Author Topic: Shot placement- Whitetail Deer (Read 4871 times)

goose7856 · « **on:** July 10, 2004, 06:23:00 AM »

Hi,

I know that most of the vitals on a deer are located on the front portion of the deer's body, and that most people shoot right behind the shoulder. I do not want to be unethical, or cause the deer to suffer. I shoot a high caliber (30-06) and about the longest shot would be 250 yards (I haven't shot one over 115 yards). I always watch TV, and the people shoot behind the shoulder, the deer jumps and kicks, etc. However, my uncle, whom brings me hunting likes me to shoot them in the front shoulder. It literally just blows it into pieces, and the deer drops straight down. I hunt in Louisiana, and it is about as dense woods as possible. They have 10 ft. Palmetto's, trees, shrubs, etc. If you should a deer, and it runs into the woods your chances decrease dramatically of finding the animal. You can try by yourself but it always happens that you have the get everyone at the camp involved to help find your deer. Please give me your input on this subject.

http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/b648-images/b648-2.gif

thanx!!
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flintlock · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2004, 07:00:47 AM »

Goose...A high shoulder shot (bullet through the shoulder blade) or a high lung shot, will drop a whitetail...if you put a good, expanding bullet about 2-4 inches below the spine, the shock will transmit into the spinal cord...and they will drop...if you can't put a bullet through the near shoulder...aim to put one through the offside shoulder blade...flintlock

litman252 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2004, 07:01:18 AM »

If droping your deer on the spot is primary concern, a good shoulder hit is a good way to do it. You had better have a good bullet, 30-06 with a good bullet will do it every time.
YMMV,
Tony

goose7856 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2004, 08:09:00 AM »

thanks for the replies so far.....and yes I do shoot a good bullet. Not a ballistic tip, but a soft point boat tail. I shoot Federal Premium Vital Shock (New line [better than Power Shocl]) 150 grain. I have not shot any bucks but last year I shot five does 1 ran off b/c i shot behind the shoulder b/c it was almost dark, the other four ran 3 feet straight into the ground. Thanks and keep coming with the input

Good Hunting and Straight Shooting

goose7856 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2004, 08:44:37 AM »

I really like that louderthanwords website. How much do some of those guns sell for. (I'm guessing $1,000??)I really like the one with the sort of camo finish, big scope, long barrel, looks perfect for deer, (wish I could buy it HAHA)

Lawdog · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2004, 10:29:17 AM »

goose7856,

I am not attacking your Uncle but I believe he is giving you some bad advice. I have never seen the need to ruin some very good eating just to drop a non-dangerous critter like a deer on the spot. The shoulder shot should be reserved for dangerous game. I have had many deer drop on the spot after shooting them in the heart/lung area. Trick shooting is not needed in the field so stay away from the head, neck or spinal shots. To great a chance to wound a deer with those shots. In my lifetime I have had to dispatch to many deer with lower jaws half shot off, deer with wounds in their necks that were old enough to start festering and deer with a front shoulder blown away and limping along on three legs to ever chance a trick shot. You put a good premium bullet in the heart/lung area on any dear and you will take home the venison. Lawdog

goose7856 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2004, 10:46:32 AM »

I understand what you are saying, and if I hunted in Texas or on the plains where the cover is not as dense I would shot the deer behind the shoulder. However, as I said before, the cover is so thick, the deer could be 2 yards away from you laying dead, and you would not be able to see it. But I do agree with the part about shooting in the head, neck, etc. (too risky)

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2004, 11:46:14 AM »

I have shot many deer at about the base of the neck, about the middle or so, and they all drop in their tracks. It's my favorite shot placement for whitetails. I also shoot right behind the shoulder, and sometimes they drop in their tracks, but more often than not they may run about 50 yards or so. I have also shot deer right at the shoulder - one time it was with a 7 mag about 75 yards away. It was a 100 pound doe and she spun in a 180 and dropped in her tracks. Bad thing was that the entire shoulder meat area was just jelly! I'll never take that kind of a shot again.

Zachary

ms · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2004, 03:56:27 PM »

I shoot all my deer behind the shoulders. :lol:

sgtt · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2004, 06:25:29 PM »

Where do you guys find such cooperative animals? Where I hunt the deer come from the angle they choose. I would prefer a broadside behind the shoulder shot but, do not pass on any shot that I feel I can put into the vitals. Some of the critters know this and will use the trees to hide behind also!

ms · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2004, 03:24:36 AM »

When they hide behind trees I shoot them in the butt. When they come out I give it to them behind the shoulders! Just joking I just wait. :grin:

Chuck White · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2004, 03:54:09 AM »

Watching hunts on the Outdoor Channel, I've noticed that for quite some time the hunter (shooter) will take a "High Shoulder" shot and the deer drops instantly!

Some will complain that you'll lose a lot of meat, but the amount lost is negligable!

A hit in the shoulder blade will usually put them down instantly also!

rickt300 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2004, 05:12:46 AM »

The high shoulder shot will surely drop em but ruining shoulder meat and backstrap just ain't right. I'd use a heavier bullet to get less meat damage at close range and gaurantee a exit wound especially if your stuck with factory ammo. The 180 grain Remington round nose or pointed coreloct works fine. Though I will take neck shots if I can get to it right in front of the shoulder blade I still like the behind the shoulder hit about halfway up from the bottom. The 30-06 is a destructive deer gun if you use light bullets.

goose7856 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2004, 10:10:54 AM »

I

Quote

The high shoulder shot will surely drop em but ruining shoulder meat and backstrap just ain't right. I'd use a heavier bullet to get less meat damage at close range and guarantee a exit wound especially if your stuck with factory ammo. The 180 grain Remington round nose or pointed coreloct works fine. Though I will take neck shots if I can get to it right in front of the shoulder blade I still like the behind the shoulder hit about halfway up from the bottom. The 30-06 is a destructive deer gun if you use light bullets.

Huh?? I agree about the high shoulder shot, I would not take that because the best meat is there. But what are you talking about using a higher grain bullet for?? I bigger bullet will put a bigger hole in the animal. Plus it is going slower than a fast bullet (150 grain). That means the bullet is ripping more stuff up as it goes through. Excuse me if I'm Wrong, but I just don't understand what your trying to say. I blow a big enough hole using a 150 grain at 2900 fps. why would I want to use a BIGGER BULLET, 180 grain traveling at 2600 fps.?? I'm confused please help!!??

Lawdog · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2004, 10:31:23 AM »

goose7856,

The heavier the bullet(180 gr. over 150 gr.) opens more slowly thus ruining less meat, especially on lighter frame animals like deer. But the shoulder shot(high or not) still destroys more meat than the heart/lung shot. Problem with the spinal shot is judging distance. If the deer is closer than you think then you hit the spine and ruin the back-strap. Also this doesnt necessarily kill the deer quickly. I have seen to many deer shot in the back that struggled on the ground brawling until you get there to put them out of their suffering. Using a premium bullet will 99% of the time pass thru the deer leaving an exit hole that a blind man could follow. I know all about heavy brush conditions. We got brush out here so thick that you cant see five feet in front of you and I still have never lost a deer shot thru the heart/lung area. I still say you are getting bad information. Lawdog

goose7856 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2004, 12:03:09 PM »

Can you expalin what you mean by.........

Quote

The heavier the bullet(180 gr. over 150 gr.) opens more slowly thus ruining less meat, especially on lighter frame animals like deer

marylandeer · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2004, 02:01:10 PM »

What Lawdog is saying is the lighter bullet will hit with much more explosive force than the 180. This is because the 150 is traveling much faster and it is structurally weaker than the heavier bullet due to having less mass. A heavier bullet going slower will tend to just push through with less of its energy being deposited into the target. While a lighter bullet going very fast will deposit most or all of its energy into the target with more violent force (make any sense)

goose7856 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2004, 03:33:49 PM »

Yea that makes alot of sense!! Thanx alot........antoher question.......so if you were hunting big animals wouldnt that mean you would want to use a smaller grain buller because it would hit the animal harder??

marylandeer · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2004, 06:12:17 PM »

No not nesesarily because a bigger animal usually means a more dangerous animal and you don't want to take the chance of that light, fast bullet exploding in the first few inches of that large dangerous animal. You want to make sure the bullet is heavy and strong enough to penetrate deep into the animal to do some major internal damage.

goose7856 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2004, 08:56:27 AM »

Thanx for all of your help!! I have one more question. I have just bought a new scope (Nikon Buckmaster 4-12x50), and the place where I am hunting has just made a new field/plot that could have (max) a 400 yard shot. I am now looking into buying some of the best bullets, for those long shots. As of now, I shoot 150 grain soft point boat tail in Federal Premium Vital Shock. I am now looking into buying some new ammo. I am thinking about buying Federal Premium High Energy 165 grain. I asked Bass Pro Shops the fps, for the High Energy round but they have not yet replied. For now, I am shooting 2900 fps. Vital Shock. I would probably only shoot the high Energy round if it has a higher fps. I refuse you shoot any type of ballistic tip.......no exceptions.....I have seen to many deer at my hunting camp die but never be found because there was no exit wound (thus no blood trail). That is how I feel so don't give any advice concerning ballistic tips. Does anyone have some input at whether it is worth the $15, (and could it make a big difference between a kill or not a kill)

Thanks

Lawdog · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2004, 09:26:51 AM »

goose7856,

Ever since Nosler came out with the 165 gr. Partition I have used little else in any of my .30 caliber rifles(from .300 Savage to .300 Weatherby Magnum). It shoots almost as flat as the 150 gr. bullet and packs near the punch of a 180 gr. bullet. Another bullet I am trying is the Barnes TSX. So far the only game I have taken with them is a few Wild Hogs and they are working great. Lawdog

Steelhead · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2004, 09:41:38 AM »

Quote from: goose7856

Thanx for all of your help!! I have one more question. I have just bought a new scope (Nikon Buckmaster 4-12x50), and the place where I am hunting has just made a new field/plot that could have (max) a 400 yard shot. I am now looking into buying some of the best bullets, for those long shots. As of now, I shoot 150 grain soft point boat tail in Federal Premium Vital Shock. I am now looking into buying some new ammo. I am thinking about buying Federal Premium High Energy 165 grain. I asked Bass Pro Shops the fps, for the High Energy round but they have not yet replied. For now, I am shooting 2900 fps. Vital Shock. I would probably only shoot the high Energy round if it has a higher fps. I refuse you shoot any type of ballistic tip.......no exceptions.....I have seen to many deer at my hunting camp die but never be found because there was no exit wound (thus no blood trail). That is how I feel so don't give any advice concerning ballistic tips. Does anyone have some input at whether it is worth the $15, (and could it make a big difference between a kill or not a kill) Thanks

What size groups are you getting at 400 yards?

goose7856 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2004, 11:46:08 AM »

I have never taken a 400 yard shot. That is just the max. distance that the field could be. Lawdog, how do the Nosler 165 grain Partitions compare to the Federal Premium High Energy Bear Bonded in price??

The federal HEBB is $29.99 a box (20 rounds)
Nosler- $??

also how many feetper sec do the noslers shoot??

They are not ballistic tips right??

rickt300 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2004, 03:36:34 PM »

I think the round you are using will work fine on the longer shots as it will slow down enough to give good penetration and yet it will expand at the longer ranges on a deers rib cage. The real problem is designing a bullet that will expand properly at short range and still penetrate a shoulder bone then ask the same bullet to expand on a hit between a deers ribs and lung tissue at long range. Lawdog's experience with Nosler partitions must be different than mine as he wouldn't be such an ardent supporter of them. I have spent more than 200 dollars on various Nosler partitions and have yet to see any superiority they might have on deer size game. The only partition that showed any bonus at all was the 100 grain bullet in 243 caliber on feral hogs and it didn't come close to matching my 7MM mauser with 160 grain Speer hotcors on the same animals.

marylandeer · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2004, 03:43:17 PM »

Goose, you can go to www.federalcartridge.com and download their ballistic tables Remington has theirs on www.remington.com as well.
The load you are questioning is as follows.
165 grain trophy Bonded Bear Claw Federal load# 3006T4 (24" barrel)
Muzzle velocity=3000 / at 100 yards=2730 / 200y=2470 / 300y=2230 / 400y=2000
muzzle energy=3300 / 100y=2725 / 200y=2240 / 300y=1820 / 400y=1465
With a 100 yard zero you should be -3.2" at 200y / -12.1" 300y / -28" 400
This is according to fedreral and is for reference only.
A 400 yard shot with a .30-06 can and has been done, but it would take a lot of practice shooting at 400 yards. There are to many variables to consider at that distance for me.
Oh by the way I found this load at my favorite ammo. supplier www.cheaperthandirt.com it is catalog# 67005 $27.97

goose7856 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2004, 06:18:49 PM »

I went to cheaper than dirt and found some hornady's. Are these their high energy bullets?? They only cost $5 more than what I shoot now. Also, this is what it says: Light Magnum, .30-06 Springfield, 165 Grains, Boattail Spire Point, 20 Rounds Per Box. Is the Boat-tail spire point very similar to the boat tail soft point, or is that some kind of ballistic tip. I guess you all can tell I am not a bullet expert, so please bear with me.

I checked out the Federal load selling at cheaper than dirt that marylandeer had posted. Is trophy bonded bear claw the same as the Federal Premium High Energy??

Thanx

goose7856 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2004, 06:57:56 PM »

ok guys and gals......... i went to the federal ballistics charts.......the difference between the HIGH ENERGY TROPHY BONDED BEAR CLAW (165 grain), and the Federal Premium Vital Shock (150 grain btsp).

Here are the results.

Quote

165 grain trophy Bonded Bear Claw Federal load# 3006T4 (24" barrel)
Muzzle velocity=3000 / at 100 yards=2730 / 200y=2470 / 300y=2230 / 400y=2000
muzzle energy=3300 / 100y=2725 / 200y=2240 / 300y=1820 / 400y=1465
With a 100 yard zero you should be -3.2" at 200y / -12.1" 300y / -28" 400

That is all 100% correct, EXCEPT, for the last number.....he said it is -28 at 400 when it is actually 21.8 (I guess he got the numbers confused, but no big deal)

And for the Federal Premium Vital Shock 150 Grain, BTSP:

FPS= 2910 Muzzle
2690/ 100 Yds
2480/ 200 Yds
2270/ 300 Yds
2070/ 400 Yds
1880/ 500 Yds

Energy= 2820/Muzzle
2420/100 Yds
2040/200 Yds
1710/300 Yds
1430/400 Yds
1180/500 Yds

As you can see when you compare the muzzle energy, that is the biggest difference but wait I have more.......and here is the reallllllll surprise.

TBBC: Average range: BTSP: Average Range: (sighted in at 100yd

-0.2/50yds -0.2/50 yds
Dead on!/100 yds Dead on!/100yds
-3.2/200 yds -3.3/200 yds
-12.1/300yds -12.4/300 yds

Long Range: Left (TBBC), Right (BTSP) SIGHTED IN AT 200 YARDS!!

.6/50yds .6/50yds
1.4/100yds 1.7/100yds
Dead On!/200yds Dead on!!/200yds
-7.3/300yds -7.4/300yds
-21.8/400yds -21.5/400yds (better than HE)
-44.8/500yds -43.7/500YDS (better)

The facts have been proven. For longer shots the BTSP has less drop thus, it is traveling faster, and easier shooting.

Does everyone agree?? Now I want to compare it to the Hornady Light Magnum Rounds.

Zachary · « **Reply #27 on:** July 13, 2004, 02:14:30 AM »

Some people get all caught up with muzzle velocity, but the aerodynamics of the bullet is just as important. That's why I was the first person to tell you what bullet you were using.

A fairly blunt nose bullet like a TBBC may come out of the barrel faster than, say, an aerodynamic bullet - like a Sierra Boat-tail. However, after about, say 200 yards or so, the TBBC will slow down dramatically, while the BT will still be zooming by. Thus, after a certain point, the BT will actually have a higher velocity, and thus energy, than the TBBC.

However, keep in mind that velocity and energy numbers are not everything. The same goes for bullet construction. Too many people get caught up in all these numbers, but they should only be taken with a grain of salt.

Zachary

marylandeer · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2004, 03:04:36 AM »

Goose I didn't get anything confused you have to read the part where I said (with a 100 yard zero).
Your number of -28.1 came from the (Long range table) with a zero of (200 yards) take a look see!!!!!!

Steelhead · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2004, 03:29:08 AM »

Your killing me Goose

The only way to know the speed and were they hit is to shot the dang things at different distances.