Author Topic: How stuck are your cases. (Read 1652 times)

aulrich · « **on:** July 19, 2004, 10:50:02 AM »

I am still in the process of getting my ultra 243 working and I have done a chamber polish but I am still getting some stuck cases. I have also tried reducing the load well off of max(my last load was on the published minimum). But One thing I have noticed is that the cases are not stuck by very much. It seems a light tap with a cleaning rod and it is out (most of the time all I have to do is let the mostly inserted cleaning rod drop) .

So my question is when you get a stuck case how stuck is it. And with that are there other factors that can contribute to a stuck case, such as case trim lenght or not getting all of the outer burr on a trimmed case off.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2004, 10:59:04 AM »

This may not help much as I am shooting factory ammo, but the only stuck case I've had in my .243 UV is from not wiping the chamber well after cleaning during break in, and it was stuck just enough that it needed a little tap with the rod, FWIW. I did the chamber polish, also, before I even fired the first shot cuz of the stuck case history of rimless cases. Tim

Wlscott · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2004, 11:05:50 AM »

Most of the "stuck case problems" that I have heard of or seen required just a slight tap of a rod to free the case from the chamber. If I haven't cleaned the chamber on my Ultra .223, cases will stick, and depending on how dirty the chamber is, sometimes it takes a little more of a tap to get the case out. I usually carry a 1/4" drill bit with me when I am hunting coyotes, and just dropping it down the bore will free the case.

The worst one I have ever heard of was an Ultra in .308. This was one of the older Ultra's that had a green laminate stock and a nickle barrel. That gun would stick cases so bad that you had to hit the rod with a hammer.

That gun went back to the factory several times.

aulrich · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2004, 12:09:07 PM »

The drill bit idea is slick, my next question was going to be "what are the field friendly methods for dislodging cases" I'd rather rid myself of stuck cases but that seems to be a good compromise.

I had also have noticed that after a cleaning I had one or two right away but then went away for a while. But his was after I thought I had cleaned the chamber. What is the proper procedure for swabbing the chamber.

Now taking the risk of being branded a bone head what if a guy was to not clean the resize lube (lyman spray) of his cases before using them. I am starting to think that it would behave like a dirty chamber.

BTW I am open to any case degreasing method other than a tumbler :oops:

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:17:33 PM »

i had a 30/06 that stuck the cases at the worst time i had a milatary 4 pce rod each section of rod was 6 in. i put 2 section together and put one of the 12 in. sections each side of the top of the forearm and put a girls hair rubber band on each end 2 keep from moving or rataling. i usally only needed to drop 1 of the setion to remove case but i always had the other if i needed to push it out

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:09:53 PM »

Wlscott, how do you get that 1/4" drill bit to fall through the .223 barrel?....<><.... :?

Big Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:13:02 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret

Wlscott, how do you get that 1/4" drill bit to fall through the .223 barrel?....<><.... :?

I thought the same thing when I read it, but come on, I'm sure he meant 1/8"!

Don

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:25:34 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret

Wlscott, how do you get that 1/4" drill bit to fall through the .223 barrel?....<><.... :?

Nah, he meant a drill bit *for* a 1/4" drill !! :wink:

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:30:19 PM »

If anyone is interested, I have a few very slick self storing cleaning rods for sale. I ain't gonna bore everybody with a sales pitch, but they are 8-10" long stored in their own handle. Email me if you are interested.

I tend to size and decap in big batches. Easiest way to get the lube off is just to boil them in soapy water and store them mouth down for a few days or weeks or months. When I get ready to load, I already have that step done.

Wlscott · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2004, 03:31:47 AM »

Quote

Wlscott, how do you get that 1/4" drill bit to fall through the .223 barrel?....<><....

Well, you have to push REALLY hard......

Actually I meant 1/8", not 1/4" :eek:

Quote

I had also have noticed that after a cleaning I had one or two right away but then went away for a while. But his was after I thought I had cleaned the chamber. What is the proper procedure for swabbing the chamber.

You are probably leaving oil or solvent in the chamber. I use a .30 cal bore swab to dry all of the oil/solvent out of the chamber before I go hunting/shooting. I also use carb cleaner or any of the high pressure degreaser/gun cleaners to clean it out.

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2004, 05:18:37 PM »

Stuck cases what a pain and one of the most annoying features of the H&R rifles. It is created by a few items. A dirty chamber is one. The chamber becomes dirty by oversize chambers and allowing powder gases and carbon between the case and the chamber walls. My chamber at the shoulder is very much bigger than what the design calls for.

I had to polish 0.006" out of the sizing die so I did not kill the brass by working it .008" every time I load it. Since the duration of the pressure is only a fraction of a millisecond a case will not always stretch that much resulting in lot of blow by.

The ejector is a very poor design since it has no mechanical push rod to move the case about 1/8-1/4" before the ejector is triggered. Most shot guns and SS rifles have that feature.

Some European SS guns have a small notch in the chamber end where you can take your jack knife or a small screw driver to pry out the empty case. I have thought about doing just that.

I just loaded another 18 rounds for testing, this is the 8th time these 25-06 cases have been loaded. All case lube has been removed with methyl hydrate and then I wiped them with dry Moly. They are now very slick but have no build up only a slight change of color.

This is sort of a dirty job and your hands get black, not something you should have to do.

I will see if that solves the sticky case trouble. Yes I have polished the chamber with Alosheen and a wood dowel wrapped with cotton using drill power.

I have allso done something to the recess where the latch engages and have installed a stronger latch spring and reduced the hole depth by .064 where the spring fits in. I hope this will keept the latch from moving and consequently stretching the brass.

I think a big 50 cal brass brush on a handle should keep the chamber clean when cases start to stick?

?

I am beginig to think that the whole idea of the Handi in 25-06 is an excerize of futility. Fred M.

aulrich · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2004, 12:47:00 PM »

The notch ideas sounds neat, could the notch be made big enough to fit a bullet tip. if it could be done without messing up safety or function. I have to admit that the thought of taking a dremel tool to my gun is a little intimidating.

Although I would have a hard time proving it I have a feeling that my chamber is tight. Resized and trimmed brass seem to protrude slightly out of the chamber. I'll need to try some factory rounds just to confirm.

I redid the chamber polish but this time with a 50 cal bore swab and flitz last time I used the once fired case and I was fairly timid with the application. Not that I went nuts but now it shines.

unfortunately the lower pressure loads stuck too but the upside is that it is now showing some signs of decent accuracy. That was until the scope base came loose (or I had just noticed... hmm that was a factor in the poor accuracy) .

I since bedded the scope base. I ended right under my forward scope ring I be shooting again next week and I will post my results.

Longcruise · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2004, 02:31:55 PM »

Hey, that drill bit idea is great :grin:

I'm gonna carry a piece of 3/16" brass rod instead though. Drill bits are pretty hard and might mare my pristine .223 3moa barrel. :-D

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2004, 06:17:55 PM »

aulrich.
I have not fired the last batch of reloads, nor have I installed the notch yet which is not really a big deal and easily done with a needle file.
The notch needs only to be deep enough to get under the rim about 1/8" wide and perhaps 1/16" deep and a short slope.

This notch should be on the right side for a right handed shooter. This will not interfere with anything. It will be a similar notch as the the ejector and 90 deg apart. No a bullet tip should not be used to pry out a case. Some thing small like a sharpened nail would do. A Swiss army knife has all the tools you need for the extraction only a bit help is needed until the ejector takes over.

Theoretically the action should not close if the case is projecting from the chamber. But it will because of the geometry of the latch and the latch- recess in the chamber face. These fit together like the proverbial square peg in a round hole.

Because the latch is radiused and the recess is straight, so the latch makes contact at the radius tangent only, hence it can seat in multible positions and can slide downwards on the slope of the recess. What makes it worse is that the latch does not engage to the full thickness.
That was the case on my 25-06.

When the latch slides down from the uplift force it opens the standing breach, and when that happens the case will stretch. I have been able to insert a feeler gage as much as .003" after firing a shell and the action will still close on the .003" projection.

I hope I have fixed this problem and will report on how I did it.

You will have to make sure that there is no projection past the chamber.
This means that the shoulder needs to be set back until the base of the case is flush with the end of the chamber. I have been doing this with each reload. Now with the 8th reload I start checking the case walls for thinning in front of the base. Sofar so good.
Fred M.

Mohawk · « **Reply #14 on:** August 04, 2004, 12:44:49 PM »

On my first hog hunt I shot a 90 lb boar with my Topper 58 12ga single shot and a Winchester 1oz foster slug. Slug hit low destroying the leg but missed the heart by about 1/2 in. When I approached for the followup shot I noticed my shotshell case had stuck in the chamber with a wounded hog staring at me. :eek: I closed the breach and then quickly reopened the chamber and the shell ejected. WHEW!!!!! Hog then charged on three legs and my second slug hit him between the eyes. This was my only experience with a stuck case.......and a charging wounded hog while being armed with a single shot gun.

Longcruise · « **Reply #15 on:** August 04, 2004, 04:18:27 PM »

Quote

I closed the breach and then quickly reopened the chamber and the shell ejected. WHEW!!!!! Hog then charged on three legs and my second slug hit him between the eyes. This was my only experience with a stuck case.......and a charging wounded hog while being armed with a single shot gun.

This is one of the reasons a sticky chambered nef will never accompany me on any big game hunt be it dangerous game or not. If it's inclined to come at you like a hog, a stuck case is unacceptable. If a follow up shot is needed on any large animal then a stuck case is unacceptable then too.

One of them 100 pounders came at one of my hunting buddies on our last hog safari. He was completely surprised. Came up on the hog at about 40 yards while it was lounging under a large tree. he and the hog saw each other at the same time and the hog just got up and started running at him :shock: The beast was dispatched quickly with one shot, but a miss would have left him puckering big time even with the bolt '06 he carried. A stuck case in a single shot would have transformed his firearm into a club :grin:

Wlscott · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2004, 03:23:22 AM »

Quote

A stuck case in a single shot would have transformed his firearm into a club

Hunt'n hogs with a club......

Now THAT'S hog hunting :eek:

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2004, 12:10:30 PM »

August 5, 2004
25-06 Ultra loads. More polishing was done in chamber. All cases were cleaned with alcohol and wiped with dry Moly. 18 cases RWS 8th use and 6 new Winchester cases 1rst use were loaded.

RWS cases with Fed Match primers and Winchester cases with Rem 9-1/2 primers. 18 RWS cases were loaded with 117gr Sierra Pro Hunter Bullets.
Six sets of three from 53gr to 58gr H1000

Three Winchester cases were loaded with 59gr H1000 and 100gr Hornady the other three cases were loaded with 60gr of H1000 and 85gr Fowler Match bullets. As before the Fowler bullets produced the best group at 1-1/16 but not as good as a previous load which had the bullet loaded into the lands by 10 thou and grouped 5/8.

RWS cases were full sized in my modified die without expander plug. Winchester cases were used as is but all cases were outside neck reamed to about 75% of circumference.

Started again with 53gr of H1000 @2644ft and 1-7/8 3shot group and load #6 of 58gr H1000 gave 2932Ave for 3 shots and a 1-9/16 group.

57g and 58gr each had one stuck case each, which were easily dislodged with a small screwdriver in the newly installed notch in the side of the chamber end.

The six cartridges were the last to be fired in the H1000 sequence with the 117gr bullets. The 58gr load with 117 is the limit for unstuck cases and the chamber needs to be clean.

The 100gr and the 85gr loads with the new cases ejected without a hitch. These two loads are about as good as can be expected. The 58gr Load with 117gr bullets is not great but 1-1/2" is not too bad for a hunting load even out to 400 yards on deer and Antelope but it would be stretching the accuracy potential.

The bottom of the sloped latch recess was peened up to just clear the latch. The latch and recess was then bedded in closed position with Steel bed to produce a concave seat for the radiused latch. This will eliminate most of the latch sliding movement. There are still vertical groups but non-did exceed 1-7/8".

About 150 experimental rounds have been fired in this rifle to get it at the present not so great accuracy and 83% ejection results. A stronger ejector spring would perhaps improve on the ejection?

With the notch in the end of the chamber a stuck case can be popped out with a small flat pointed tool, carried in your pocket while hunting non-dangerous game or target shooting.

A polished and clean chamber with Moly wiped cases will eliminate most stuck cases.
If the rifle and its system was put together with a little more care and moxie it could be pretty good.
I can see where the smaller base and the lower pressure calibers are preferable. End of the 25-06 Holy Grail. Fred M

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2004, 01:42:00 PM »

Quote from: Wlscott

Hunt'n hogs with a club......

Now THAT'S hog hunting :eek:

How about a 45-70 Handi with a bayonet mount brazed to the barrel?

They hunt hogs with spears, don't they?

Wlscott · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2004, 01:59:55 PM »

Quote

They hunt hogs with spears, don't they?

Yeah, I know a guy who hunts hogs with a knife.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2004, 02:54:36 PM »

Quote from: Wlscott

Quote
They hunt hogs with spears, don't they?

Yeah, I know a guy who hunts hogs with a knife.

Yeah, his name is John Rambo! :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #21 on:** August 05, 2004, 08:31:07 PM »

Manual Extractor notch on Ultra 25-06

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/tweakultra.html

Longcruise · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2004, 03:29:29 AM »

Fred, did you notch with a file? Seems like a simpler solution than dropping a rod down the bore.

Wlscott · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2004, 04:06:13 AM »

Quote

Yeah, his name is John Rambo!

Nope, but he's built much the same. He's a fellow Fire Fighter here in town. He goes down to Texas. They bay them with dogs, then kill the pig with a sharp knife.

Sorry guys, I know this is waaaay off topic :?

Hey Fred, the pics of the extractor slot wouldn't load for me on your website. Can you post them here?

aulrich · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2004, 05:07:07 AM »

Fred Thanks for the picture I would not of thought to have made it that wide. I was thinking 5 penny nail wide. I would then make a tool that could fit into ammo carrier that fit on the stock. I'll still make my notch smaller purely for the fact that I have a southpaw in the family so I need to keep him in mind.

One thing I was thinking of was to use nickel plated cases, it was mostly to keep my bigame and varmint load clearly identifiable. But are aren't nickel cases "Slicker" and therefore less prone to stick than straight brass or are they just shiner.

You also mentioned that because of the loose neck there is some blow by causing a soot build up in the neck and shoulder area. Would more frequent case neck annealing keep the neck and shoulder of the case more ductile so that it can strech and seal further up the case? Mind you I rarely get over four reloads ... mainly to loosing them in the field so I have never annealed a case before.

I should have some time to tinker next week, and then some shooting time the week after. With any luck I will be breaking in a Marlin 17v in that session too. But that is another story

Fred M · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2004, 06:05:23 AM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Fred, did you notch with a file? Seems like a simpler solution than dropping a rod down the bore.

I used both a needle file and a Tremel grinding wheel. Yes you are right, dropping things down the barrel or packing a cleaning rod around is not something I like. It could be dangerous if something is left in the bore.

A shooter left a 1/4" wood dowel in the bore and fired the gun. Big bulge stuck bolt, and ruined barrel.

I made the notch wide eugh to use various objects to pop out the case.
A small screw driver that fits in an ammo box is what I use.

Put a guide in the chamber( a cut empty case) opposite the notch so you wont mar the chamber with the file.

Aulrich.
Nickel plated brass is very sticky. It ruins dies and scrapes bullets. Not too good for hand loading. I never use them. Annealing could help. You should be able to get more than 4 reloads from a 243 case?

Fred M