in the magnum calibers were not a hot seller but the 350 versions were much sought after in the northlands for their compactness, light weight and major power levels.  They were recently re-introduced, sort of,
with Remingtons introduction of the 673 GuideGun.  I would bet the 6.5 Mag has a very low production amount and in decent condition would be fairly rare.  It would indeed have a collector value as well as value as a shooter.. I certainly hope your friend can find the problem with his 660.

[jvs]

The 660 series rifles in the magnum calibers were not a hot seller but the 350 versions were much sought after in the northlands for their compactness, light weight and major power levels.  They were recently re-introduced, sort of,  with Remingtons introduction of the 673 GuideGun.  I would bet the 6.5 Mag has a very low production amount and in decent condition would be fairly rare.  It would indeed have a collector value as well as value as a shooter.. I certainly hope your friend can find the problem with his 660.

This is exactly what my friend says about the 660, and some of the 600 Models.  He claims a 350 Mag has recently sold in the midwest for $1400 in NIB condition.  

Since his idea of a dream gun is the Remington Carbines, he has more than one of each caliber that he bought new.  He has also searched gunshows for years, seeking those rifles.  Only now is it really paying off.

His search for the problem with his 6.5 mag has just started.  He will proceed in a slow and deliberate manner until he finds the problem.  It will only be a matter of time.

[Double D]

The600/660's come up on the auction sites all the time starting at 700 and up and don't sell. Here's what I found in the past 90 days

There was a 6.5 one on Gunbroker that was posted at starting bid .01 and a reserve price that was not met with a high bid of $850. It was relisted  with a buy now of $850 was bought buy the high bidder from the previous auction. Sounds like one of those negotiated deals they allow if the reserve isn't met.  I'd call that premium price for a shooter, not collector price.

Plenty of .350's for sale from $700 up no bids.

Auction arms had a 6.5  that had a starting bid of $325 and got one bid of $400 and it had 280 rounds of brass, reloading dies and scope base.

FWIW the collector in the series of rifles is the .223

We got astray on the collector issue, I suppose it is all academic.  Do you collect the Remington carbines and do you have a 660 6.5 and can you find one NIB?  


As to the problem with this gun not shooting...Gunnut69 wasn't there some issue with the rear tang/guard screw being to small in the 600/660 magnums.  Sseems to me that there were all kinds cures being bandied about.  Mauser style pillars and installing larger tang screws?

[jvs]

 Do you collect the Remington carbines and do you have a 660 6.5 and can you find one NIB?  

I have almost no interest at all in the Remington Carbines, besides trying to help a friend of mine figure out why his went out of tune.

I have also checked the web auction sites for the 660 and 600 Carbines.  If I saw the same 6.5 mag that you did for $325, I thought it was a refinished piece that somebody did a real terrible job with.    It looked way too shiney and the edges were rounded.  Others look beat up.  Obviously a 'buyer beware' firearm.

My interest is in some of the older Savage 340's from the 60's and any of  the Marlin Bolt Actions.  They aren't expensive but they shoot great.  Most of the time I can't be bothered with Remingtons, Rugers, Winchesters etc., although I do have at least one of each.

[Hooker]

Half inch
I had a problem similar to this I tried every thing. Finally I decided it was throat erosion checked the OAL of chamber and found bullets were off the rifling .060  they had original been .010. I increased the COAL  and the rifle came back around, but it was not long before I had to rebarrel.

Pat

[gunnut69]

For what it's worth, firearms for which there exists a collector market and that were made in small quantitiies or for limited time frames will always bring more money than those for which there is no collector base.  The 600-660 series rifles did have a problem with the trigger guard.  It was a synthetic that over time broke down(likely from solvents and such).  The rear screw was small and simply pulled thru it's hole when the guard was sufficiently damaged..  Steel guards were available and I believe still are that eliminated the problem(and the origianl guard).  There is even collector interest in some models of Remingtons ubiquitous M760. Specifically those in unusual calibers such as the 223.

[jvs]

For what it's worth, firearms for which there exists a collector market and that were made in small quantitiies or for limited time frames will always bring more money than those for which there is no collector base.  The 600-660 series rifles did have a problem with the trigger guard.  It was a synthetic that over time broke down(likely from solvents and such).  The rear screw was small and simply pulled thru it's hole when the guard was sufficiently damaged..  Steel guards were available and I believe still are that eliminated the problem(and the origianl guard).  There is even collector interest in some models of Remingtons ubiquitous M760. Specifically those in unusual calibers such as the 223.

I agree with you concerning the small quantities and limited production time for alot of collectibles.  I also think there were two other things that contributed to the rise in popularity of the 660 and 600 into the collector markets.   One was that they didn't sell well because of bad production/design practices for which they got alot of bad press.  And two, the rapid rise in popularity in the 90's of carbines.  

Now after all that hyperbole of Carbine Madness, alot of written material points to a longer barrel for a more complete powder burn again.   It's almost like skirt length.  Who woulda guessed.  

One of the reasons I stick with standard calibers is because I don't want to get involved in the Neurosis every 15 years.   It might mean I won't own a 350 mag or a 7mm-08, but when I fire my .30-06 or .308...dead is dead, and that extra 150 fps or a little extra kick won't mean a darn thing.  And I do think the 7mm-08 will be around for a long time to come.

I'm also positive that in another few years the 600 and 660 will appreciated again.  Only because of the constant search for the "Perfect Rifle".   What would our Ancestors say about this constant search,  I'd bet they'd think we've gone mad.

[Steve P]

OK....here are some things to think about.

Ammo?  Using same ammo? or same load, loaded on different day?  Your reloads could be different than what was used before.  OAL, humidity and powder/primers effected.  Same bullet, prmier, powder or a different batch?  Makes a big difference....!!

Weather.  hot summer vs cooler fall.  Stock swell a little?  pressure on the barrel?  Harmonics change?  Try putting a shim in the front of the stock between barrel and stock forearm.  About a 4lb pressure up on the barrel will sometimes settle them down.  If barrel floated enough to slide a new dollar bull full length, put a plastic shim about thickness of milk/butter/cottage cheese container or even up to thickness of credit card.  Put in the shim, tighten screws, shoot 3-4 shots.  any change?  add another shim.  try again.  any change?  Good way to rule out barrel harmonics and float job.  

The new scope helped, that may be due to the quality difference in the scopes.  OR it may be due to the stresses in the scope base and rings.  You could remove and reinstall.  Use fingernail polish or Loctite 222 to lock those screws when seated.  Maybe use a thin strip of 1200 grit paper in the bottom half of rings to hold the scope in the rings and rule out any movement of the scope in the rings.  

Also...as posted before....clean clean clean.  Clean it all.  Shoot shots 5 minutes apart and see where they hit after cleaning.  First 2-3 shots may be opening up the group.  After a little fouling, the next 7-8 should be pretty indicative of how the gun will shoot.   Takes an hour to get a group, but sure tells a lot.

Keep us posted.  Any changes found?
Good luck,

Steve  

[gunnut69]

Just something I remembered..  Had a friend with a 30-06 did a very similar thing.  The problem was found to be a set back recoil lug(just a tiny bit) that was allowing the screws to contact the stock on the inside of their thru holes.  The rifle literally seemed to spray bullets.  Check the holes where the action screws pass thru the stock for rub marks or shiney spots where there's been contact.. There should be none..