Muzzle Loading Fan

[sabotloader]

I posted this over on the in-line section, but becuse of all the up-roar about in-lines/traditional I thought I would share with you all what got me started in muzzleloading, albeit, it might have been a violation of some standards.

I am not putting this here to make anyone mad or upset it is my fact...

I guess I would like to get in here and say: I may be one of those bad guys CF is talking about... I have hunted in Idaho since the early 50's always with centerfire rifles, well several years ago Idaho started a ML season at the end of the regular season an opportunity to hunt longer. The rules in Idaho, to my knowledge never specified which type of ML for this extended season just needed to be loaded from the muzzle. My first purchase was a Remington ml-700 which i used that first season 6-7 years ago... While hunting, a late season hunting opportunity, started me using ML's I have continued ever since. I rarely ever shoot or use a centerfire at all anymore. My next purchase was a Lyman Trade rifle, I bought that because I didn't want to keep removing my scope and 209 nipple to hunt in our ML season. Now I shoot a "traditional" ML more than I ever shoot a in-line but I am not a traditionalists because again according to Idaho rules I can use sabots and copper clad bullets.

So what all of this does for me is the original thought of an extended hunting season has completely converted me over to ML's during Idaho unique hunting season - Elk season to be specific. I use an in-line (now a A&H) during Regular Elk Season, the Remington during regular deer season, a fast twist Thomson 50 during muzzleloading season and either the Lyman 54 or the Thompson Renegade 54 with a patch and ball during Idaho's primitive season if I choose to take that opportunity.

I am now and I truly believe I am a muzzleloader enthusiasist, if loads from the muzzle I like and I will shoot it if given the opportunity, BUT; all of this started from me trying to take an opportunity to extend my hunting time. Prior to that time I considered my self a centerfire shooter and hunter would have never thought about using anything else - didn't even think about shotguns - they were for woosses.

Now the part that stings the "true traditionalist" I will use the most advanced thing? (projectile, powder, sights, & etc.) that the rules will allow, either during regular, ML, or primitive season; consequently I do shoot sabots and copper clad bullets a majority of the time. I believe this makes me a more effective hunter and decreases MY chances of maiming or wounding animals. I am extremely confident in what I can shoot and when I can shoot with a ML - I know I have to pass some shots that would be a piece cake with the 300.. but you know I don't care it isn't that important any more, I really enjoy being out there with an ML. I also believe if Jim Bridger had had the same opportunities during his time he would have jump all over them. He was the most opportunistic MM, hunter, guide, and business man I have ever read about - to bad his eyes got him... but at my age, I am beginning to know what he might have been going through.

Keep shooting ML's - they are a blast

OOP's I need to amend this I have drawn a line at a savage with smokless and the Ultimate - I'll shoot em but I won't use them - might as well go back to a 308....

[crow_feather]

sabotloader,
I answered your post on the other forum, but I wanted to say thank you for sharing a common thread that might be of interest to both Modern and Traditional.  While I may not care for your equipment (except in the primitive hunt), I would still like to wish you the best of luck this comming season.

C F

[filmokentucky]

It always surprises me that more people don't hunt with .58 caliber rifle muskets. Here you have the advantage of a heavy slug and effective long range sights in what is certainly a traditional firearm. Or, what about a Parker-Hale Whitworth? They've been used to good effect in Africa. Who needs sabots when you can shoot a rifle with this level of power and accuracy? Too bad they don't come in a flint lock version.

[crow_feather]

I tied hunting with a 1853 Enfield using 500 grain minnies.  The sights were so dark and small, that I kept shooting high.  I shot over the back of the same deer three times.  I finally got a small buck that day, but only because he looked over his shoulder just as I shot.  The high flying bullet got him in the head.

C F

[sabotloader]

Why do you guys swear by those big heavy sloooow grenade lobbing projectiles, when you could be using a much lighter, flatter, and faster projectile?

This is an honest question.  

It makes no sense to me that if you can use a bullet that shoots flatter and faster to the target that that wouldn't be the way to go.  I know the size of the game and the more dangerous game would dictate more energy on target, but for deer and elk I don't understand this biggness thing.  Often by the time your slug would get to the target the target could move or be moving or even change directions.  In the old days when animals had very little fear of man, or even today hunting Moose, or buffalo on the prarie where you could walk up and shake hands with them these big old conicals might have been ok.  But today, especially in Idaho, these animals don't wait around to see if you are friend of foe - they move.  I can not imagine shooting a 500 grain what ever at an Elk quartering away from you up or down a ridge unless you kicked him out of bed and he is on your front porch.

I also understand somebodies motto - "if you are going to shoot make a big hole"  but with the advancement in bullet design and the different types of lead available, do you have to make a "big hole" to get results?  I would much rather a small hole going in a "ton" of hydraulic damage and bullet tissue damage on the inside and a blood letting hole coming out.  There is even a group of hunters that believe the bullet shouldn't exit all, all the energy should be expended on the inside of the animal.

Lucky shots - guessing or calculating shots, I really do not want to make or even attempt, I want to shoot and know where the bullet is going and the faster and flatter its going the better opportunity I have of getting it there.  All of this with the enogh energy to do the job at the range I choose to shoot.

[crow_feather]

sabotloader,

I think I understand how you feel, but it really isn't that bad.  The speed of the bullet might make an inch of difference, however Omega is good with the numbers, I'm not.

Lucky shots - guessing or calculating shots, I really do not want to make or even attempt, I want to shoot and know where the bullet is going

I agree with you 100 percent.  Any one who trusts in luck or a guess is not a hunter.  And not a nice person.  My rifle is a 100 yard rifle and I limit myself to that distance.  I am not bragging, mind you, but between one and one hundred yards, I can keep my shot within a couple of inches of the target. And my .58 ball behind 120 grains of 2f will get the job done.

When I shot that Enfield, I had used it for a long time on the range.  But in the forrest, that thin dark front sight was invisible. I later discovered that I was sighting with the base of the front sight believing it was the blade.  Needles to say, lesson learned, the Enfield is gone and a 58 Mowry sits in it's place.

For me, it's not getting the game - I would go home most times unhappy.  It's hunting with my great great grandfather's rifle and reliving that period of history.  It's not the kill, it's the spirit of the hunt.  I really can't explain it better than that.

May you have the best of luck this year in your hunts.

C F

[Redhawk1]

I personally like a big chunk of lead. If you look at a 200 gr. projectile and then a 500 gr. projectile, you will see the it does not take as much velocity with a big projectile to have more energy.  At 100 yards you are talking less than a second for impact with a large projectile. A slower big projectile will expend more of its energy in the animal than one the zips right through it. But if you feel better using light bullets and they work for you, that is good. Like I said it is my personal preference to go with heaver and slower.  I use the same concept when I shoot my Shiloh Sharps with black powder cartridges. We are only using 70 gr. of black powder. My buddy shot a deer at 40 yards with a 550 gr. pure lead paper patch bullet at about 1250 to 1300 fps and it passed through the deer, but the deer had a lot of internal damage and only went 20 yards after being shot.

[MOGorilla]

Well, I am a different bird, I don't hunt.  I never got the taste of it.  I got into guns as a kid.  Our town had a fall parade and the local muzzleloaders (early 70s) would dress up and shoot blank loads as they walked in the parade.  It was my favorite part.  When I go older, I hung around with a few "Total Traditionalists".  They had ~50 acres that was pre 1830 and that was it.  Nothing past the gate that was modern.  They allowed me in in my clothing, but nothing else.  I enjoyed that, but that lifestyle now spells one thing---DIVORCE(wife is okay with somethings, but not primative vacations).  Anyway, I think if you are hunting, you owe it to God's creatures to make sure they suffer as little as possible, if that means you don't take a 120 yard shot when you know you a 100 yard shooter, good for you, if you prefer to use a sabot and an inline, good for you too, but you know where the forum is for you to brag.  It amazes me how hot some conversations get here.   I think in someways, the internet allows us to be ruder than we would be in person.  I have good friends who are as left wing as they come and freinds that are the exact opposite, but we still get along in a fairly civil manner.  I guess if we all liked the same things life would be pretty boring.

[sabotloader]

For me, it's not getting the game - I would go home most times unhappy. It's hunting with my great great grandfather's rifle and reliving that period of history. It's not the kill, it's the spirit of the hunt. I really can't explain it better than that.

Now this statement I can really relate to, I bring out my grandfathers 30-30 every once in awhile - it holds a lot of memories.  And, hunting for me is no longer what it use to be it is not near as serious; the enjoyment of being out there in a place and an atmosphere that I love that is the most important.  I know at my age physically I can not do the things I use to do hunt the places that I use to, that is also why i do not need to pack that 300 mag around anymore - I don't need to prove anything I'll take may ML spend a day in the woods and love every minute of it.  Deer hunting hold no special thrill for me - my time is dedicated to Elk - deer are a piece of cake even though we are only allowed one tag - maybe two once in awhile - I an not imagine Alabama's 2 per day - thats sounds like fishing or pheasent hunting.

But, back to the bullet, setting time aside, trajectory certainly is important to me.  And I guess I would say I do extend my range out farther than you - I feel real comfortable at 150 yards even with open sights and even would take a 200 yards shot with a scope and with all the conditions being perfect for me.  Even with you 100 yards, hunting in timber and brush, shooting at moving animal shooting an arch at him/her might be a problem with limbs and branches getting in the arch.  On the other hand a flattened arch I have a lot better chance at seeing what might interfer.

Shooting a 44 cal. 250 grain Nosler Partition at 200 yards I am only down 8.5 inches and I never get higher than 2.4 inches.  At 100 yards which is my normal max I am up an 1.5" velocity of 1560 and 1350 lbs of energy.

All of this said, with these numbers Xwind is much less of a concern to me, with the heavy projectiles Xwind doen't have to much to be a factor.  Xwind is the least evaluated variable in shooting and with a muzzleloader you had better understand it whether shooting game or targets.  Xwind probably causes more misses or maiming shots than any other factor.[/quote]

[crow_feather]

MOGorilla,
I remember parades like that.  El Campus Vitus, or something close to that is what our shooters called themselves.  They were a fun loving bunch.

C F

[filmokentucky]

I've spent quite a lot of time with my Enfield, and I find it to be pretty user friendly. Ballistically, it's probably as close to a .45-70 as you can get in a traditional gun. Never noticed a problem with the sights-I'll pay it some attention next time out.
    Actually, I do most of my hunting and shooting with my flintlocks. But I
am thinking that my 1842 Springfield might make a pretty good duck gun.
Essentially, it's just a long barrelled 15 bore shotgun. Anyhow, a bad day hunting is better than a good day doing most anything else. Even if you don't see an animal all day long. Or so a wise man once said.

[roundball]

I've spent a lifetime deer hunting with all the major rifle calibers like .30-30's, .35Rem's, .30-06, .264WinMag, big leupold scopes and 300yd shots, handgun hunting at 25yds, bowhunting at 15yds, then started into muzzleloading with an inline, then sidelock percussions, to flintlocks.
All the rest lay oiled in their cases now...there's now no greater thrill than to take big game with a flintlock, real blackpowder, and a patched round ball...and they drop in sight of the stand with a ball through the heart/lungs just like they did with a rifle slug through the heart/lungs...I just don't hunt 300yds out...now it's up close "like Daniel did it"

[Bis]

I hope you guys don't mind my 2 cents worth from an outsider, but I have to agree with Filmokentucky. There is a lot to be said for the 58 cal musket. In the 70's and 80's I belonged to a Civil War club in S. Calif. and yes we wore the uniforms but we shot live rounds at combustible targets in timed events. In some events you woulds shoot 30-40 rounds (try that with a patched round ball without cleaning) and loading 10 rounds per minute was not out of the question (the barrel does get a bit hot :-) ). Accuracy to 100 yards is great, 150 to 200 is not bad if you know your gun. All your threads make me want to go dust off my Zouave and have some fun.

[crow_feather]

Good grief Bis,

Don't talk it - do it - then talk about it.  If not the Civil War, then the Wild West or Rendezvous.  Just get out and have fun.  And if you shoot or have shot a black powder muzzle loader, your not an outsider on this forum.  Thanks for joining in.

C F

[quickdtoo]

In some events you woulds shoot 30-40 rounds (try that with a patched round ball without cleaning) .....

Bis, I've done way more than 40 rounds without cleaning, the secret is using moosemilk on yer patches, you're always only one shot dirty, doesn't matter if you shoot 2 shots or 200, it's always the same!

[crow_feather]

quickdtoo,
100% correct - moose milk

[Bis]

.You guys sure do bring back a lot of fond memories. One of my best days of bird hunting is when I put my pump shot gun away and loaded my Brown Bess with shot and brought down a dove with it (of course I had to have some one spot to see if I hit it form all the smoke  :grin:  ). Or going to Rendezvous with things like the ball split where you have to hit 2 clay pigeons with one bullet by hitting the ax head dead center.
 Quickdtoo-I guess technology has changed in the last 20+ years, every time I have see people shoot patched round balls or tried it my self, it was shoot 3 or 4 rounds and clean the boer or use a hammer on the ram rod  :-).

[Bis]

Crow feather- Thanks for the warm greeting. Its appreciated.

[quickdtoo]

.You guys sure do bring back a lot of fond memories. One of my best days of bird hunting is when I put my pump shot gun away and loaded my Brown Bess with shot and brought down a dove with it (of course I had to have some one spot to see if I hit it form all the smoke  :grin:  ). Or going to Rendezvous with things like the ball split where you have to hit 2 clay pigeons with one bullet by hitting the ax head dead center.
 Quickdtoo-I guess technology has changed in the last 20+ years, every time I have see people shoot patched round balls or tried it my self, it was shoot 3 or 4 rounds and clean the boer or use a hammer on the ram rod  :-).

How bout the day I was hunting pheasants with my .62 cal trade gun(smooth bore flinter) and the 2 guys I was with had modern cartridge guns both missed a bird crossing in front of us, I didn't!  It's a great feeling to better a modern hunter with centuries old technology!!

A lot of traditional shooters today just don't have the mentor I had, they end up learning the hard way, from others making the same mistakes they're makin.  The fella I learned from had been buckskinning since 1977 when it was pretty much a new sport. I learned a lot from him and even more since...it's nice to share the knowledge with other new shooters and I do when ever I get the chance. Just about everytime I go to the range to shoot, there are blackpowder shooters there having some sort of trouble, from dry ballin to stuck projectiles. It sure is a lot more fun when you've been there, done it......

[GrampaMike]

I have got to ask...  I don't have a mentor...  
What is Moose Milk?......

[Bis]

Thanks for asking, I would like to know also ,just didn't want seem totally ignorant  :grin:

[quickdtoo]

10-15 parts water and 1 part water soluable machinists oil, sometimes with a drop or two of liquid dish soap. When mixed it turns white like milk. The other alternative is to milk a moose!

[filmokentucky]

If you choose to milk a moose, be very careful and be sure your hands are warm...

[quickdtoo]

If you choose to milk a moose, be very careful and be sure your hands are warm...

One of the tales I heard involved a bit of confusion and a boy moose!

[crow_feather]

One thing I read on the net, is that you have to pour the oil into the water.  Something to do with the oil molecules surrounding the water molecules and not the other way around.  

Like everyone has said, it's easy to make, lasts a long time, and works so well.  I always shoot all day and never have to clean tween shots.

C F

[quickdtoo]

I've done it both ways, didn't seem to make a difference. There are at least 2 kinds of machinists oil, one is water soluable. The stuff I use makes moosemilk with a slight greenish tint.

[crow_feather]

I'm using Sta-lube water soluble oil.  I guess you might say that it has a slightly brown tint to it.  I doubt that there is a whole heck of a lot of difference cept in color.  

The milk is so cheap to make that I have been making it for my friends for many years.  Everyone who has tried it has come back for more.

Knowing that it works so well, and that I never have to swab tween shots, I have to wonder why it iisn't used by more people.  I guess some people think that you have to pay a lot or it doesn't work.  Or they use UGH! oil in their barrels. That is the one thing that will sludge up my barrel.

C F

[Bis]

I presume we are talking about a well soaked patch placed along with a ball on top of the powder. What happens if you don't shoot for awhile (such as when you are hunting) ? Is there any ill affects on the powder?

[quickdtoo]

I presume we are talking about a well soaked patch placed along with a ball on top of the powder. What happens if you don't shoot for awhile (such as when you are hunting) ? Is there any ill affects on the powder?

Squeezing the excess out at loading prevents any problems. Moosemilk doesn't work as well for hunting for this reason, the patch tends to dry out and is less effective when it is shot, there's also the chance that it will come out of the barrel smoldering and possibly be a concern. But for trail shooting, moosemilk is the cats meow, where shots are made soon after loading. I've actually ran out of patches at a target shoot and picked up the used ones and reshot them 2 or 3 times and they still looked reusable!

[GrampaMike]

Moose Milk sounds like the way to go...  but I will stay away from Moose at least with my hands.  Thanks...