Rifle, scope, and ammunition needs for treestand hunter

[Buckfever]

I have always wondered if any Tree stand hunters thought about how their style of hunting requires a different view of a rifle, scope and ammunition.  For example:
- most shots under 100yards therefore super fast calibers maybe a problem.
-because you are close you need a better than average bullet if you hit a shoulder.
-a scope has to give both a wide field of view and major magnification to check out antlers in the brush, 3-9.
- because deer are close a quiet saftey is necessary.
-plastic tipped bullets may expand from a small twig before they hit the deer.
- smaller gun profiles are better for moving in the stand.

These are just a few thoughts I am interested in what others have found out by tree stand hunting.

Thanks  Buckfever

[Catfish]

I don`t care if your hunting from a tree stand or from the ground, the most important thing is at what range your shots will be. For the ranges your talking the good old .30-30 would be and excellant choice. For an inexpenecive gun one of the NEF single shots would be an excellant choice. As for a scope I would recomand that you use a 2 1/2 X scope. They will give you a better point of aime than is nessary, they are small, they weigh next to nothing, your field of viewsion is very large meaning you`ll find your target faster, and they are the best you can get in low lite. If you want to see his rack you`ll have no trouble at 100 yrds. with a 2 1/2 X, if he`s farther out use your bino`s.
I`ve got a 7.62 x 39 on a Turkish Mauser action that is ideal also. Balstics about the same as the .30-30, it`s small lite and wears a 2 1/2 X Leupold scope. Shoots real good with the Russian soft point ammo, and I can buy the stuff cheaper than I can reload for it. It`s the only centerfire gun I own that I shoot factory ammo in.

[litman252]

I do quite a bit of hunting from stands.  In shotgun areas, I use the Win. 1300 with sabots and a red dot scope.   It shoots very well out to 125 yards and has the power to do the job.
For a rifle, I don't like a scope over ~8 power on the high end in this area.  Most all my rifles wear 1.5-4 or 2-7 with a 4x for good measure.  I also have a Win. 94 with a peep sight.  I would rather have a low power scope for close shooting, 100yds is not that far, as it is easier to find the target and follow them as the are moving.  I have yet to shoot past 150 yards as of yet, no need for me to do so.
Calibers are 30-30, .243 and 30-06.  My 7mmSTW is on reserve for out west.  In all calibers I use a soft point, no need to get fancy for me.  I have not used this .243 yet but my Dad's worked great with basic bullets.  For the 30-06, in my demented mind a sp bullet is more than enough for the caliber.  And what else to use in 30-30??
YMMV,
Tony

[CzaRon]

You don't need premium bullets for deer at any range and you should use binoculars to check antlers.That "deer" you are checking out with your scope just might not be a deer but someone who is " dear" to someone else.Would you like to be in someone else's sights yourself?

[Lawdog]

Buckfever,

You don't need premium bullets for deer at any range

I am sorry to disagree with this statement.  The use of a cheap bullet is a sure fire guarantee of wounding a nice trophy with a bullet that will break apart on larger bones.  I don't care what big game animal it is always use the best bullet you can get when hunting.  Save the cheap bullets for practice.  Stay away from plastic tipped bullets like Ballistic Tip, Hornady SST's and the like.  They don't always stay together after hitting a bone.  A bullet like the Nosler Partition is cheap insurance when the trophy of a lifetime shows up and the angle isn't perfect.  Small groups to all.  Lawdog
 

[Buckfever]

Gentleman I hunt in Canada and Northern Minnesota and the cover is quite thick with underbrush.  You can hear both men and deer well before you see them, especially men if you ever see anybody.  In both cases I am at least 5 miles off the road(ATV)before walking to the stand, and have never seen anything other than animals this far in, all types of animals including Timberwolves and Moose.  The reason you want to use your rifle scope is you can catch a glimpse of his rack and see if it merits a further view.  If you are moving in the treestand to get binoculars or pick up and set down the gun he will hear you.  These deer are close!  After he warrants your attention then you have to find a small opening to shoot through.  This is all done with the minimum of motion and noise or you are busted.

10-4 the premium bullet if you hit a shoulder at 40 yards.

I also forgot two other items a pee jug for the whole day and plenty of hand and foot warmers.   Buckfever

[SLAVAGE]

this year will be the first year hunting out of a stand with a gun at least,
im going with a 454 or a 500  encore 16 incher with a red dot scope thinking of the higher end bushnell cause you can change the cross hairs an such but with the 16 barrel it will have the full size forearm that way its a good steady point to sitdown on a cross bar of a stand an sence its under 100 yards you dont nead pin point shots that you nead a strong powered scope all so to move quick an such an carry it an out of the woods its a pistol but i was going with a folding stock it says out of the way an just incase i do nead to take a shot out past 100 yards i can smack the stock back an take all the brace an aim shot that is neaded to put the bullet were it counts so it gives me the best of both words like that
dave

[safetysheriff]

From the deer I've seen taken by a nuisance-hunting landowner - using 55 gr' Hornady spire points out of a .223 -  including one 250 lb'er that was head-on, chest-shot at about 75 yds' into the heart, I'll take a Hornady spire point in .224 diameter or larger over any 'premium' bullet out there -- for deer.    The hunter was on the ground and shot through the bone in front of the heart, with the bullet exiting his belly fairly far back of there!    I'd prefer a .243 or larger (87 gr' Hornady Spire Point in the .243) if the deer weighs over 300 lbs.    But a head, neck, or lung shot on a very large whitetail should work with that 55 gr' Spire Point.      

In other words, I'd expect most U.S. deer in the lower 48 States to fall easily to a Spire Point, even if out of a .223 and shot in the shoulder blade at a reasonable distance.     For better penetration you can use the 60 gr' Spire Point that Hornady loads for deer in their .22-250 Custom Ammunition series.

[Iowegan]

Buckfever, I don't see where a tree stand gun should be any different than a brush gun for "walk hunting". A good old 30-30 lever comes to mind.  Low power scopes are best. A pair of pocket binos are a must.

Safetysheriff,  223s or 22-250s are not legal in most states for deer hunting.  The average hunter would probably wound more game than they kill.  A knowledgable hunter with good shot placement could easily take out a deer with a either but most good hunters would want to ensure a kill with a larger caliber.

[acearch72]

From the deer I've seen taken by a nuisance-hunting landowner - using 55 gr' Hornady spire points out of a .223 - including one 250 lb'er that was head-on, chest-shot at about 75 yds' into the heart, I'll take a Hornady spire point in .224 diameter or larger over any 'premium' bullet out there -- for deer. The hunter was on the ground and shot through the bone in front of the heart, with the bullet exiting his belly fairly far back of there! I'd prefer a .243 or larger (87 gr' Hornady Spire Point in the .243) if the deer weighs over 300 lbs. But a head, neck, or lung shot on a very large whitetail should work with that 55 gr' Spire Point.

I would suggest that the 'nusiance hunting landowner' really didn't give a care as to if the deer died in it's tracks or several days later.  He just wanted it 'dead'.  In my book, this should not be considered hunting, this is crop protection.  

Anyone who says that use of a premium bullet is wasted on game animals has probably only killed paper.  

I totally agree with Lawdog.  You should ALWAYS use the best bullet you can afford.

[Bighorn75]

When I treestand hunt at our farm, I'm usually in areas where I can survey fields out to a 1000 yards in every direction.  In those cases, my ideal treestand rifle is a Weatherby Mark V in .257 Wby with a 3-9x40 scope.  I'm not caring about the extra length or weight of the Weatherby magnum because I'm not going anywhere.  When I'm on the ground still hunting or stalking, which is my preferred method--a model 94 Winchester in 30WCF and a model 99 Savage in .300 Savage (both with peep sights) are my choices.  Either way, I never hunt without a good pair of binoculars and I use them constantly.

[safetysheriff]

I guess I struck a nerve.    

No, my nuisance-hunting landowner in the post above does care about properly harvesting the deer!     The accuracy and terminal performance of the Hornady bullet in that particular rifle has afforded him a good number of very clean deer harvests.     It seems to me to give the lie to claims that a .22 caliber high-power rifle is not enough for most deer hunting.

I admit, however, that if it's illegal in your state then you don't want to use it.    

The point however was that Hornady spire point bullets are a generally an excellent product.....seemingly accomplishing deer-harvesting tasks out of proportion with the expectations of many.    I wouldn't look for any other bullet if going after deer, and I'd use a spire point in an appropriate caliber for most other hunting chores in North America.

Take care.

[razmuz]

What does Mr Lawdog mean by "don't use cheap bullets?"  Surely he's not referring to Core Locks or Power Points that have killed more game than anything out there.  Is there anything cheaper than those?

[Snowshoe]

I have never had a Hornady, or Winchester bullet fail in my .30-30, and I have beed shooting big Canadian whitetails for 30 years. That said I have seen poor results with Nosler partitions fired from a .270 at max velosity on 2 occasians. The need for realy good bullets increases with speed. Many in the north of this country use .30-30's and standard 170g corelock bullets on big moose. The advertisers have had thier way with selling super magnums and super dooper bullets. Just my take on things.

[Lawdog]

Mr. razmuz,

Any bullet that fragments when hitting a bone is a cheap bullet.  That includes Remington's Core Loks or Winchester's Power Points.  Both have a record of fragmenting when striking bone.  Add in Hornady's SST's and Nosler Ballistic Tips to that batch.  Sure they have accounted for a number of game animals killed but they have also accounted for a number of wounded animals because of fragmented bullets.  Not even Remington or Winchester calls Core Loks or Power Points premium bullets.  Lawdog
 

[CzaRon]

Lawdog, what real documentation do you have to validate your statements?Unprovable personal experience doesn't count.

[acearch72]

I will offer an answer for Lawdog that I am sure will be similar to his own response, because of the fact that this is the truth and I have experienced it many times.  I will relate some personal experiences on cheap bullets.  Believe them or not, certainly each individual's perogitive.

I always used 160 gr nosler partitions in my 7mm rem mag.  Always with fine results.  If the animal didn't just drop there was always a good blood trail to follow.  

Then a good friend in Texas convinced me to purchase a 264 winchester magnum.  And basically I loved the gun, however not having time to hand load I was limited to factory ammo with 'cheap' bullets.  I noticed an immediate change in hunting results (bullet performance).  Shallow penetration with lots of surface damage but little internal damage.  Wounded animals with no blood trail which relates into lost animals.  I have since found a source of premium handloads for the 264 as well, and once I started using the nosler partitions in the 264 all those above problems went away.

Anyway, a couple of years ago I handed the 264 down to my son.  Well you know kids have got to get the last amount of speed from a round, so he changed from the partitions to the nosler ballistic tips to get that last 50 or so fps.  Guess what?  Same results as with the 'cheap' bullets.  No penetration.  No blood trail.  Lost animals.  And this is not necessarily a case of bad bullet placement, it was a case of if the animal didn't just fall and not move it was lost due to absolutely NO penetration.

So you can ask for documented proof all you want and likely unless someone has some 'gross' pictures of butched deer to post, you won't get it.  However I can assure you that it exists.

Will cheap bullets kill deer?  Most certainly they will.  Will premium bullets kill deer even more dead than cheap bullets?  Certainly they won't.  Will premium bullets kill deer more consistentantly under more adverse conditions than cheap bullets?  Most definately they will.

So if you can be certain that you will never shoot more than 200 yards and keep you velocities down to 2500 fps, then cheap bullets are the way to go.  But if you want to shoot out to 500 yards with a relatively flat shooting rifle, which means a high muzzle velocity, you have to use a premium bullet to assure any reasonable chance of success.

Of course, this is my opinion.  Shoot them cheap ones if you want to, but personally I don't like to lose animals that have been wounded, so I will stick with the premium bullets.

[smoky]

My short range/brush country set up is this

Rem 700 short action in 7mm-08 AI
Hart 20" barrel
McMillan Model 7 Stock
Leupold Vari X III 3.5-10 x 40

The only reason this is a custom gun and not an off the shelf model 7 is that I am left handed and an off the shelf as mentioned in not available in LH.

But, I built this gun for the exact type of hunting you are talking about, and I made it this way for several reasons.  They are...

Caliber:  7-08 AI.  The 7-08 is a super caliber.  Accurate and high performing.  I choose to ackley improve it because 1. It did not cost any extra and I hand load.  2. If I decide to make it a longer range gun, it will duplicate .280 velocities.  I think any caliber built off of the .308 parent case is a super woods and open range to 250+ yards choice.

Action:  Rem 700 short action.  I may offend some here, but in general, a bolt action is going to be more accurate than a lever, pump or automatic.  Some folks think that it is ok to sacrifice a little accuracy because you are taking close in shots, but I have found this just the opposite.  I have killed several bucks under 75 yards by shooting them through small openings in the brush.  To do this you have to have 1. the ability to shoot well and 2. An accurate caliber/bullet.  Bottom line is the 7-08, 3-08, .260, etc. calibers have that inherent accuracy, with much better choices of accurate and performance bullets than can be had in a lever action, or even an auto or pump gun.  A gun like this will almost always out shoot a slug gun as well.

Barrel:  Coupling a medium taper, 20 inch barrel with a short action just makes for a handy deer rifle that is easy to swing and point when up a tree.  

Stock:  Choosing a rifle with a synthetic stock just makes sense to me when that gun will be subjected to briars, brush, creeks, swamps, etc.

Scope:  I will disagree with several here and say that a good variable power scope in the 2 x 7,  3 x 9, or 3.5 x 10 range is best.  Why because of what I mentioned under Actions.  That is to shoot in tight spots, I need a scope that allows me to aim small and is of rugged quality.  Also, I need the ability to use it as my binoculars in those situations because most of the time, time is of the escence and sometimes I must acquire the target, judge if its a shooter and make the shot, all in a few seconds (Now before anyone gets upset about the last statement, please understand that I NEVER look at something through my scope that is not a game animal that can legally be taken).  I have found that I can (and have) shoot accurately on 3.5 power at about 20 feet, so the need to go smaller on magnification is not an issue for me.

My set up loaded with a sling, ready to hunt, weighs about 7.5 pounds.  Not a mountain rifle, but not cumbersome either.


One other thought.  Except for its single round capacity, an Encore with a 24 inch barrel will measure from end to end about the same as a bolt gun with a 20 inch barrel.   It may be a litte heavier, but would also be handy and extremely versitle and could handle the situation you mention plus different shooting situations as they arrive.

Just my two cents,

Smoky

[Lawdog]

czarninakid,

Lawdog, what real documentation do you have to validate your statements?Unprovable personal experience doesn't count.

What documentation do you have to validate that Core Loks, Power Points, Ballistic Tips, etc. are not cheap bullets?  And like you said manufacture hype and/or your experiences doesn’t count.  Sure some spectacular kills have been made with them but 10 spectacular kills do not make up for one lost animal.  Oh and by the way premium bullets make the same type spectacular kills all the time withou the lost animals.  And we are NOT talking about bad bullet placement here either.

I do not carry a camera around my neck just to take pictures of game killed and especially pictures of what the innards look like after a bullet has destroyed them.  I actually know people that don’t care to look at pictures of gutted animals and lost animals are very hard to take a picture of anyway(hard to get them in focus).  I have seen what happens to animals that have been shot with those bullets.  The unnecessarily long tracking jobs that cheap bullets have caused.  The needless pain and suffering caused due to their use.  But what counts the most with me is what I have had happen, more than just one time.  Results from other hunters that have had the same type of results using these bullets do validate my statements.  If the few extra penny’s a person saves using cheap bullets is going to make a retirement then I guess I will never retire because I intend to keep spending the few cents extra on premium bullets.  Lawdog
 

[CzaRon]

Lawdog,                                                                                                Since neither one us can offer each other the proof to satisfy the other , I guess it's safe to say we agree that we disagree. I find it refreshing that you took my guff without resorting to personal abasement and now  know you to be  a gentleman that anyone should be honored to be in the company of and whose opinion and advice  is well worth considering . I've got in to the "habit" of putting a lot of the "experts" that peruse these forums and others on the spot just to get their reaction.I'm sure you have seen many cases where a simpe question or difference of opinion brings out the a__ hole in many users. A tip of my hat to you.

[Blaine]

I think that whether you hunt from a tree stand or the ground, the most important thing is to identify your target. I don't believe that using your scope to do that is the safest thing to do. If you are worried more about not spooking the deer with your movement than you are about endangering someone by pointing a gun at them ...you are taking this hunting thing far too seriously.
By the way, I have used a Savage 110 (left handed) in 270 Win with a Redfield 2X-7X set down on about 3X for my tree stand hunting. This set-up has served me well for more seasons that I care to admit. This year I am planning on using my new T/C Encore in 308 Win with a Simmons 2X-6X handgun scope.

Blaine

[rickt300]

I have two treestand rifles. My favorite is a 7mm mauser with a 19 inch medium sporter barrel topped with a 2x7 scope.  I shoot 160 grain Speer Hotcor spitzers and never have I experienced bullet blow up just good exit holes and dead deer.  The other is a simolar rifle in 308 that I shoot 165 grain pointed corelocts and I feel this rifle has no peers except I like the 7 better due to it's slightly heavier barrel which holds a bit steadier.   I have hit a lot of deer with both these rifles and have yet to recover a bullet.  These  rifles have taken a good number of hogs too and these more truculent beasts will test a bullet, guess what they go thru.

[7magWoodsman]

Firstly I hunt mostly in Ky/Tn in thick growed up stuff and I consider myself a stalker while Im hunting but it is not uncommen when  I climb up a tree. I dont always have a stand but that is talk for another day.
I hunt with a Ruger M77 7mag 24inch barell with a 3x-9x 40mm scope and use Remington CORE-LOKT factory loads. I have never had a problem with this set up and will never consider another. It comes down to if your comfortable and experienced with the firearm you are using.
     I also agree with carrying binoculars for identifiing game and never use my rifle for such chores in my opinion when hunting from a tree a good pair of binos and a good knife is a far more important than a shorter rifle. But if you are looking for a reason to buy a new rifle go for it, if not use what your comfortable with.
     For the record I have NEVER lost an animal using a CORE-LOKT.

[squirrel_hunter6]

Howie1968, the moderator of the Hog/Wild Boar Hunting Forum has been using "cheap" bullets and having good success with them. He has killed hogs with 170gr CorLokts out of 30-30 and never lost a hog with them. In his most recent posts he is using a 308 with Winchester Power Points and is getting complete pass through.

Check that forum some time. Its pretty cool and Howie1968 is a good moderator. He's always showing new pictures.

[Daniel]

Practically 99.9% of my deer hunting takes place in stands or tripods. As a result, I consider every rifle I have to be a treestand rifle because I try to use them all at least once during deer season, which in my part of the country extends for about 2 months.  My main deer rifles include a .30-06 pre-64 Win 70, 7mm mag Sako 75, .300 Weatherby Sako 75 and model 1891 7.65mm Arg. Mauser. Shots generally range from 10 yards to about 150 yards. All my rifles are scoped except for the old Mauser.

As far as bullets go, I tend to agree with Lawdog, etal. I don't like to compromise with the one and only component that actually does the killing. I prefer the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Nosler Accubond. I'm going to work up a load soon with the Hornady Interbond and give it a try this year.

[Mac11700]

Get a Marlin 1895 in 45-70,.load it up with some Nosler 300 grain partitions...put a Leupold 2x7x33 scope on it and your good out to 200 yards or so...works like a charm on deer...or just about anything else you would care to hunt...a great winning combination this one is

Mac

[cam69conv]

Ok On the "cheap bullets" thing...I also have had bad experiance with the rem core junk...example...30.06...deer at 25 yards...Shot deer...broadside..Lungs...deer ran 100 yards...got to deer...deer tried gorin me to death...shot deer in spine right between shoulders..point plank range...guess what I found...BOTH BULLETS IN DEER...Sorry but in my opinion that is just pee poor performance. Example on "premium bullets" Hornady interlok...same 30.06..deer 175 yards...broadside shot..double lung...deer went 11 yards...deer dead...30.06 hole in right side of deer...3.5 inch hole in other side of deer....any questions on performance? NOw as far as you needin a good tree stand weapon..#1 you have to be comforatble with whatever you chose..thats the key element..You are pretty much right on in what you were sayin on what you think ya need...But I am in COMPLEAT agreement with a couple of previous statements...NEVER USE YOUR WEAPON TO SEE IF ITS A RACK OR NOT...Always Binoc it first...If you spook a deer then you spook a deer...better to spook a dear then kill someones husband or wife or son or daughter...SAFTY ALWAYS COME FIRST..If I saw my kid doin that Id beat his butt all the way home and then for 3 weeks more..Then Id THINK about lettin him in the woods the next year.. :shock:  thems My 2 cents

[rickt300]

Sure is weird how these guys come up with horror stories about the corelokts and power points.  Since treestand shots are usually under 200 yards I load my rifles to 25-2600 fps or use the factory loads developiing this velocity and can see no problems with ANY bullet properly placed.  I personally have not found premium bullets to produce faster kills than so called non premium bullets and some of the premiums are not well suited to deer hunting at all. The only bullets I have recovered are those that have been found under the hide on the far side of elk or have hit the far shoulder and were found under the hide also.  The last corelokt I used on a game animal was a 150 grainer shot from a 300 Win mag and it hit a 175 pound feral hog just behind the shoulder at 30 yards as he was running. The hog cartwheeled to a stop.  Everything inside the chest was soup and the bullet smashed the offside shoulder joint and blade then bored thru 3/4 inch of hard gristle before stopping just under the hide.  The bullet weighed 65 grains, expanded to 75 calibe and a bit of core was in the base of the bullet.  Where did this bullet go bad?  A standard bullet performed well at pretty extreme impact velocity.

[Mac11700]

I personally have not found premium bullets to produce faster kills than so called non premium bullets and some of the premiums are not well suited to deer hunting at all.

While you may not have...I'm sure others here have found this to be the case...not all tree stand shots come under 200 yards...at least where I hunt....some shots can be up to 600 yards if one was inclind to take the shot.......Using my 257 weatherby as an example...it is stated in all of my manuals to use a premium bullet so it will hold together.

I'm not knocking the corelocks...but the core locks are not comparable to the performance of some of the better bullets in all situations.....and only some of the premium solids or match bullets wouldn't be suitable to deer hunt with my rifle.


Mac

[rickt300]

A 600 yard shot while sitting in a tree? Yeah right.  Your 257 Weatherby is not what I would consider a treestand rifle though it's high velocity would require tougher bullets than my 7x57 or 308.  On the other hand for Whitetails I will say they are both superior to the 257 Weatherby under the circumstances this deer is usually hunted.