Categories in place for SB rifle

[K2]

For the over the counter .22 rf rifles there will be 3 categories.  Auto loader, lever and slide action (pumps), and bolt actions.  Targets will be the 3/8ths scale.  Postions will be off hand and freestyle with the barrel needing to be at least 12 inches above the ground to eliminate the prone position.  Sitting, kneeling or a variation will be fine, with no slings or shooting coats allowed.  Factory sights only for open sights.  Minimum trigger pull of > 1 lb. + safe trigger requirement.  In the Scope category the scopes will be limited to 9x maximum (the 3x9's are the most popular scope today) and must retail for less than the rifle they are mounted on.  We will put out a list of approved makes and models, all of the guns that have sold in the millions will be on the list such as the 10/22, model 60, 39's, winchester and remington pumps and the copies from taurus rossi etc.  The Barrels must wear the original mfg stamps and markings.  Ammo will be High velocity only.  For this there will be 2 gun aggregates (one for scopes and one for iron sights) a 2 gun standing (iron +scope) and a 2 gun freestyle. and a 4 gun aggregate.  Point breaks will be 0-19, 20-27, 28-34, 35-40 for the open sights and 0-25, 26-32, 33-37, 38-40 for scopes.   Report format will be a monthly national postal style with multi enrties allowed.  Should be a lot of fun.  It will be a goal to get as many shooters to the top class as possible.  

SB pistol is going to be 1/2 scale for the over ther counter guns, more on this as the details are worked out.  Max barrel length for the autos will be 7 1/4".

The classes will be Novice, Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert so we will have a single letter designator for the match reports. N, M, S, E saving a bit of column space.

[Smokin7mm]

Sounds to me like there a quiet a few rules here that affect things that don't really matter.  Now price caps on scopes based on the rifle they are mounted on?  So I can put a higher end leupold on a marlin 39 but can only put a simons on a marlin 60?  Trigger pull of no less than 1lb.  Match directors are not going to have to carry a trigger pull gage along with a shooter bible and a scope manufactures catalog for pricing information on make and models.  Better allow an extra day for the match just for registration and gun/scope verification.  Might even need to have a shooter bring proof of purchase of the gun and scope just to make sure he didn't pay more for the scope.  Makes no sense to me.  I say all of this in a very sarcastic way.  Shooting is all about fun.  If it isn't fun I wouldn't do it.  If you want to allow all of this at your matches that if fine.  I allow anybody to shoot anything they want for fun as long as there is no target damage and it is safe.  IHMSA doesn't get their dollar, the shooter has fun, no problems.  I am not going to go out and try to start a new organization to try and replace something that already exists.

[K2]

Hi smokin

The $ cap on scopes is not going to be a problem, and the md's will be provided with a list of equipment.  Trigger gauges can be bought by a club for about $15 or made for about 50 cents.  This is a non issue.  

I think you are concerned that a low cost game is going to be a success and are trying to come up with all sorts of reasons that it won't work.   You will benefit from players that want more challange than we will offer, and our MD's will point them in your direction if they have interest.  

I have talked to many 10/22 type of users and they think it is a great idea.  These folks like the idea of a low cost equipment game with targets appropriately sized for what they own.   They don't want to shoot against super target rifles on the 1/5 scale targets.

One major area we are addressing is a match director support area with a handbook on how to run and deal with match issues that will come up.  Part of that handbook will have the contact info for the other Silhouette games for those who wish to push their equipment beyond what the new game will allow.  One major goal will be to get as many folks to "expert" as we can by focusing on marksmanship instead of better equipment.  IF 3/4 of the membership is in "Expert" that will be fine and will not be cause to change the point breaks on the classes.  We have already found that the over the counter equipment using promo .22's are capable of expert level scores so there is no need to constantly upgrade.   This has been done with a 3 1/4lb trigger using both Remington and Winchester promo ammo.  No doubt Federal and CCI ammo will be capable as well with their promo lines of high velocity ammo.  

Silhouette is fun and their is plenty of room for a new and growing organization with a slightly different focus.  This will help all the silhouette associations by gettting more people interested in silhouette in general.  The gun clubs around the country will be happy to have any group that actually puts more people on their ranges.  They will benefit from the promotion of marksmanship skills and safety.  Families will benefit from having a fun sport with an active jr. program.  

We have begun to hear from folks that want in on the ground floor so it is going to work!  I talked to a fellow that recently retired and wants to fill up some spare time.  He was a past IPSC shooter that knows the problems when equipment becomes the main focus and thinks the $ caps are the best way to keep the focus on the people instead of the equipment.  When I told him paper matches will be allowed in addition to the steel, he said he will be starting up before summer is over cause he can do it without having to spend a lot at the beginning.  Two buddies can enjoy a paper "match" without hauling a ton of steel around and many retirees will like that.  Steel matches of course will be where most will gravitate to but for those where it can't be done either due to range restrictions or the issues of dealing with steel targets, we will welcome them also.   Our focus will be on improving marksmanship, and building up a shooting community thru this formalized plinking game.  This is going to be a fun game rather than a serious competition, though no doubt some will compete against one another.   There are plenty of shooters that shy away from the serious competitions that will feel at home in this new game.  

I wish you the best Smokin but we are traveling different paths and that is as American as Apple Pie  :wink:

[B_Koes]

A couple of things stand out that just don't make sense to me.  First, if you're going to regulate the power of scope that must be used then it seems superfluous to also mandate a dollar cap on the cost of the scope.  I don't think it offers any competitive advantage for someone to buy a 3-9x Zeiss (or other "ultra-premium" brand) over a 3-9x Tasco.  Just seems like needless overregulation to me.

It also doesn't make sense to me to break the categories into every action type with the probable exception of bolt vs. the rest.  A pump or lever gun has no real competitive advantage over an auto in terms of accuracy.  At least where 3/8th scale targets are concerned.

Another point that I wouldn't like is to have the type of ammunition mandated to me.  I believe that I should have the option of choosing standard velocity ammunition.  I've seen way too many excellent 50yd groups fall completely to crap when measured out at 100yds...I suspect because of high velocity ammo transitioning back to subsonic velocity.

The trigger pull rule of greater than 1# seems like a contradiction to the spirit of the game that you say you're trying to implement.  Most rifles don't come anywhere close to that from the box.  Unless somebody puts time and probably money into their rifle the pull will not be anywhere close to that low.  Why not put a more standard weight like 2# on it so many of those NRA Hunter rifles could play without significant handicap...many of those are pretty much stock triggers.

Why eliminate the prone position?  I would think that is a viable and legitimate shooting position.  Personally, I've never shot prone but if you're going to allow a "freestyle" why favor one position over another?

I like what you're trying to accomplish, but this set of rules doesn't accomplish it.

[K2]

HI BK

The things you want, $1000 scopes, $10 a box target ammo, Model 39 Marlins shooting head to head against a Marlin model 60's, Prone for freestyle, all would become the "Standard" if allowed.  All of these things are desired because of competitive advantage.   The big market is the 10/22's, model 60's, etc. with stock iron sights or with low buck scopes.  This market is currently completely ignored and therefore has a huge potential.  Some of these people will get hooked and want more challange at which time they may join you in the NRA Hunter Rifle game.  Good for all  :wink:

There is little growth potential with those high $ things, and the goal is to attract folks that the current games are not attracting.  You should stay with your current Hunter rifle competition as that is what you like to do.  That is great and we are not trying to get the current competitors to change the games they are playing.

We are looking for folks that want to shoot inexpensive equipment with others that enjoy the same and focus on marksmanship imporvement instead of "winning" matches.    This has a huge potential for growth if we can regulate out the "serious" competitor in exchange for the good competitor/shooter whose primary interest is improving his marksmanship skills and having fun with others that like to shoot.    This will be a great family sport as well.  

A couple of things stand out that just don't make sense to me.  First, if you're going to regulate the power of scope that must be used then it seems superfluous to also mandate a dollar cap on the cost of the scope.  I don't think it offers any competitive advantage for someone to buy a 3-9x Zeiss (or other "ultra-premium" brand) over a 3-9x Tasco.  Just seems like needless overregulation to me.

It also doesn't make sense to me to break the categories into every action type with the probable exception of bolt vs. the rest.  A pump or lever gun has no real competitive advantage over an auto in terms of accuracy.  At least where 3/8th scale targets are concerned.

Another point that I wouldn't like is to have the type of ammunition mandated to me.  I believe that I should have the option of choosing standard velocity ammunition.  I've seen way too many excellent 50yd groups fall completely to crap when measured out at 100yds...I suspect because of high velocity ammo transitioning back to subsonic velocity.

The trigger pull rule of greater than 1# seems like a contradiction to the spirit of the game that you say you're trying to implement.  Most rifles don't come anywhere close to that from the box.  Unless somebody puts time and probably money into their rifle the pull will not be anywhere close to that low.  Why not put a more standard weight like 2# on it so many of those NRA Hunter rifles could play without significant handicap...many of those are pretty much stock triggers.

Why eliminate the prone position?  I would think that is a viable and legitimate shooting position.  Personally, I've never shot prone but if you're going to allow a "freestyle" why favor one position over another?

I like what you're trying to accomplish, but this set of rules doesn't accomplish it.

[B_Koes]

Ahhh you misunderstand...I would explain but I think from your response you do not want any constructive help.  I don't necessarily WANT any of those things.  Please don't distort my words.  I also believe that a low cost game is beneficial.

I don't shoot NRA Hunter Rifle...you assume too much in your comment.  I shoot whatever is available.  I apologize for offering my thoughts where they are not wanted.

[K2]

Hi Again BK  

If you don't want high dollar equipment and ammo then I am not sure what the reason for mentioning Zeiss and sub sonic ammo was for.   If the early "top guns" are using Zeiss and 10x then that will be considered the standard.  If they are using Tasco and Thunderbolt then that will too!

Even our small group doesn't agree 100% on what we should allow and what not.  What we have so far is what we are willing to compromise on.  No matter what set of rules we set, some folks are not going to like them.  3 categories, two positions and 3/8ths targets seems pretty simple with low buck rifles and low power scopes.  Our weight limits are going to be too low for a current  "hunter rifle" most likely so that isn't an option.  

If you give it a try you will find it a low cost level playing field.  If not there are lots of others to spend time in.  One thing all those who shoot competitively understand is that it is easy to loosen the rules but nearly impossible to tighten them up once the game gets going.  It is better to over regulate rather than under regulate in the beginning.  

FYI Democracy never works, best is a republic.  Glad you are interested in a low cost game cause this will be the only silhouette one available for the top competitors using bargain guns and ammo.  Regardless of how good a shot they are,  their equipment will be affordable to just about all who can buy a rifle.  

Tell us how to keep the focus off high dollar scopes or ammo if let in the game, we are in fact listening  :wink:  

Ahhh you misunderstand...I would explain but I think from your response you do not want any constructive help.  I don't necessarily WANT any of those things.  Please don't distort my words.  I also believe that a low cost game is beneficial.

I don't shoot NRA Hunter Rifle...you assume too much in your comment.  I shoot whatever is available.  I apologize for offering my thoughts where they are not wanted.

[K2]

B Koes  

We talked over some of your concerns and there is potential movement on the trigger pull weight.  I checked my plinker that I used for my part of the point break setting and it is right at 3 lbs and was not a problem in shooting good scores.  

Of course 2 or 3 lbs will make some folks cringe especially if they are used to triggers in ounces, but we are not going to appeal to everyone anyway.  

On the high buck scopes and ammo all are convinced that would be a wrong direction to go in.  The under $150 scopes are the best sellers in terms of volumn in America on the low end .22's we are talking about.  Probably less than a few percent ever put an expensive scope on a 60, 10/22, rossi pump etc.