Reliable semi autos

[Don McCullough]

Guys,

What's your choice for a reliable semi-auto center-fire rifle.  

Would it be........

Winchester model 100
Remington model 742
Browning BAR
Springfield M-14 (apples and oranges?)

Or what?

Don McCullough

[Thunder38849]

Hi Don,
  My favorite is a Winchester M-100.   I will admit I am biased due to the fact the first M-100 I had was given to me by my father.  He bought the gun new in 1965 and hunted every year with it up until 2002, then gave it to me.   I hunted with it sevral times since then.   I like the feel of the gun, very well balanced.   Has tremendous accuracy for an autoloader and shoots like a dream.  I am currently in the market for a model 100 in .284 and .243, just to complete the collection.

   Don't know anything about the Rem 742 or the M-14 so I can't comment on those.

  As for the BAR..  I have heard good things about those.  But personally, I wouldn't take a Browning if it was given to me....( personal opinion, nothing more)

[smoji]

1st: BAR for ease of maintenance, accuracy and its ability to keep on truckin' even when somewhat neglected. Parts are readily available and relatively easy to replace without specialized tools.
2nd: Remington 7400 . A little more difficult to keep clean and does not generally tolerate much neglect although there are some you can throw in the swamp for the summer and hunt with in the fall. Also, parts are readily available at reasonable prices.
3rd: Remington 742. No longer manufactured. Generally the same assessment as the 7400  but some parts are difficult to obtain and require specialized tools to replace. Long action seems to give fewer problems than short actioon.
4th: Winchester 100: No longer manufactured. Accurate and a nice little rifle to carry around. Does not tolerate neglect. Parts are difficult to obtain and expensive.
I don't have any experience with the Springfield. I would expect it to be very accurate and reliable but also probably pretty heavy.

[BC]

If you want a semi-auto for hunting, buy the BAR with a BOSS and spank some bolt-action tail at the range. I wouldnt trade mine for the fanciest, carbon-fiber wrapped 300+P belchfire magnum out there.

[Don McCullough]

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

I left out a semi-auto that has me curious.  It's the Remington Model 8 made roughly between 1906 and 1936.  I mention this gun because I think it was the main gun (chambered for 35 Rem. ctg.) of Ralph Edwards.

Ralph killed over 50 grizzlies with this gun and an earlier 30-30--probably Win. 94--and he said he then stopped counting.  He lived over 50 years in the wilds of British Columbia, starting in the year 1912.  You can read about this outstanding man in a book titled:  "Crusoe of Lonesome Lake" by Leland Stowe.  Also a later book titled:  "Ralph Edwards of Lonesome Lake" as told to Ed Gould.  Other books by relatives about this area of B.C. if you want to contact me personally.  They are outstanding.

Get them via the internet if you like.  Albris is one source.  Some, maybe all out-of-print.

Don McCullough

[DES]

I've owned all but the M-14, out of the other three the BAR comes in first with the 742/7400 and Win 100 tied for 2nd. My only complaint with the Browning is that it isn't "Made In USA".

[Don McCullough]

I've owned all but the M-14, out of the other three the BAR comes in first with the 742/7400 and Win 100 tied for 2nd. My only complaint with the Browning is that it isn't "Made In USA".

Des,

What specifically regarding reliability was your experience with the Remington, Winchester and BAR?  Are you saying the BAR could be shot a lot more than the others before experiencing jams.  How did they jam or give other problems?

There's got to be a very dependable semi-auto that could be counted on when used for dangerous game.  Especially if you know how to properly care for it and I suppose "keep that chamber clean" would be number one.

Thanks,

Don McCullough

[DES]

I've had 3 different BAR's and had zero problems with reliability. A 742 in '06, a 7400 in .270 Win, and a Win 100 in .243 Win all had failure to feed type jams at one time or another. I'm pretty particular about keeping my firearms clean so I really don't know how much build-up a BAR will take before jamming. They make the BAR in .338 Mag if you're looking for a dangerous game semi-auto.

[targshooter]

:grin:
IMO, a firearm design offers reliability in two main ways: function and durability. The function takes into account a firearm's ability to operate without flaws in performance, that is; jams, shifting impact points, loosening up, etc. Durability is a firearm's capability to provide years of trouble free service without breaking. I believe that of the US offered semi-autos, the Browning BAR and Remington 7400 offer good functioning qualities. When it comes to durability, I believe the Browning outperforms the Remington, but neither can hold a candle to a military design. However, a hunting firearm is designed to point fast like a shotgun (weight and balance) and also have some degree of eye appeal. Hunting with an M-14 or FN-FAL derivative is of course possible (I've used both), but there will be snap shots not made on running animals that would have been possible with the Remington or BAR, which are balanced and built for a certain amount of pointability at game. All that said, I would not consider any of these commercial semi-auto rifles for a dangerous game hunt or where I would be experiencing protracted field conditions (as living in a tent for more than a week), as the maintenance required to keep them functional is too extensive and involves dissembly after a soaking rain that a bolt action does not require. In defense of this statement, I point to the need to remove the forestock on both the BAR and 7400 to get gain access to the gas cylinder mechanism to prevent rust and maintain functionality in just such conditions. You are now faced with the need to ascertain that the rifle's zero has not been compromised. This is a personal consideration of course, and many hunters probably take such firearms afield with no problems when pursuing the big bears or African game (where a semi-auto is legal).

[Don McCullough]

O.K. guys, since no one seems to make a really reliable semi auto center fire rifle--why in the heck not !!

I'm talking a rifle that will be just as reliable as the best of the military semi autos.  I suppose a sporting rifle could be made from M-14's, etc. and probably are.  If so, who makes'em?

Believe the manufacturers are missing a good bet by not supplying us with a stainless steel semi-auto center fire rifle that's as reliable as the best military semi autos.  Talking 308 Win. and larger ctgs. here.

Thanks again for your great replies.

Don McCullough

[Don McCullough]

Just occured to me----it's a shame that the manufacturers have not made a highly reliable semi auto center fire sporting rifle.  (Actually, from what some of you are saying, maybe the BAR is it)

I say it's a shame because lots of people avoid the semi-auto for reliability reasons and yet it represents a great advancement in guns.
Self-loading, just pull the trigger--wonderful!

I'm certain the very best dangerous game gun would be a very reliable semi-auto that I know manufacturers (some at least) could make and make in large calibers.

Don McCullough

[targshooter]

:grin:
Don,
The military spin-off rifles are expensive and just do not handle like a good sporting rifle for carry and snap shooting IMO.
I own the 7400 carbine in .30-06, and it is very accurate, handles and points extremely well for me and is used for local deer hunting. I am aware these are not heavy use rifles, as I had a 742 that was returned to Remington when I used it for firing high power rifle matches. Remington fixed it and in essence told me that they lacked the durability for high power match shooting. I do not like the handling properties of the Browning BAR, again a personal preference. The BAR does seem to be the most durable US design in the sporting semi-auto arena.
H&K offered the SLB 2000, and Benelli now offers the R1. Both are even more expensive than the BAR, and neither has the distribution or field history of the Remington or Browning. The Benelli does handle and point nicely for me, but without history its $1k price tag is too high. I never liked the way the H&K handles. There have been posts in this forum from shooters owning and using both the SLB 2000 and R1 rifles. A post note on the SLB 2000, it was recently discontinued I believe.

[Don McCullough]

Targshooter,

You know your semi-autos!  Thanks for your reply.

Benelli:  Now here's a manufacturer I've heard makes the most reliable semi-auto shotgun.  I assume their semi-auto rifles use the same mechanisim and would thus be equally reliable.

Is recoil operated more reliable, generally, than gas operated semi-autos?
The old Remington Models 8 and 81 were recoil operated vs. today's gas operated guns.  Not sure but believe the Benelli is a little of both and bet you know.

The above Remington's were from none other than John Browning as was the very reliable Browning Auto-5 shotgun which is also recoil operated.  Also the Remington Model 11, I believe, was a copy of the Browning.  Then there was the Remington 11-48 which I think was also recoil operated and had a good reputation.

Don McCullough

[targshooter]

:grin:
Don,
I have had old Browning semi-auto shotguns, the A5 recoil operated type, that just wear out, they don't break, just quit functioning correctly due to lost tolerances based on extreme wear. I purchased a couple of Remington 11s from surplus stores that suffered this fate. One was so worn out it would have needed enough parts that it was economically unsound to restore. The other required about $30 worth of parts, and this was in the early 70s when $30 was a meaningful amount of gun parts.
I have handled the Remington 8 and 81, mostly in the early 70s, when I hunted with old timers in the northern Maine woods who used these rifles. The 8 was heavy, the stock okay, and it was muzzle heavy but fairly well balanced. The 81 was different, and not as well balanced for me, with a somewhat clubby stock. I would not have chosen either for the handling qualities, such a quick shoulder mounting or pointability on running game. These rifles were readily available in those days for very reasonable prices, and I opted to pass. They also seemed to wear out and not break, as one of the old timers had to get worn out parts, not broken, replaced in his old family heirloom Model 8.
There is an article entered in this forum just a few days ago that readily agrees with and details the probable failure of my Remington 742 experience; which was that a 742 suffered a design induced wear out when I tried to use it for heavy duty target shooting.
The only semi-autos which suffered breakage that I've owned or used were the following. A Winchester Model 100 I purchased in the early 70s. Winchester actually had a recall/repair program. It broke at the op rod connection. Also very inaccurate and temperamental about what loads it would accept for functional cycling, accuracy be damned. That rifle was a dog. A Browning semi-auto .22 that had part of the bolt shear off. It was old, but chose to fail this way. The owner had purchased it in the early days of this style's availability, and the rifle broke about 1970, the owner died in his eighties a year later, so that gives you  an idea of the age of the rifle. As he said, it owed him nothing as it had been his heavily used .22 for all his adult life.
I will be asking forum readers to add any SLB or R1 comments shortly, as several R1 owneres have been expressing some misgivings about these rifles on the internet.
Regards

[Malamute]

Don, I might add that none of the available semi-auto sporters are in a caliber that could be considered adequet for dangerous game. Even the BAR in 338 cal is a bit light for anything that would be considered dangerous.
With the implied life threatening situation of dangerous game, not even all bolt guns should automatically be considered reliable enough to stake your life on. There exists a great gulf between a dangerous game rifle and a hunting rifle. Not all rifles are created (or perform) equally. Some are known for failures to extract in some of the high pressure calibers when used in hot, dry, "rustic" environments. Some others have feeding problems when run very fast, or can tend to be slow to manipulate the safety. I haven't, nor do I plan to hunt Africa, but I think the professionals that do make a livelyhood there can teach us something. Nothing short of absolutely flawless operation should be tolerated in a dangerous game rifle.

 For my use in the mountains of Wyoming, and in my future move to Alaska, I prefer the large caliber Browning 1886 lever action in 45/70 with heavy handloads to any bolt or other action type. I have used Winchester and Browning 1886's for about 25 years and have had excellent results with them. If I were going to be on Kodiak, I  might want to carry  my Mauser .458, but for the average (up to 700 or 800lb) grizzlies that live in my neighborhood, and in interior Alaska, the 45/70 with heavy handloads is enough gun. They carry very nicely, and are shorter and faster handling than a bolt gun. I don't think I give up anything in speed of follow-up shots  compared to a semi-auto either.

[Raging480]

The Remington 7400 had been built for the .35 whelen for a few years, but I do not know why they stopped.  It is hard to find these for sale, used, but I've heard people talk about re-chambering a .30-06 model for the .35 whelen.  If I could have a 7400 carbine with a synthetic stock in .35 whelen, I would be pretty happy.

[BattleRifleG3]

A rifle in a sporting configuration in a hunting caliber with military durability and reliability is the EAA Saiga 308.  They are supposed to come out in 30-06, but I'm not holding my breath.

The Saiga is derived from the latest AK action, but is made with a stronger receiver, stronger bolt, and stronger trunion, and is ingeniously adapted for the 308 cartridge.  Also has a semi-heavy barrel that is known for giving better than 2moa.

I would highly recommend one to stand against the Rem 7400.  For BAR or Benelli R1, the magnum round is the only advantage over the Saiga 308.

[Don McCullough]

Fellows,

I wrote the below message way back in July and now am making one more attempt to know for sure which is the most reliable semi-auto sporting rifle.  Now appears I'd be in pretty good shape with the BAR and may buy one.  It'd be the light weight, synthetic stock and chambered for 308 Win.  Believe it has a 20" bbl.

Seems the Browning BAR must be much more reliable and require less cleaning (to ensure reliability) than the Remington's or Winchester 100.

No one's answered me directly about whether the recoil operated semi-auto is more reliable than the gas operated.

I'd say there's a good chance, on average, the recoil operated is the most reliable.  The models 8 and 81 Remingtons are two good examples of this type of action.  Were/are there other recoil operated semi-auto center fire rifles?

Just occured to me if the above were true our military would be using recoil rather than gas operated rifles.

Don McCullough

Guys,

What's your choice for a reliable semi-auto center-fire rifle.  

Would it be........

Winchester model 100
Remington model 742
Browning BAR
Springfield M-14 (apples and oranges?)

Or what?

Don McCullough

[BattleRifleG3]

That's a tough one.  Here's the issue with recoil operation:  The physics of it make it great for pistol caliber rounds.  Full power and intermediate power rounds not so.  Here's why:

Straight blowback requires a cycling bolt of proportionate mass to certain characteristics of the round.  A 45 ACP and a 308 are world apart.  A bolt heavy enough to cycle a 308 in straight blowback would be insanely heavy.  Way too stinking heavy for a hunting arm, that's for sure.

Other systems either add the barrel to that mass, and have that delay the unlocking of the bolt, like most recoil operated pistols and certain few rifles.  To have such a system, you have to provide for the barrel to slide back.

The real piece of work is the roller delayed blowback system used in the HK G3 and kin.  It basically used rollers to transmit the recoiling force of the bolt to the bolt carrier in a way best compared to using a small lever to reduce the force exerted at the end of a longer lever connected at the fulcrum.  This reduces the needed weight of the bolt carrier, and requires a separate bolt.

A gas operated system in a sense is just a mechanical system that cycles a bolt the same way you would operate a pump or bolt action.

So the question is what does it take for each otf these to work properly, and what are they sensitive to?

Without too many complex explanations, of why, I'd say that gas operated systems are the best for hunting rifles.  One reason is that gas systems react better to varied loads, because only a certain section of the pressure curve affects how the system works.  You can also have adjustable gas systems, or have them professionally adjusted, in ways you can't do to a recoil operated gun.

If you want to know the most reliable, look no farther than the AK design.  It is available in calibers up to 308 (30-06 is promised but I'm not holding my breath).  The Saiga 308 is configured much like classic hunting rifles while having every benefit of its military action.