Moose milk and pillow ticking

[skippy 10Z]

I've been reading a lot and learning a lot and appreciate all of your posts.   You all have provided me many enjoyable hours of reading which serves to fuel my itch to shoot. I've been shooting my old Hawken 50 a lot lately and would like to try some of the things I've been reading about. That way I might not have to run to the store all the time to buy pre-cut lubed patches, TC bore cleaner between shots etc.... I want to try the moosemilk that some of you have mentioned. (15 parts water to 1 part water soluable machinist's oil).  Someone in another post mentioned Sta-Lube. What other "machinists oils" (brand names) do you use, and when you say you use "machinist's oil," are you refering to the cutting fluids they use? Is this oil something I can pick up at the local hardware store or must it be ordered from KBC or Enco or something like that?

On the pillow ticking subject.  I went to Wal-Mart and purchase a couple of yards of ticking.  One was plain cream colored and the other is the blue lined ticking.  I don't have a mic to measure their thickness, so I'll try em both and go with the one which shoots the best.  I've washed and dried them like I read here.  So, once the moose milked patched ball is short started, you pull the ticking up around the ball and cut off at the muzzle, right?  Since I don't have a patch knife yet, I guess it's ok to use my ol'timer, don't you think? Also, I thought I read where someone cut their ticking into strips.  When I'm done with a strip, I assume it should look something like those dot candy paper strips we all use to eat as kids. A strip with a bunch of holes in it.  Am I on the right track here folks.  Gosh, sorry to bother you with these questions as I feel I should have researched all this when I purchased the rifle 25 year ago.  Been buying all that stuff ever since.  Thanks again. :grin:

[crow_feather]

skippy 10Z,

Are you crazy?  "Sorry to bother you with questions?"  Hey! thats what we enjoy doin.  Writen and answerin questions about black powder shootin.

On your patches, you can cut them into squares before you get to the range or cut them as you indicated.  A square patch shoots as good as a round one.  As long as the patch covers the ball, or the widest part of it, you will be O K.

The Moose Milk oil that I use is the Sta-Lube water soluble oil.  I believe that it is used for metal cutting machines that use water to keep things cool.  The oil mixes with the water, provides lubrication under high heat conditions, and has a corrosion inhibitor in it.  Nice! huh.

My local auto parts store ordered it for me, but in a larger town, machine shops should be able to help you out.  Let your fingers do the walking.  

 Remember that the older made rifles used to require so many shots through the barrel before it would settle down and shoot well.  

I wish you the best of luck with your shootin.  

C F

[KING]

You are on the right track so far.  Just remember each gun is an entity unto itself,and each has thier own little quirks to make them shoot where you want them to.  You have the right idea with the candy strip type thingie.  Just remember that when you tear off a strip of patching material that it is somewhat overly wide for the ball that you are using.  Once short started,just cut the excess off..An old razor makes for a very good patch knife also.  As for taking 25 years to purchase all of the stuff that you need vs what you think that you need................will be a never ending process.  I know......like I needed a Gibbs target rifle......aint even pulled the trigger on it yet.........but........I sure needed it.  And that new powder horn and short starter,and possible bag,Bowie knife combo with the bag......................Oh never mind.  I see something in a mag that looks............................stay safe.........King

[lostid]

"goog", "Dutch Schoultz"

read,,that's the truth..The best $15 I ever spent was on the "system".

[boondocker]

Hi Skippy
  If you have a napa auto parts store near you  can get water soluble machine oil in pints for under six bucks.  My mix is 2 parts machine oil, 2 parts murpheys soap and 10 parts water. Shake it  up and it stays mixed like milk. I use 1 of those 12 oz water bottles with the spout minus the label dont want no one chugging this lol. Works well and really helps with the clean up also. I have to try that pillow ticking as I use wifeys old clothes now if they mike about .012 or close. Works for me.  Steve

[RussB]

Hi Skippy
  If you have a napa auto parts store near you  can get water soluble machine oil in pints for under six bucks.  My mix is 2 parts machine oil, 2 parts murpheys soap and 10 parts water. Shake it  up and it stays mixed like milk. I use 1 of those 12 oz water bottles with the spout minus the label dont want no one chugging this lol. Works well and really helps with the clean up also. I have to try that pillow ticking as I use wifeys old clothes now if they mike about .012 or close. Works for me.  Steve

Hi Steve, et all. I guess Moose Milk is a lot like Ed's Red in the sense it seems to "change" periodicaly. My mixture of "Moose Milk" is very similar to yours except I add Rubbing Alcohol.  No particular reason, just the way I learned to do it, and that was many years ago.
4oz. Machine Oil
4oz. Murphy's Soap
4oz. Isoprophyl Rubbing alcohol
20oz. Plain water
I have been told the alcohol aids in the drying of the mixture once it's applied.  I can't say for sure there is any truth in this, as I have never tried "Moose Milk" made any other way.  
It may be something you want to try. It's cheap to make, and 32oz. of this stuff seems to last forever. I'm certainly not saying my way is best, just something you may want to try.
Respectfully, Russ

[quickdtoo]

I found this for a new recipe...

http://home.insightbb.com/~morganco.lr/shooting.htm

[Ramrod]

Hey skippy, all these concoctions work on the target range, where you will be firing the shot soon after loading. But, if you are going hunting, you need an oil or critter-based lube that won't soak into your charge after a half or whole day carrying the gun. Anything from olive oil, ATF, or neatsfoot oil, to lard, mink oil, bear grease, mutton tallow or whatever roadkill squeezings you have can work. This is how it was done in the old days, they loaded up and left it for long periods. Water based lubes won't cut it.

[crow_feather]

Instead of using WD 40 or oil in your bore, I would suggest that you use a bore butter or other natural rust preventative that hasn't got oil in it.  It seems that the oil residue in the barrel becomes like asphalt after a few shots with black powder or pyro.

[RussB]

Instead of using WD 40 or oil in your bore, I would suggest that you use a bore butter or other natural rust preventative that hasn't got oil in it.  It seems that the oil residue in the barrel becomes like asphalt after a few shots with black powder or pyro.

...........................................................................................................

Crow Feather, I'm in total agreement with this statement, and very glad to see it.
When allowed to dry WD40 creates a varnish base, after repeated uses.  This "base" is very similar to Old English furniture polish or varnish. It is possibly one of the worst of all the water displacement lubricants for leaving this deposit. I have seen guns just plain "gum up" to where they wouldn't work any more due to the use of WD40.

Not to take anything away from WD40. It has it's place, and can be used very successfully,if wipped clean after each application. When it comes to Water Displacement, WD40 probably outsells any of the other products.
It is probably at its best when used with Black Powder, as opposed to smokeless. Simply because there are fewer working parts, and it is easier to complete dry all the parts exposed. And, because many of us use hot soap water (or warm water) to wash the barrel of our black powder guns with.  The lock should be cleaned and oiled periodically, but without the use of WD40.

The formula for WD40 is possibly one of the best for a Water Displacement Lubricant, but ALL of these products have the same drawback when it comes to firearms. Gun oil is gun oil. Although there are several very good substitutes of lubricant for this purpose....3 in 1 oil comes to mind..., it is best to use a product labeled as "GUN OIL". Even better for black powder is one of the "Natural" oils such as Bore Butter.

Like many others, I'm very guilty of using WD40. I've used it for years. But that was before I learned what it does. I'm sure there are 3, possibly even 5, cans of WD40 in the shop right now. But I don't use it on my guns unless I know I'm going to clean it off right now.
I'm sorry I got long winded on this. But it is something everybody should weigh before using it religously.
Respectfully, Russ

[Longcruise]

Hey skippy, all these concoctions work on the target range, where you will be firing the shot soon after loading. But, if you are going hunting, you need an oil or critter-based lube that won't soak into your charge after a half or whole day carrying the gun. Anything from olive oil, ATF, or neatsfoot oil, to lard, mink oil, bear grease, mutton tallow or whatever roadkill squeezings you have can work. This is how it was done in the old days, they loaded up and left it for long periods. Water based lubes won't cut it.

My experience is the opposite.  If one goes to the local NAPA auto parts store and purchases a bottle of "Soluble Cutting & Grinding Oil" (NAPA part #765-1526) one can make a dandy moose milk solvent and patch lube.

For patch lube, mix in the 5/1 to 7/1 water/sol oil range.  Wet your patching material and squeeze out the excess and then let them dry before you shoot  This is a dry lube once the water has evaporated and it will not contaminate your powder and will function as an excellent patch lube.  This works similar to the Lehigh Valley lube that you can use wet or dry, however I've no idea what the LV lube is made of other than that it has alcohol in it.

For moose milk (cleaning and wiping solvent) mix at 10/1 water/sol oil and you will find it quite agreeable, I think.

Have never used Murphy's oil soap in my mix but what can it hurt?? :grin:

[boondocker]

Hi RussB
I got this recipe off the net and I am always trying new things and I am going to give yours a whirl also. Probably good in the cold weather. I just bought a yrd of pillow ticking and gonna give it a whirl, nice red stripes.

 Longcruise
I havent tried it without the Murphey"s but it seem to work well with it and dont smell have bad.   Steve

[quickdtoo]

Boondocker, I don't know if you've learned this yet, but to save you some trouble, make sure the ticking is 100% cotton or you'll regret ever shooting it. A lot of ticking now is made with synthetics. If ya got cotton, great, just make sure to wash it 2-3 times to get the sizing out of it or when mixed with the moosemilk it can turn in to a slimy mess.

[crow_feather]

Now I'm not one to argue a fact, but I seem to recall that blue pillow ticking of the same thickness is more accurate than red pillow ticking.  I believe that it has to do with the grey of the lead ball and the black of the powder.   I'm not sure how it works, but it does seem to be just that way.............cept in flinters. Thats where the red pillow ticking comes into it's own.  Always shoot red with a flinter.

C F

[Longcruise]

Now I'm not one to argue a fact, but I seem to recall that blue pillow ticking of the same thickness is more accurate than red pillow ticking. I believe that it has to do with the grey of the lead ball and the black of the powder. I'm not sure how it works, but it does seem to be just that way.............cept in flinters. Thats where the red pillow ticking comes into it's own. Always shoot red with a flinter.

Being a cap gun shooter I'll not comment on the red in flinters, but Crowfeather you are dead right on the blue vs red in cap guns!

The other thing is there is some stuff out there with no stripes at all and it will ruin your rifle.  Takes the rifling right out of it and makes it into a smoothie.  Course that's desireable according to some people :-)

[crow_feather]

Gives them an excuse for missing the big one

[S.S.]

I have found something that I actually like
shooting better than pillow ticking. It is called Muslin!
(Not Muslim, But I have seen a few of those recently
that I would like to stuff with FFG and throw a spark
to their butt too!) Any how, this is a material that
my "Maw-&-Law" makes dolls out of. It is a very
dense weave cotton material that Holds up great
when fired.  It is easier to find than pillow ticking
sometimes too. I use the traditional Original patch lube!
I think of the patch as a chew of tobacco for a few minutes!
(For conical bullets I use Crisco)

 I keep the cleaning of my BP guns simple,
Hot water and a squirt of dish washing detergent.
or sometimes just hot water. Then a nice coating
of 3 in 1 oil.  been doing it that way
for almost 30 years and have not had a problem yet.

And just for the record, Most of my muzzle loaders are
pretty well adjusted to integration so Patch color really doesn't matter
to them!
 :grin:

[quickdtoo]

I've used lots of different fabrics over the years as patch material. Bull denim makes great patches and is available in white. It's so strong, I reused em several times!  My criteria is 100% cotton, strong, won't shred when shot and the right thickness and compressability. The local fabric stores ladies were a bit dismayed at first when I was in their stores with my micrometer, but after a while they just ignore me, politely... :lol:

[RussB]

"The local fabric stores ladies were a bit dismayed at first when I was in their stores with my micrometer, but after a while they just ignore me, politely... "
............................................................................................................
Kinda funny, the questions you get from those who know fabrics.
ie, How much is 10,000's???......Is .001 the thread size?? Is .001 the weave??? What's does that funny little thing in your hand do??? We don't use THINGS like that. Have you tried lace?, it has "thick" threads., And on, and on.

Yep, they shore do look at ya kinda funny. I found it best to NEVER ask questions in their little world. They ask questions I could never answer, and the majority of my questions go unanswered....So, I just look and measure. both parties are happy that way.
Russ

[skippy 10Z]

Thank you all so much.  You have covered this topic very well for me.  Longcruise, I'm going to stop by NAPA tomorrow with the part number you provided. I do have a question regarding the following.

 Longcruise wrote; "For patch lube, mix in the 5/1 to 7/1 water/sol oil range. Wet your patching material and squeeze out the excess and then let them dry before you shoot This is a dry lube once the water has evaporated and it will not contaminate your powder and will function as an excellent patch lube. This works similar to the Lehigh Valley lube that you can use wet or dry, however I've no idea what the LV lube is made of other than that it has alcohol in it.

You use the above for hunting, and I'll be sure to try it out this fall.  But at the range do you use the above wet, after you squeze out the excess, or are you also drying them out before you go to the range?

[KING]

:-D Well........................I have been asked that question several times about that funny thingie in my hand while at the fabric type store..............For what it is worth,Muslin is great for a patch material.  If you find something that you might think will work,by all means try it.  The problem seems to come up with if it is or has any synthetics in it.  A simple way to find out is to take a small sample and light it with a match(not a wise thing to do inna store........by the way).  At any rate,after ignition if it crawls around as it burns or creeps it is not a pure natural material.  Some other fabrics that I have used with good to excellant results is cotton duck,jean material,muslin,pillow ticking..and believe it or not...red shop rags.  Also Irish linen woks well. but,again it has to be pure in make up.  Stay safe....King

[crow_feather]

skippy 10Z,

At the range a damp patch- wet it, squeeze it - does well. Just not wet enough that it will make mush out of your powder.

King,
Just try to find Irish Linnen these days!

C F

[quickdtoo]

The irish linen I found was not my idea of something I would want to cut into patches for shooting, it was too damned expensive! If you'd seen it in a catalog, it would have been listed as POR!!! (Price on Request) :cry:

[KING]

:-D   I know about the linen.  I have a very small amount left from a purchase several years ago.  I kinda have a standing order from where I had moved from.............I check in several times a year to see if they might have gotten some in........so far...................nada.    .......stay safe....King :cry:  :cry:

[crow_feather]

King,

Of course when you get some - you'll remember your friends?  
                     

[Longcruise]

You use the above for hunting, and I'll be sure to try it out this fall. But at the range do you use the above wet, after you squeze out the excess, or are you also drying them out before you go to the range?

I usually dry them out before going to the range.  If I run low while shooting I go ahead and wet some more (i use strips of patching rather than pre-cut) and hang them to dry while shooting.  If they don't get completely dry I go ahead and shoot them anyway.  Accuracy or POI may vary from wet to dry but I've never switched during a match and not tested it on paper.

I always wipe between shots even back when I used the 1000+ plus lube that supposedly did not require wiping between shots.  It's all about consistency.

Nice thing about dry patches is if your doing a trail walk, small game hunting or just roving and shooting dirt clumps, you can put a small cut in the patching and button it onto a button hole.  since it's dry, no mess :-)

For big game hunting I usually carry a couple speed loaders and leave it at that.  I always reload immediatley if my animal does not drop within my sight but have not used a follow up shot for over 25 years.

Good luck, hope it works out for you too.

[offhand35]

:lol: Well, I made up some of that moose milk powder solvent with RussB's recipe of 4parts Murphy's Oil Soap/4 parts soluble machine oil from NAPA/4part 70% Isopropyl Alchohol/20parts water, except I made a 1/2 gallon of the stuff.....just double those numbers....to make 64

Got to the range for a few hours, and tried it out. My cleaning patches between shots actually came up dirtier that when I use T/C No. 13 Bore Cleaner....or so it seemed anyway.  I am very happy with the way it cleaned up my bore at the range and for the final clean up at home later....

The fun part came at the range. I had a different patch material I wanted to try, so I  dampened the patches with some of that moose milk mixture, loaded up and let fly......the people next to me wanted to know what that small blue flame was dropping beyond my muzzle flash.....I got a very good group at 50yds with that load, but all the patches were badly blown, AND burnt to a crisp!!!! :-D   .....forgot about the alchohol in that mix.... :roll:

[Ramrod]

Well I for one don't want to go anywhere near the blue flames "dropping  beyond my muzzle flash", so I'll ask this. If I were to put "water soluble oil" on my patches, and let them dry, am I correct in assuming that it is mostly the water drying off? If so then I'm left with patches that just have oil on them right? Am I doing something really silly by skipping the water and just using oil or grease?

[lostid]

if you put nothing but "water soluble oil" on your patches there would be nothing there to dry.
 and "oil or grease" as you say is not , I presume, the same as "water soluble oil".(grease? what grease?)
 (please note: I did not "assume"!!)
 Mixing water soluble oil(WSO) with water, saturating a medium with said mixture,then allowing the water to evaporate from the medium will leave what? huh? what's left after the water evaporates? This is Jr High stuff(part of what they call "critical thinking")

 Geez,if you mix 1 part water to 1 part WSO,and allow the water to evaporate,, from the medium,
 then you mix 10 parts water to 1 part WSO and allow the water to evaporate,,from another but same medium,, which one will have the most WSO remaining in the medium?,,(is that the "grease" your talkin about?)

 The "Moose Milk" RussB gave wasn't meant to be a patch "Lube" it's a cleaning agent! I Know RussB personal,,he sent me bullets and ball just last year for the askin,,and he don't mean his MM to be used as lube!

so don't mix up MM use, as same as a  lube,and then don't mix up WSO with "grease",,,,,,ya'all got three different topics goin on here. Nowonder ya all fight all the tyme,,

[jgalar]

I have bought pillow ticking from wal-mart. At the store it miked out around .015 after washing it mikes out around .023 and is to  thick to use.