Shilo vs C. Sharps?

[catblaster.375]

I am probably going to purchase my first Sharps after I sell a few guns that I don't use. I have always been very interested by the rifles(I love the big bores), especially after watching a 1,000 yard buffalo shilouette match. Quigly Down Under is also my favorite movie. I have already decided to get either a 50-90(Shilo) or much more preferably a 50-140(C. Sharps). Please don't try to talk me out of the caliber because I already have a 1895 cowboy 45/70 and I feel that it kicks about like a 12 gauge even with it's 7 pound weight and 500grainers-not bad at all, I can shoot it all day. I also shoot a .375 H&H w/heavy loads without a problem. So I bet I can handle either BLACK POWDER .50. I found a place(BuffaloArms.com) where I can pick up a couple boxes of loaded ammo before I get reloading under my feet. But my question to you guys is: is there much of a quality difference between a C. Sharps and a Shilo? Which would you get(disregard caliber)? Also how long will it take after I order my rifle until I receive it(approx)? And also do I have to have it shipped to a FFL? Thanks guys.

[John Traveler]

YES,

To receive a modern firearm (unless you are an FFL holder) the manufacturer must ship it to an FFL holder local to you, and do the paperwork before transfer to you.

[Ray Newman]

I suggest that you also post this thread/question on the:

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

On the “General Discussion “ board. I’m sure you’ll get a few responses.

As for myself, my dealings w/ the owner of C. Sharps, John S., were less than satisfactory….

[Lead pot]

I'm the proud owner of two Shilohs now. I stoped at "C" Sharp and looked at the C Sharps, I thought it looked good, but I had a feeling while asking John questions I was annoying him, so I put the rifle back on the rack and left.

I went to Shiloh and was made welcome by Lucinda, she took me through the plant and showed me how that rifle is build step by step.

But most important when I picked up one of those rifles and looked at that wood and quality of the metal inlay there was no flaw to be seen. The wood has excellent figure, and most important thing to me is Shiloh stands behind there rifle 100%--I mean 100%.

I'm in the prosses now ordering my third rifle.

catblaster-- I would highly sagest you find a guy that has a .50-140 and ask him to let you shoot it. I went through that motcho caliber when I was young and fullisch, that 140 is not much fun to shoot unless you get a 18 or 20 lb rifle.

A long time ago when Wolfgang had Shiloh I waited 5- 1/2 years for a Shiloh,I wanted a 140 but Wolf talked me out of it,he let me shoot one and I thanked him and got a .45 2.4.

Kurt

[HWooldridge]

I have a Shiloh and it is a great rifle.  Like you, I am not recoil sensitive but I wear a PAST shield when I shoot this one in a session.  Something about 500 gr of bullet and 70 gr of BP makes a 10 lb rifle buck enough to hurt my shoulder.  A 50-90 will also recoil pretty good but the 50-140 is a real beast.

[Ray Newman]

Cat Blaster: heed Lead Pot's advice.

I once was tempted to buy a .50-140 from a Fellow Shooter. The only problem was that it only shot well w/ an approx. 650 grn bullet & a stout charge. Very difficult to handle off hand & even worse from the cross stciks. Since no one would buy it, he finally ahd it re-barrled to a more tolerable caliber.

[Ray Newman]

I think you should also pose the question as to your caliber choice over on the Shilo board:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php

Based on your previous posts, it doesn’t sound like you have ever loaded a BP cartridge. I shoot & reload for BPCRs in .577-450 Martini, .50-70 Gov’t., .32-40, .40-65, 45-2.1” (AKA .45-70), .45-2.4” (AKA .45-90), & the .45- 2 7/8” (AKA .45-110).

There are two things that I’ve learned over the years reloading these cartridges: (1) BP reloading isn’t anywhere as simple as reloading for Nitro/White Powder (AKA smokeless); (2) the bigger the case, the more difficult it is to attain accuracy for the caliber.

As an aside, a large capacity BP case, esp. the .50-140,  unless it is in a heavy rifle will stomp the beejezus out of you. My .45-110 Sharps Borchardt weighs almost 14#.  W/ a 100 grn BP load & 550 grn lead bullet is a hand full, esp. from the prone position….

Now when you start to reload your hulls w/ BP & cast bullets, the challenges multiply….

[Redhawk1]

There is a lot a great information you received here from to guys that have posted here. I also have a Shiloh Sharps. I would not consider ordering one from anyone but Shiloh Sharps. There is a 8 month waiting time, but if they have on made in the shop on the rack, you will be able to get it right away. Your FFL will have to send them a copy of his FFL prior to them sending the rifle. The people at Shiloh Sharps are very good to deal with and they are extremely helpful. Lucinda is the person I dealt with. The gun is a work of art and shoot extremely accurate. Mine is a 45-70 and is a pleasure to shoot. I had considered the 50-90 but decided to start with a round that was very easy to get all the supplies for at a reasonable price. If you plan to shoot your rifle a lot, like I do, you won't do it with those big 50-90 or 50-140  :eek:. If you want to step up out of the 45-70 you may want to consider the 45-90 or 45-110.  The 45-110 will give you a good recoil.  :grin: I also shoot a lot of big bore smokeless guns, but I don't shoot them much or that often. Recoil takes the fun out of a day of shooting in my opinion. But if you are dead set on getting a 50-90 or 50-140. I hope you enjoy it.  Also go the the Shiloh site and you will get a wealth of knowledge there. http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php

Reloading with black powder is a different animal than smokeless. It is more of mathematics. Knowing  how much space you have in the case, how much powder and the thickness of the wads, how much compression to use and then having enough room to fit your bullet in the case properly and have it chamber correctly in your gun. Reloading with black powder is easy once you have it all written down. I have formulas written down for all the different kinds and different weights of bullets I shoot.  Paper patch is also different reloading steps the plain grease grove bullets.

Good luck in your quest and keep us informed.  

[dlemaster]

Redhawk1 nice to see you on this forum!

catblaster.375
My wife bought a C. Sharps 1874 model in .45-2 7/8" for our anniversary. About 10 years ago, and waited 4 1/2 years for delivery.
34" #1 Heavy barrel with AAA Fancy wood. pewter tip, and deluxe mid-range rear sight, front sight with inserts and spirit level. I love it, it shoots great. I will say that when I called the company for some information on adding upgrades to the original order, I thought I was treated a little cool considering my wife had just plunked down $1900.00, I wasn't mistreated, just cool. But I have no problem with the fit and finish, I see very little difference in quality between the Shiloh's and C. Sharps rifles. But customer service is something to consider especially with the cost of a premium rifle.
I picked up a lot of useful information lurking around the Shiloh and Goex sights from a couple of guys who shoot the big ones over there, in particular a guy named Kenny Wasserburger who shoots the .45-2 7/8".
I think when I buy another Sharps it will be a Shiloh just because of all the good things I've read and heard about the owners.
If you would like more info on the C. Sharps, please let me know.
Regards, Dave

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1 nice to see you on this forum!

catblaster.375
My wife bought a C. Sharps 1874 model in .45-2 7/8" for our anniversary. About 10 years ago, and waited 4 1/2 years for delivery.
34" #1 Heavy barrel with AAA Fancy wood. pewter tip, and deluxe mid-range rear sight, front sight with inserts and spirit level. I love it, it shoots great. I will say that when I called the company for some information on adding upgrades to the original order, I thought I was treated a little cool considering my wife had just plunked down $1900.00, I wasn't mistreated, just cool. But I have no problem with the fit and finish, I see very little difference in quality between the Shiloh's and C. Sharps rifles. But customer service is something to consider especially with the cost of a premium rifle.
I picked up a lot of useful information lurking around the Shiloh and Goex sights from a couple of guys who shoot the big ones over there, in particular a guy named Kenny Wasserburger who shoots the .45-2 7/8".
I think when I buy another Sharps it will be a Shiloh just because of all the good things I've read and heard about the owners.
If you would like more info on the C. Sharps, please let me know.
Regards, Dave

Dave, I try to go everywhere. I shot so many different kind of guns I have to go to different areas . But I tell you, I went through a lot of research before I bought my Shiloh Sharps. I looked at them all and got on different web sites and asked a lot of questions. I got very good information on the Shiloh Sharps board. The shooter there are very knowledgable and helpful. Mark will also help you. When you have a good experience with a gun maker it helps, they also believe in service after the sale. My next Shiloh Sharps is going to be either the 45-90 or the 45-110. I don't think I want to punish myself with anything bigger. I like to enjoy a day of shooting not an hour of pain.  

[Ray Newman]

Redhawk: I’ll vouch for the practicality of the .45-2.4” It has more than enough steam for 1000 yd shooting, but it may be a bit overkill, esp. in a lighter/carry rifle for silhouettes. While the .45-2.1” is a great cartridge, I feel the .45-2.4” is the great all-around BP .45 cartridge!

From my experience, it is a very versatile caliber loaded either w/ BP or Nitro/White Powder (AKA smokeless) as the case is not that cavernous so as to loose the powder charge. I‘d say it is ‘bout the longest .45 BP case that I‘d care to load w/  Nitro/White powder.

I also have a Sharps-Borchardt in .45- 2 7/8” (AKA .45-110). Even thought it is almost a 14# rifle, when loaded w/ a 100 grn BP & 545 grn Paul John Creedmoor bullet, it does get your attention when it is touched off. Under certain condition, the lube can fail. I’ve had to happen to me. On hot day, w/ not enough time in between shots or not cleaning in-between shots, the lube will fail in the Borchardt’s 34” barrel. Of course this is my fault, not really the rifle’s or the load. Since I don’t shoot competition anymore, I usually wipe between shots. (I also really need to get serious & develop a “gilt-edge” accuracy load for my rifles.)

Both calibers will knock down anything on 4 legs (or 2 depending on the circumstances) in No. America.

If you go w/ a .45- 27/8" definitely get the heaviest rifle for the intended purpose. Too heavy a rifle will be cumbersome afield. If shooting @ paper targets, I'd go w/ the LR BPCR weight limit.
 
I’ve heard it said that the .45- 27/8” has a steep learning curve, esp if you’re a tyro BP shooter. I can readily believe it. If you are more experienced, the curve is not as steep, but it is still there. …

[Redhawk1]

Ray Newman, I think you are right. I will most likely get the 45-90. I just want to be able to get a little more black powder in the case and the 45-70, I just can't get enough for my liking.  :-)  I want something I can use on any Elk. I know the 45-70 will work, but I want that extra KO power of the 45-90.

[HWooldridge]

This is probably blasphemy but I shoot duplex loads in my 45-70.  I use 5-7 grains of any fast to medium smokeless with 60 gr of FFg Goex on top.  This is compressed .100 with a card wad on top and the bullet finger seated.  I have shot 45-90's owned by others and the duplex loads "feel" the same but I haven't done any chronograph work so don't really know what velocities are.

[Redhawk1]

This is probably blasphemy but I shoot duplex loads in my 45-70.  I use 5-7 grains of any fast to medium smokeless with 60 gr of FFg Goex on top.  This is compressed .100 with a card wad on top and the bullet finger seated.  I have shot 45-90's owned by others and the duplex loads "feel" the same but I haven't done any chronograph work so don't really know what velocities are.

We will let it slide.   . I did shoot 5 rounds of 45-70 with smokeless in my Shiloh Sharps, before I got all my reloading supplies for black powder reloading, and load up my black powder cartridges. So my Sharps has been violated.  :oops:  I just had to see how the gun shot.  :oops:

[dlemaster]

Redhawk1
Your not going to back off a .45/110 are you?? I thought with your signature about making big holes you would think bigger is better
I to used jacketed bullets and the other powder because C. Sharps and Badger Barrels recommended it to break in my barrel

Ray Newman
I think most of the trouble people were having with the .45-2 7/8" are solved by going to Goex 1F or an equivalent. You get a cleaner burn and a noticeable reduction in recoil.
My rifle weighs in at a little over 13lbs and the switch from 2F to 1F reduced recoil to the point I can shoot for several hours, I just have to worry about blow tubing to keep the fouling soft
According to the oldtimers at shooting the .45/110 changing to 1F greatly shortens the learning curve.
Regards, Dave

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1
Your not going to back off a .45/110 are you?? I thought with your signature about making big holes you would think bigger is better
I to used jacketed bullets and the other powder because C. Sharps and Badger Barrels recommended it to break in my barrel

Ray Newman
I think most of the trouble people were having with the .45-2 7/8" are solved by going to Goex 1F or an equivalent. You get a cleaner burn and a noticeable reduction in recoil.
My rifle weighs in at a little over 13lbs and the switch from 2F to 1F reduced recoil to the point I can shoot for several hours, I just have to worry about blow tubing to keep the fouling soft
According to the oldtimers at shooting the .45/110 changing to 1F greatly shortens the learning curve.
Regards, Dave

Dave I just want a round that will hold a little more powder than the 45-70. I think I had my fill of big heavy kicking guns after I got my 50BMG.  I shot it so much, It took the fun out of the big bore's. I am getting older and the recoil factor is not fun any more. But I still like to shoot my 500MAG in my BFR.       I still like the big hole, but without all the punishment to me. LOL  

[Ray Newman]

dlemaster: I think you're correct about Fg. I’ve been following the .45-2 7/8" threads for about the last 18-24 months & the more successful shooters are loading it, w/ a few still using the Swiss powder or some other granulation.

In the past, I think Fg was hard to find as most dealers that I knew only stocked FFg, FFFg or cartridge. My former local dealers said Fg was a “hard sell” & since he was limited to 25# of BP he usually stocked what sold the quickest.

[dlemaster]

Redhawk1
I have never seen a 50BMG fired, but I sure would like to. I've seen pictures those rifles  and even with the huge muzzle brakes they look like they would still cross you eyes when you fired it.

Ray
About 30 years ago I was in a Civil War reenactment group and a guy sold me 3 cans of 1F powder because he couldn't sell it. I had never even seen 1F before. I got this stuff for $2.50 a can and thats when black powder sold for about $6.00 a can.
The only people shooting 1F used it in cannon. I thought that if I could get it to shoot in my Harper's Ferry Model 1855 Rifle Musket it would make cheap blanks for reenacting, and if it didn't I could give to one of the Artillery units. It worked great in my Rifle Musket so I shot it up.
Around here there were only 2 places that I know of that you could buy black powder. One of the gun shops that used to carry it, the owner was brutally murdered in his shop last febuary by a couple punkassed thugs that came into rob him, but he managed to wing one of them and they were quickly caught. I sure miss him.
When I asked the other store about 1F they just raised their eye brows.
Looks like I'm going to have to break down and buy a case of black powder.
Regards, Dave

[PowderFlask2]

dlemaster

want to see a 50 shot

go here

http://www.mitchellsales.com/rifles/blackarrow/index.htm

Takes a while to load the video but its pretty neat

[dlemaster]

PowderFlask2
Thanks for the link!!
Doesn't look like recoil is quite as bad as I thought, but still pretty stiff.
Excellent video. Thanks again
Dave

[wolfie6929]

i am going to put in my plug for shiloh.their customer service is incredible my stock shifted some that made a small gap in the wood to metal fit after i had it for 5 years they not only fixed it payed the shipping and sent it back in a new hard case for me to keep. :-) don't get any better than that.
as for your choice of caliber i would lean toward 50-90 just because of the availability of brass and cost.my self i shoot 45 2 7/8 good luck

[Bridger]

While I prefer Shiloh, I came across a C Sharps .50-140 today at a local gun store. If anyone truly wants one of these beasts this one looked as new, had decent wood on it, pewter nose tip and seemed priced to sell at a little less than $1700. Rusk Gun Shop in Madison Wisconsin has it. I do not believe shoulder surgery was included in the price.

[wolfie6929]

Ouch!!!! :shock: