Author Topic: 357 mag for deer  (Read 2477 times)

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Offline Cabin4

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357 mag for deer
« on: July 09, 2004, 04:14:28 AM »
Its good to finally see how the 357mag has taken to handgun hunters. About 2 years ago I posted here on GBO my intent to use this caliber for deer and received very negative and even condescending responses from almost 100% of those that posted responses. At time I would say the responses were down right dirty and real ugly. I was amazed at just how my post hit a bad nerve with those that read it. We even an expert in terminal ballistics from a major gun publication get in on the posts. This expert was convinced that the 357 was not usable on deer with any bullet or load.

Most said the caliber was totaly inadequate at any distance. I tried to contra these posts with info on the new loads and bullets that are available. I also sighted some ballistics data to support my theory that it should work with authority at close in hunting.

It looks like the 357 for deer sized game is a go. Its not the best, but in the hands of a capable shooter and within range, this caliber will do just fine on deer. It seems to add another dimension to the challenge as I see it. Theres nothing wrong in my mind with using bigger and faster stuff for deer, but once in a while its fun to want to add to the challenge when using a firearm in the woods.

I have an older friend who lives in the upper midwest and has successfully been using the 357mag in a revolver with iron sights and hot hand loads on deer since the mid 70's. This is how I finally got started thinking of its use on deer when I picked up my first 357 a couple of years ago.

Anyway, nuff said. Just thought I would throw this out here.
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Offline New Hampshire

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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2004, 06:10:28 AM »
Its good to hear you were not deterred.  I think, with proper practice and conservative shooting, the .357 is plenty fine for deer.  It has stopped many a human with one shot (most of the time hasty reflexive shots.)  There is no reason why a well placed shot on a deer, an animal that might be a bit tougher, but still human sized, should put a deer down.  This is not to mean Im about to condone any other self defense caliber, but the .357 Mag was purposefully designed to hit harder than the normal self defense rounds.  i've seen pictures of BIG animals taken with the mag back when it first came out.  S$W made a publicity hunting tour and you would not believe some of the game they took with it.  And if you want to REALLY see what this round can do try it in a closed breech system like a Semi Auto or single shot.  Not take deer?  HA I laugh at that.  'Course Im preaching to the choir.  Tell us how things work out, Id like to know.
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Offline Old Griz

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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2004, 07:17:37 PM »
:cb2: I'm really sorry that some folks got nasty years ago. I've not been a member of this forum for too long, but for the short while I've been here I have found the shooters here to be very knowledgeable (soooooo much more than I), gracious (especially when I show just how ignorant I am), experienced, and down right fun and entertaining. Even when we don't agree, I have always been treated with the greatest of courtesy. This is what has really made this forum great.

As for .357s, I have more of them than anything else, and enjoy shooting them. However, only my Colt Grizzly would be a hunting gun rather than a self defense/carry gun. I'd rather hunt with a .44, but .357s have been taking deer sized game longer than .44s. Now that there are master blasters out there like .475s, .454s, .50s, and .500s, I expect to hear some day soon that .44s are too small.

I'm glad you're hanging in there with the .357. Post some pictures of the next deer you take with it, and be sure you've got one of those "see-I-told-you-I-could-do-it" grins on your face, too!
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Offline Catfish

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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2004, 04:17:50 PM »
No doubt that the .357 mag. will take deer. I have acouple but will not deer hunt with them as I also have other handgun that I fell are better suited. For a walk around gun I use a .44 mag. revolver, single action. Got acouple of .454`s, but the .44 mag. will out group them and has pleanty of power. For sitting I like my .357 max. It`s a 15 in. Bullberry barrel on an Encore frame. Has  by-pod and scope and is good to 200 yrds. +. I`ve also got acouple of good shooting .357 that I would not hesitate to shoot deer with at 100 yrds., but I have other guns that do the job better. The .357 mag. is a great gun for people that don`t like recoil, or don`t have something larger.

Offline 257 weatherby

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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2004, 05:18:33 PM »
Like the others have said the 357 will kill deer. I personally think that the bigger calibers are better suited to deer hunting but with proper shot placement at close range it should work. Since winchester loads the partition gold in this caliber that should help. Also, when the 357 came out old Doug Wesson took all kinds of game that are a lot bigger then deer. But he was a great shot and got very close before shooting.

Offline Jerry Lester

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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2004, 06:05:43 PM »
I hunt deer with my 357 Blackhawk, as well as a 357 Marlin 1894C, and both(especially the rifle) work as good as any other caliber within the proper limits.

It's just like the others here have said. You just have to keep the ranges reasonable, use a good tough bullet, and place your shots well. That should be written in stone no matter what you're using for any animal, but it "has" to be followed when using the 357 on deer, if you expect consistantly good results.

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2004, 10:41:01 PM »
Use of the .357 Mag on deer sure seems to bring out a lot of negative responses no matter where posted. For sure most magazine writers are dead set against it. Seems I recall one who pitched it as fine up to maybe 50 yards. I've never used it on deer so have no first hand experience to go on.

But I do know a few folks personally who've used it and had fine results. I've heard from folks who say they've used it with bullets from 125 JHPs to 200 grain cast all claiming their bullet of choice is the best. Me I dunno. I just never seem to get my "round tuit" to use it on deer as I have so many others I feel are superior I just never seem to take it for that use. Were I to use it I think I'd use not less than a 140 XTP or more than a 180 hard cast. But that's based on gut feel not game experience with the round.

When it first came out back in the 30s it was touted as useful for everything that walks. Folks took it out and killed all manner of game with it up to and including the big bears, moose and elk. Perhaps it was even used in Africa. Most magazine writers claim that while some had good success there was also a lot of wounded game that got away and that's their main gripe on it. If you place bullets wrong tho you get that result with most everything. Back in those days the .357 Magnum was a totally different round than it is today.

Even when I started using it back in the early 60s it was a different round than it is today. Factory ammo specs then callled for a 158 grain at 1550 fps from a 4" barrel. Did it get that? Dunno. Didn't have a chrono in those days. I do know it was one heck of a lot hotter than today's ammo is. I for one still load to those levels when I load it in a stout revolver but don't generally in the lighter weight ones. Loaded to such a level I can't see why it shouldn't do fine on broadside or near broadside shots with 140-180 grain JHPs and even perhaps on full broadside with 125s. With cast bullets of 160-180 grains I'd expect full penetration from most any angle so if the bullet is placed to go thru the boiler room it should be deadly it seems to me.

Still I just never find myself convinced enough to leave the larger bores home and to take it to verify that. Maybe some day.  :roll:

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Offline Cabin4

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2004, 03:58:09 AM »
unfortunately I have not had an opportunity to use it on deer yet. I do carry it in the woods as a side arm waiting for the opportunity when the right shot presents itself. All this is compounded by the fact that I live in a special regulation area and only shot guns can be used. So I'm limited to the time I spend in the non-special reg areas. This is usually 2 maybe 3 days a season max. I thought I had my chance last season on the last day with about 1 hour of hunting to go. A doe came in within 50 yards but she never stood still and kept walking. She passed through this opening and I took it with my 30-06. This chance would never given me the time to put the rifle down and take out the revolver.

I simply look at it this way: The 357 has a good flat broad metplate in roughly 35 cal. Using a high quality expanding bullet like the partition 180 grain, it should be quite enough to do the job. If you compare this to say a 30-30 using a 150 grain load, it would seem to at least have some advantages close in. The wider, heavier bullet from the 357 close in should be a better killer if the bullet performs properly. Of course this is the critical question, will the bullet expand. If it does, at these ranges, I'm not concerned with boiler room penetration. I think this is a given. So when you stack it up against other calibers , this it what I'm looking at.

Hopefully I will have my opportunity to use it day when that right shot presents itself.
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Offline GunnyII

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357 mag for deer
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2004, 07:39:13 PM »
Hey all.

I posted this on a previous thread and thought it was relevant here. To date, I have taken four whitetail does with 187gr LBT's @ 1300fps from a six inch Python. All four were pass through shots at 30 yards or less. This bullet has a meplat as big as a Keith 44 SWC, and has no trouble putting meat on the table. Shot placement and the ability to pass on certain shots is a given with any of the standard calibers.

One of these shots was a quartering to, front shoulder exiting just south of the diaphragm. That's some 20 inches through bone, muscle and vitals! I'm convinced.
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Offline Cabin4

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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2004, 03:50:58 AM »
Quote from: GunnyII
Hey all.

I posted this on a previous thread and thought it was relevant here. To date, I have taken four whitetail does with 187gr LBT's @ 1300fps from a six inch Python. All four were pass through shots at 30 yards or less. This bullet has a meplat as big as a Keith 44 SWC, and has no trouble putting meat on the table. Shot placement and the ability to pass on certain shots is a given with any of the standard calibers.

One of these shots was a quartering to, front shoulder exiting just south of the diaphragm. That's some 20 inches through bone, muscle and vitals! I'm convinced.


That is some really good details on the 357 for deer. I would think you could get similar results out to 60 or so yards with the revolver. Out of a lever gun, I could see this out to 100 yards. For maost of us in the east, this is probablly 75% of the hunting situation anyway.

I think the fact that so few have really used this caliber for deer, make it difficult to understand what it can do. I never really paid much attention to energy # when it comes to killing power and comparing different calibers. I prefer to look at bullet construction, performance, metplate and weight when it comes to thin skinned med game such as deer.

Congratulations on your success. Maybe other folks can post there sucess with the 357. It would be very interesting to know the similar facts such as range, bullet and what damage it did to the game.
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Offline Rmouleart

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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2004, 04:03:56 AM »
You can kill a deer with a 22lr if the shot is properly placed, but is it the best tool in the shed for the job, of course not. This is why I think the 357mag is not the best tool in the shed for deer hunting, when I was in my 20's I shot a good buck at twenty yards three times broadside all shots were in the kill zone, he ran around me like no tomorrow, got lucky and found him more than 200yards away, bye luck, doing circles around some small amounts of blood found, very little blood hit the ground as well, at the time I was using Win silver tips I think they were 135gr bullet, that was the last time I hunted with a 357mag, Yes many man have been brought down bye 357mag, but a man and a deer are like apples and pears, a deer can endure much more than a man. I must say over the past five years bullet construction have come a long way, even understanding this, I still think you are undergunned using a 357mag for whitetail, I'm talking the average hunter.
No need to take the chance of wounding a healthy animal, Its hard enough to get a good shot. I want to hit them with a good meplat like a 44mag/454 casull seems to be good medicine for whitetails using a revolver. I have used the 357mag as a finishing gun when rifle hunting, if I drop a deer and he is still trying to get up, I will walk up closer if possible and head shoot them with the 357mag, I have done this a few times in the past, now all I carry for a revolver is the 454 Casull across my chest using a bandito holster or cross draw, reason is bear and deer seasons overlap, so in tern I really want some good power when handgunning for bears. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2004, 05:02:10 AM »
About 20 years ago I used a Ruger blackhawk in.357 MAG for deer hunting. I shot a buck at 35 yards, it took out both lungs and the bullet did not exit. The bullet was under the hide. The deer ran into thick cover and I waited 30 minutes to start tracking. I went to where the deer was shot but did not find any blood at all. I went in the direction the buck went and still found no blood. I started going left to right moving in the direction the deer had headed. I found him piled up about 100 yards from where I shot him. I was happy I found the deer, but no blood trail made it hard for tracking. I switch to a 44MAG then, and I have no problem getting a blood trail. The hole moral behind this story is, if you are going to hunt with a .357MAG be prepared to do a lot of looking if you do not get a blood trail. I am sure a lot of deer have been taken with a .357MAG, but I would go to 41MAG and above for good penetration and blood trail. JMHO.  :grin:
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Offline Cabin4

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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2004, 05:49:01 AM »
I have seen similar bad stories about no blood trail or lack of pass thru shot using 44, 41 and even rifle loads on deer.

I think it all boils down to proper load/bullet and placement. A poor bullet choice and or placement in most calibers (resonable) will result in similar poor results.

I was at a bear camp last season and a guy was shooting a Ruger Deerfield carbine in 44mag. He was shooting 230 grain cheap import brand factory loads. On a 90 lb bear it took 3 shots and not one passed thru at 20 yards. It was finally a head shot that did it in. I think we would all agree that a 90lb bear is a good example of a thin skinned game. With the right bullet/placement, this bear should have been dead at the barrel with the first hit which was into the shoulder.
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Offline Jim Stacy

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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2004, 04:50:50 PM »
IMHO the most important factor in bullet performance is placement. I have shot deer with multiple different calibers and had some impressive kills and failures on loads that were adequate. A 357 will kill deer , hogs and a lot of other things if you place your shot correctly. I saw a 150# hog drop on the spot from a 357 --head shot at 35 yards. I saw a 50# hog trot off like nothing had happened with a 240 XTP through the chest , trotted 100 yards stopped choked and died. I have killed several deer with a 221 fire ball and a 30 carbine contender . Ideal calibers ,no but thats what I had with me and I am a careful hunter that puts bullets in low chest , heart area or head shot and both kill quickly . Raking shots and bad angles I just pass. Hunting is not always about killing but being out in the woods and enjoying the moments. Jim

Offline shooter444002

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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2004, 06:59:17 PM »
I have had really good sucess on lots of animals with the 357. I like it more than my 44 because my DW shoots so much better. I really like it in the marlin carbine, mine is pushing a 158gr fp at 1925 fps and it hits like a ton of bricks. Have really worked some hogs over with it and my 6yo daughter and my wife have used it on several deer. I have used the rifle to 125yds, but limit the DW to 50yds or less because that is where I am comfortable with it.

Offline Robert357

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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2004, 03:38:06 PM »
I think that one thing not discussed on this post is that "there are deer and then there are deer!"

What will reliably take down a small Cascade Blacktail or Sitka Blacktail may not slow down a big Mule deer, even though they are related.  

Personally, in Washington State, I think that a 357 Mag would be just fine on a blacktail and may try that this fall.  If I hunt past the crest of the Cascade Mountains for mule deer, I think I may want something a bit more.  The blacktails are smaller and usually in brushy terrain at closer distances.  My experience with mule deer is that they are much bigger and taken at slightly farther distances.

If I use my Ruger 357 Mag with red-dot sight, I will most likely use a 180 grain bullet over a strong charge of Alliant 2400 powder.

Offline Gregory

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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2004, 03:48:41 PM »
I've taken a total of one deer with a 357 Mag So I'm no expert by any stretch. I used the Lyman 170 gr cast SWC to take a small doe at 30 yds. The gun was a 10" TC Contender.
Broadside lung shot, complete penetration and deer went 40 yds and curled up and died.
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Offline GunnyII

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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2004, 08:13:11 PM »
It looks like I forgot to mention that all four of these whitetails were 160+ pound Michigan does.  I agree they are not Mule deer, and I like to keep my .357 shots under 50 yards. I would also like to  stress the use of heavy (for caliber) cast bullets from a reputable source like Cast Performance or Beartooth.

I have witnessed only poor results on larger game from any JHP from a .357 revolver.

Just my two pennies worth :)
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Offline Cabin4

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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2004, 04:37:40 AM »
I would not think the size of the deer would mean all that much here. Distance would be my real concern. If you put the bullet in the boiler room at 30 yards on mule deer or a 160lb doe with the right load.

Really, all your talking when it comes to deer(mulies, whitetail, blacktail) is more very soft internal organs. If your getting complete pass thru on a 160lb doe, you should get the same on a larger deer providing the bullet is put in the vital area.
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2004, 11:24:10 AM »
I posed this question once before when someone was debating using a .243 for elk... and that is, what's the point?  There is no doubt that you could kill a deer with a .357... you could kill a deer with a .22lr if you shot it in the head or spine... but what's the advantage?  there is no question that other cartriges dispatch deer quicker and more reliably, so why use a less effective method?  I understand that people can be careful about shot selection and so on but the truth is that if you hunt long enough you're going to make a less-than-perfect shot, and at that point i'd prefer to have made that shot with a more powerful round.  To a certain extent I think we as humane hunters have an obligation to use the most reasonable method for a given situation and I don't see where the constant debate about killing something with the smallest possible round fits in there... unless it's the only gun you have, and then quite honestly, it's better to hunt with that then with nothing.

Offline oldhunter

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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2004, 04:11:43 PM »
About 5 years ago, I shot an average size doe with my .357 using a 125gn JHP.  Poor choice to use when confronted with only a frontal shot to the chest.  Was the last weekend of the season and no venison in the freezer and almost dark.  Unable to use my shotgun as she caught me in an awkward position and could only draw my pistol.

One shot and off she went.  Was able to see a little blood in the snow but was difficult with decreasing light.  Finally found her about 500 yards away and needed another finishing shot.  Never did find the bullet as I believe it was in the gut pile and it was pitch dark when dressing her out with only a flash light.

I would never shoot at any deer again with any handgun unless able to have a broadside shot.  With the .357, the load I used was not the best either.  I feel that a heavier cast bullet would have been much better but with the frontal shot, may have had the same results.

Have since used a T/C Encore pistol in 7mm-08 with 16" barrel and scope that was capable out to 150 yards with a good rest.  This year will be trying a S&W .44 special with 255gn Buffalo Bore hard cast ammo.  Shots will be limited to no more than 50 yards which is a lot less than with the Encore.

Love to use different guns and loads and someday will try the .357 again but with a better load.

Offline 45LC-Man

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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2004, 12:54:52 PM »
My first deer was taken with a .308 and ran about 50 yds before piling up. I shot her broadside through the breadbasket. About 5 years ago I shot a Buck with a 6mm Rem and he was found 3 days later by my son-in-law. And to finalize this story I shot a buck with my .257 Roberts at about 10 yards. The shot broke both front shoulders and he "bulldozed" about 50 yards before expiring next to a swamp.  I've also dropped deer on the spot with both calibers.

The bottom line is this.............. everyone has either had a horror story about "how big is big enough?" or has heard of one from a friend or a friend of a friend. Sometimes a .375 H&H put through the heart won't stop a deer but a .17 HMR might drop him like a dead stick on the same day. A .357 is quite adequate if he dies on the spot but not quite enough if you have to go and look for him. Opinions..................... aren't they great!!

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2004, 01:41:05 PM »
well certainly you're right that there is a wide range of stories, both good and bad, but there is also an underlying science to this.  Physics determines exactly how much energy is transfered to a target from a given bullet.  Now over a huge population sample there WILL be differences in lethality.  It's similar to how everyone knows someone who, "smoked all thier life and never got cancer".  It may well be true, but you have to look at the big picture, which is that smoking kills you.

Offline 45LC-Man

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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2004, 04:29:21 PM »
Did I miss something?

Offline cbagman

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Re: 357 mag for deer
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2004, 05:06:43 PM »
Quote from: cabin4
Its good to finally see how the 357mag has taken to handgun hunters. About 2 years ago I posted here on GBO my intent to use this caliber for deer and received very negative and even condescending responses from almost 100% of those that posted responses. At time I would say the responses were down right dirty and real ugly. I was amazed at just how my post hit a bad nerve with those that read it. We even an expert in terminal ballistics from a major gun publication get in on the posts. This expert was convinced that the 357 was not usable on deer with any bullet or load.

Hello from the one who probably nayed it.. I have used a 4 inch Mountain Gun in .357 for deer. The first one was a 90 pound spike at about 25 yards.. He was hit behind the right shoulder quartering away and fell on the spot and pawed around about half way before he quit moving. The bullet was fully mushroomed under the far side skin..It was a 158 g XTP bullet and a full dose of H110. The second and last deer I shot with this combo was a huge old buck about 30 yards away almost full sideways to me. I shot him in the right shoulder. The bullet went WHACK and he lumbered off and I never saw hide nor hair of him again. I had a .30-06 across my lap at the time and had already shot a decent buck with it  that morning.. So I decided to be cute and used the revolver..Therefore I resolved to shoot only cast bullets or a 170 grain flat point in the .357 for deer..Circumstances have not fallen into place to do so as I generally do not pack this revolver, but I do plan to use this load in a Marlin Carbine. ( 170 grain jacketed flat point)..I was so upset by that big buck getting away that I am scared to try it again with anything less stout in the .357. I don't have any qualms about taking a cull deer with small size with any decent .357 load, but at any time Mr. Wallhanger might show up.. I  talked before about this book Robert Rourke wrote- "Use Enough Gun" and he seemed to be on the mark..Ever since then my caliber choices have trended toward larger and faster.. from cbagman
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Offline dukkillr

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357 mag for deer
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2004, 05:39:56 PM »
45LC-Man:  what i was trying to say (albeit confusingly) is that your statement about how everyone has stories and opinions just tries to get people to ignore the reality of the situation... i compared it to smoking because everyone knows someone who says, "i know so and so who smoked all their life and never got cancer".  that's just like someone saying, "i've shot hundreds of deer with a .357 and they all fell right over".  the truth is that over the long haul the statistics are against it being the best caliber for whitetail deer, regardless of what someone's stories are...

no one really answered my root question though... what's the point?  there can be no debate that there are better (and more humane?) calibers to use... what's the point of not using them?

Offline 45LC-Man

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357 mag for deer
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2004, 01:28:59 AM »
Dukiller says "the truth is that over the long haul the statistics are against it being the best caliber for whitetail deer"

Did you mean to say statistics or ballistics? I don't think that there are many statistics to support your theory. I also don't think a .357 is as marginal as you suggest. A .30 carbine might be but not a .357 mag. Too many folks have been sussessful with it. Personally don't use one on a regular basis as I like my .45 Loooooooong Colt 1894 Cowboy Limited but I have carried my 1894cs in hopes of seeing Mr. Mossyback and wouldn't think twice about shooting him with it.

Offline 45LC-Man

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357 mag for deer
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2004, 02:47:26 AM »
Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

Offline GunnyII

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357 mag for deer
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2004, 03:51:26 PM »
AMEN!
You can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word! -- GunnyII

Offline Jerry Lester

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357 mag for deer
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2004, 04:44:01 PM »
I don't claim to be an expert by a long shot, but then again,I've killed(cleanly) quite a few deer here in VA with both the 357 in a rifle, as well as my Blackhawk.

I follow "bow hunting" rules when using my Blackhawk. I've killed my fair share of groundhogs with the Blackhawk out to 60 yards or farther, and have no doubt that I could place my shots at least that far on a deer, but then, there's no need  to really. I hunt with my 357 revolver purely for sport, and wouldn't for no amount of money take a chance of making a bad hit with it, so I stalk till I'm usually within 30 yards or closer.

With my 1894C I've regularly(not occasionally) killed groundhogs out to 150 yards, and even busted quite a few past 200 yards, so making a good shot on a deer up to 150 yards wouldn't be hard at all. I still limit my shots with it to 100 yards or less on deer though.

The 357 in experienced hands will "definately" take deer cleanly, if the hunter just keeps in mind what caliber he's using.