History "Boutique Guns" and Bomar Sights

[mugs]

We started to write this to Kelly after reading his post about talking to the shooter with the four digit IHMSA number. After reading all of Kellys hearsay and as I rembers we thought it might be a good history lesson, especially to some of the newer shooters reading this board. We wanted to cover some of Kellys favorite subjects "Boutique Guns" and "Bomar Sights. We figured we qualified since we also have four digit IHMSA numbers. At the first Metallic Handgun Silhouette match in Tucson in1975 sponsored by the Club De Auto Mag of the 46 guns shot 13 were Auto Mags. Kelly would have had them disqualified for being "Boutique Guns". The XL / Merrill pistol was accepted as  production legal in the orignal IHMSA charter. The sights used were Merit and Millit and later an in house the ISGW. In1983 the Wichita single shot was approved, it used a in house manufacttured sight. In 1984 the MOA was approved, their first sight looked like a S&W revolver sight. Later they went to a Millit than a in housemanufactured sight. In 1987 the BF first showed up as a Field Pistol entry in 32 H&R and 32-20. With some added pressure from some of us interested shooters they brought out some big bore choices. It was equipped with in house sights, and sold for less than a TC. After BF was sold they offered a choice of Williams or ISGW sights. Later they offered a Bomar sight scope rib combo. The "Boutique Guns" were all designed and/or built by silhouette shooters for silhouette shooters. 1987 was also the year that Field Pistol was first added by IHMSA. Nine years after the last "Boutique Gun" was approved [1996], after market sights were approved. That left a lot of time manufactures to improve their sights TC & S&W tried no one else did. S&W and BF were the only production guns to offer Bomar sights before the after market rule. We also checked one of Kellys other favorites, FA driving Rugers out. FA silhouette models also used ISGW sights. The first year we found where FA started showing up in the top ten was the 1991 Internationals. The following list went back five years. 1991 7-DW 3 FA, 1990 10-DW, 1989 8-DW 1-SEV 1-MAN, 1988 6-DW 3-SEV 1-RUG, 1987 8-DW 1-VD 1-MAN. If you looked another five years back you would find the same results. This was all prior to the after market sights. Ruger kept Ruger out of the top ten. We like to think we early IHMSA shooters did what we thought was the best for the sport when we voted to change rules. We also hope that all but a few who followed had as much fun as we did for 25 years. The few are the ones who think everyone who came before them screwed it up for them. After spending 16 great years shooting silhouettes in Alaska including 10+ years as Alaska State Director for IHMSA we hate to think that anyone judges true Alaskans by Kelly.
Bev & Mugs 5940WL  5940L

[braud357]

Mugs & Bev - will make my response short and to the point - "Bravo and AMEN !" --- Philip Braud IHMSA 13794

[IHMSA80x80]

I'm glad you posted that, it sure sets the record straight on this issue. Well done!

[Gun Zorro]

You show once again why I love and admire you two!
I am happy to have you set the facts straight in black and white. I get tired of Kelly's massaging of facts to suit his own ends.
One small point -- I believe MOA began offering Bo-Mars as an option to their in-house sight in 90s (1994?) when they were unable to fill all requests for their MOA rear sight.
Jim

[K2]

HI Mugs

Hugs and kisses for proving the point  

DW was the first that pushed on the Rugers, and the Seville was another. DW went out of business several times while Ruger continues to chug along making a good over the counter affordable gun.  I haven't seen too many Seville adds in the gun magazines lately  :wink:

You can't grow a game with specialty equipment, and many of the shooting sports have found this to be true.  This by no means that we should exclude the specialty guns, just give them a separate category so that the truly mass produced guns have a place to play.  Ruger was right in not offering aftermarket sights, we don't buy enough of their guns to warrant the cost.   Now that we are down to 1000 or less active shooters Ruger knows they made the right choice.  It is grow or die and you simply can't grow without the over the counter shooters.  When you put higher scores ahead of a larger membership the results are just what we have today.  Silhouette was on life support in Alaska long before I came here.  3 regulars were all that was left.  Last year one of those regulars passed away.  The reasons for Alaska are the same as they are all over the US.  Silhouette is a lot of work to run a match for a few people to do it.  You live in the Phoenix area which has more population than the entire State of Alaska and can turn out what 5 to 10 IHMSA shooters at a match?   The only solution to the problem is to get more people to shoot silhouette and you just can't get large numbers when the perception is the only way to the top is with $5000 worth of equipment.  That perception is the same in Arizona as it is in Alaska.  Higher average scores are not saving the game.

That we need a truly mass production over the counter gun category is obvious to those who see a future in the game rather than those who wish to reminisce about the glory days of silhouette.   Winning at all costs is costing us the entire game.  You can ignor the general shooting public and downsize, or you can embrace them and grow.  If we get too small many clubs and shooting ranges around the country will give the space to the sports that put more bodies on the range.  Simple economics.  With fewer ranges you end up with fewer shooters, and the cycle accelerates.    

We started to write this to Kelly after reading his post about talking to the shooter with the four digit IHMSA number. After reading all of Kellys hearsay and as I rembers we thought it might be a good history lesson, especially to some of the newer shooters reading this board. We wanted to cover some of Kellys favorite subjects "Boutique Guns" and "Bomar Sights. We figured we qualified since we also have four digit IHMSA numbers. At the first Metallic Handgun Silhouette match in Tucson in1975 sponsored by the Club De Auto Mag of the 46 guns shot 13 were Auto Mags. Kelly would have had them disqualified for being "Boutique Guns". The XL / Merrill pistol was accepted as  production legal in the orignal IHMSA charter. The sights used were Merit and Millit and later an in house the ISGW. In1983 the Wichita single shot was approved, it used a in house manufacttured sight. In 1984 the MOA was approved, their first sight looked like a S&W revolver sight. Later they went to a Millit than a in housemanufactured sight. In 1987 the BF first showed up as a Field Pistol entry in 32 H&R and 32-20. With some added pressure from some of us interested shooters they brought out some big bore choices. It was equipped with in house sights, and sold for less than a TC. After BF was sold they offered a choice of Williams or ISGW sights. Later they offered a Bomar sight scope rib combo. The "Boutique Guns" were all designed and/or built by silhouette shooters for silhouette shooters. 1987 was also the year that Field Pistol was first added by IHMSA. Nine years after the last "Boutique Gun" was approved [1996], after market sights were approved. That left a lot of time manufactures to improve their sights TC & S&W tried no one else did. S&W and BF were the only production guns to offer Bomar sights before the after market rule. We also checked one of Kellys other favorites, FA driving Rugers out. FA silhouette models also used ISGW sights. The first year we found where FA started showing up in the top ten was the 1991 Internationals. The following list went back five years. 1991 7-DW 3 FA, 1990 10-DW, 1989 8-DW 1-SEV 1-MAN, 1988 6-DW 3-SEV 1-RUG, 1987 8-DW 1-VD 1-MAN. If you looked another five years back you would find the same results. This was all prior to the after market sights. Ruger kept Ruger out of the top ten. We like to think we early IHMSA shooters did what we thought was the best for the sport when we voted to change rules. We also hope that all but a few who followed had as much fun as we did for 25 years. The few are the ones who think everyone who came before them screwed it up for them. After spending 16 great years shooting silhouettes in Alaska including 10+ years as Alaska State Director for IHMSA we hate to think that anyone judges true Alaskans by Kelly.
Bev & Mugs 5940WL  5940L

[IHMSA80x80]

I just can't agree with you Mike...our club has tried and it doesn't work.  We have never put higher scores ahead of larger memberships. We used to run a silhouette clinic every spring. Finally we quit doing that cause people didn't show up, despite our advertising efforts. Our club made sure that no "Boutique" guns were even present for the clinic and free shooting day. We stuck with the "over the counter" guns, letting everyone try whatever they wished or didn't have themselves. They just weren't interested for whatever reason, since none joined IHMSA or shot their free entry at the next match. The shooters had trouble hitting a large percentage of the regulation targets (no, we didn't put the Half-Scale ones out either) with their over the counter guns, got discouraged and never came back.
 
Short of moving all the big targets to the 10 yard line and re-writing all the rules to accommodate the new short-range course, there was no other way to run it. It's wrong to place the targets at closer than standard distances, just to gain some early success. When they show up at the match, and see how far away they really are, they don't even want to uncase their guns.
 
You're right, silhouette is a lot of work to run a match, but when the same few club members do all the work for everyone else, and the shooters still don't show up, what can you do? We had an absolutely beautiful day yesterday, calm winds, 80 degrees and the only shooters who showed up, not counting the same 3 of us who are always there, were from other clubs or out of state. They drove 2-3 hours to get here, but not ONE club member could even drive 15 minutes to the match? Why? I have some ideas, but boutique guns and $5000 worth of silhouette guns is not the answer.
 
A truly mass production over the counter gun category is not the answer. Again, our club tried that...not one shooter showed up to shoot his 9mm or .40 Shoot & Missum. You know what they want? Just a place to blast away, to plink at 10 yards. They couldn't care less about long-range handgun marksmanship...it's just not their bag. Hitting coke cans at 15 feet is all the excitement they want. That's fine with me, if that's what they want to do, more power to them.  
 
Silhouette is a demanding competition, for anyone who wants to excel at it, but that takes a certain amount of dedication to the sport. The new shooter can be shown silhouette, with all it's categories, given instruction on how to shoot it, assisted by experienced shooters, but if he doesn't have any internal drive, you'll never get him to join, and I don't know how to instill that fever in ordinary shooters. It has to come from within their souls first, then you can cultivate that drive and they will become IHMSA members.
 
Now, when it comes to getting the IHMSA shooters out to the match, or keeping them involved in it for more than a year or two, again I don't have any answers. And we have a great range...covered firing line, concrete benches to shoot from, no sun in your eyes, fully auto-reset target system, and I do all the work myself. I don't ask for any help, nor do I expect it...it just comes with the Match Director title. So where are the shooters?

[K2]

Hi 80x80

We need to have a wider appeal.  I support 1/5 scale for SB and 1/2 scale for BB.  I support all the techno gadgets you fellows want to have.  In exchange why not support a basic equipment game.  I also want to see a budget area in the game for fellows like myself that actually enjoy shooting run of the mill equipment better than it is supposed to do.  As long as it takes a FA to win Small Bore Revolver you can guarantee only those who are willing to spend $2000 on a gun will participate in SB revolver.  That is a small group of people to be sure.  What has been overlooked is that there is a market for folks that shoot 10/22's with ammo that has names such as Thunderbolt, Lightning etc. The rifle silhouetters have missed this group just as IHMSA has missed the pistol shooters that use 4 to 6 inch handguns.  3/8ths scale targets might be needed for the 10/22 shooter with thunderbolts and 5/8ths scale targets might be needed to get the 4 to 6 inch pistol shooters but that is ok.   The image we portray is one where FA's and Neisika bays are what it takes to do well.  You can only get a small select group that way.  Make a budget area in the game and leave it alone and you will see growth.  So far I have not seen the willingness to leave it alone.  

The shooting sports in general have the look and feel of equipment racing all the time and it has cost us in terms of participation.  Even the Olympics are looking into getting rid of shooting suits and crazy headgear for the rifle shooters because it doesn't get an audience.  

AIR production proved well enough for me that a budget area can and will work in this sport.  The problem has been leaving it alone long enough to grow and actually promoting the idea nationally.  Small local efforts don't get great results for the amount of work that goes into them.  Burnout of the MD's is often the end result.  

The more we specialize the smaller will be the following.  Broaden what is used and we will grow.  You will never grow by saying "start out with what you have and upgrade as you get better".  What this says to me and folks that think like I do (yup they are out there) "your stuff is junk but that is ok until you get serious".

The handwritting is all over the place, we either change directions and broaden the appeal or do some serious downsizing of the overhead.

[IHMSA80x80]

I agree we need to have wider appeal. The half-scale competitions have that appeal, but that comes from within the silhouette community. We need to appeal to a broader range of shooters outside our sport. Advertising may work, articles in main stream shooting publications and media (TV) coverage of our sport. Problem is, it costs money. I believe we have to invest some in a quality promotional package (such as a DVD or CD) and get the word out. Lack of TV coverage on ESPN or the Outdoor Channels really hurts. What shooting sports do we see there?...only those that pay out a lot of money: IPSC, Bianchi Cup, Grand American Trap, even SASS.  
 
Elgin set this game up specifically not to become a money game...no big cash payouts...so anyone can compete on an equal basis (the Production category). You can't win a bunch of money shooting silhouettes...the most I ever got back was about $40 many years ago when there were larger crowds. Nowadays, you're lucky to get a couple of bucks back...doesn't even come close to offset the expenses. Perhaps this has hurt IHMSA from the beginning.  You see where the above sports have gone? High stakes, big bucks for the winners, all the media coverage. Guess what? Only the same top shooters compete at all the events, and the same ones win all the marbles, all the time. Know how much an IPSC race gun costs? About $4000 and a couple of years wait. Ever see a 4-gun Perazzi trap set? Set you back about $35,000. Even SASS costs a bunch...right off the bat you need at least 3 guns to start out with and about $2000 worth of clothes. The "boutique guns" are in all these games also...the winners use them and everyone else wants one too. It's called competition and keeping up with the Jones.  
 
(As an aside, do you think IHMSA went the wrong direction by not making it a money contest and offering tons of cash and prizes for the top shooter? )
 
Where do you see the common guns? In the lower classes, where skill level isn't up to that required to win everything. (Except in these games, the lower class entry fees go into the pot for the top dog to win.) Or where the shooters themselves are just into it for the fun, not ever expecting to win...then there is no desire to upgrade equipment. If you want to excel in these sports, you gotta get the best equipment and put in a lot of work and dedication.    
 
Kind of like IHMSA. The top shooters want to be at the top, to test their skills against the best and dedicate themselves to work hard to get there. Obviously, as you point out, and I agree with that part, they are going to spend the bucks for the "boutique guns" and custom bolt actions, cause that is what they are up against. It levels their playing field...if all the INT Revolver shooters have Freedom Arms, then the winner is truly the best shooter that day, like equipment cancels each other out.  When I got my FA .22 in 1991, just as they were coming out, I knew I had to have one because several other INT shooters were getting them. "You either buy a Freedom Arms or compete against one" was told to me by a good friend, and he was absolutely right. I knew my Dan Wesson wasn't up to the task...my skill level was up to it, but not my gun.  
 
In the lower classes, it comes down to the shooter's skills, not what equipment they are using. An "A" class shooter will miss just as many targets with a Ruger as with a Freedom Arms. Doesn't matter...they don't need a separate category, that is what the class system does, pairs shooters based on relative skill level. Once they improve, if they are serious about attaining the top spot, more than likely they will upgrade. If not that serious, and it is only for the occasional fun match, they'll continue to shoot the over the counter guns. A separate category will not attract them in droves to this game...it is already in place.
 
If they made everyone shoot Rugers, the top shooters would still retain their relative positions because they work at their shooting. But that is not required by rules, so you get to choose what guns you want to shoot. The freedom of choice is what founded this country.

[K2]

Hi 80x80

We both recognize the same problem.  Our solutions are different.  

We agree that the DW's chased off the Rugers and now the FA's have chased off the DW's as you say they are not up to the task anymore.  In the process we have taken the entry fee for Revolver from $500, to $1000 and now to $2000.  As we have done this the number of revolver shooters has dropped dramatically.  The competition is no better but the cost has gone up 400 percent!

I do not shoot revolver, either Big Bore or Small Bore simply because it is an all FA game and spending $4000 on a pair of revolvers isn't worth it to me.  I am by no means unique in this regard.  (A little secret - no one wants to stay in AA or A, class everyone wants to be in INT class.  If INT is only open to those willing to buy the best then you are on the path to a very much smaller association than we have even today)

AIR was a grand experiment to me.  It proved 1. that low cost equipment was not a barrier to long time IHMSA members getting interested.  Initially there was some whining over the $150 cap on Production, but those that tried it found that they could shoot the same scores they do with their powder guns and they were having a blast.  That was what I wanted to see on an institutional basis.  Point 2. was personal I wanted to see if I could run with the big dogs given simular equipment.  Fortunately steve Martins a past IHMSA "Iron Man" took up AIR and I could run within a few points of his 3 gun agg score.  Good enough for me, it proved that equipment is at least 50% of the equation.  The IHMSA is no different than IPSC, High Power, Trap or Bullseye, the top is dominated by the equipment race, with the exception of no $ pay out.  We will do it all for a plaque made of partical board.  some compared AIR production to IROC racing everyone using the same guns.  Well Revolver is IROC racing with all the competitors using the same gun.  In AIR it is a Daisy in Revolver it is a FA.  The former costs you about $115 the later about $2000 for Small Bore.  Both have the competitors using virtually identical equipment.  Currently we have a $ cap in Revolver of $2000, it just isn't in the rulebook.  

Here is the real question for the entire association.  Are 2 budget gun entries in each discipline of BB,SB,FP and AIR such a treat to those who think only the best should be what we shoot?  

You mention freedom of choice.  That is exactly what I am looking for.  I would not force you to shoot the buget categories.  Heck there is no reason to unless you wanted to, we have already 20+ for you to choose from now that you can spend what ever you wish to.  

There are millions of Americans that already own the guns I am talking about.  Give them a place to shoot where they do not have to go up against a specialty built gun and they MAY come and shoot with us.  If you do not give them this opportunity they WON'T come out and shoot silhouette.  It really is that simple.  

I agree we need to have wider appeal. The half-scale competitions have that appeal, but that comes from within the silhouette community. We need to appeal to a broader range of shooters outside our sport. Advertising may work, articles in main stream shooting publications and media (TV) coverage of our sport. Problem is, it costs money. I believe we have to invest some in a quality promotional package (such as a DVD or CD) and get the word out. Lack of TV coverage on ESPN or the Outdoor Channels really hurts. What shooting sports do we see there?...only those that pay out a lot of money: IPSC, Bianchi Cup, Grand American Trap, even SASS.  
 
Elgin set this game up specifically not to become a money game...no big cash payouts...so anyone can compete on an equal basis (the Production category). You can't win a bunch of money shooting silhouettes...the most I ever got back was about $40 many years ago when there were larger crowds. Nowadays, you're lucky to get a couple of bucks back...doesn't even come close to offset the expenses. Perhaps this has hurt IHMSA from the beginning.  You see where the above sports have gone? High stakes, big bucks for the winners, all the media coverage. Guess what? Only the same top shooters compete at all the events, and the same ones win all the marbles, all the time. Know how much an IPSC race gun costs? About $4000 and a couple of years wait. Ever see a 4-gun Perazzi trap set? Set you back about $35,000. Even SASS costs a bunch...right off the bat you need at least 3 guns to start out with and about $2000 worth of clothes. The "boutique guns" are in all these games also...the winners use them and everyone else wants one too. It's called competition and keeping up with the Jones.  
 
(As an aside, do you think IHMSA went the wrong direction by not making it a money contest and offering tons of cash and prizes for the top shooter? )
 
Where do you see the common guns? In the lower classes, where skill level isn't up to that required to win everything. (Except in these games, the lower class entry fees go into the pot for the top dog to win.) Or where the shooters themselves are just into it for the fun, not ever expecting to win...then there is no desire to upgrade equipment. If you want to excel in these sports, you gotta get the best equipment and put in a lot of work and dedication.    
 
Kind of like IHMSA. The top shooters want to be at the top, to test their skills against the best and dedicate themselves to work hard to get there. Obviously, as you point out, and I agree with that part, they are going to spend the bucks for the "boutique guns" and custom bolt actions, cause that is what they are up against. It levels their playing field...if all the INT Revolver shooters have Freedom Arms, then the winner is truly the best shooter that day, like equipment cancels each other out.  When I got my FA .22 in 1991, just as they were coming out, I knew I had to have one because several other INT shooters were getting them. "You either buy a Freedom Arms or compete against one" was told to me by a good friend, and he was absolutely right. I knew my Dan Wesson wasn't up to the task...my skill level was up to it, but not my gun.  
 
In the lower classes, it comes down to the shooter's skills, not what equipment they are using. An "A" class shooter will miss just as many targets with a Ruger as with a Freedom Arms. Doesn't matter...they don't need a separate category, that is what the class system does, pairs shooters based on relative skill level. Once they improve, if they are serious about attaining the top spot, more than likely they will upgrade. If not that serious, and it is only for the occasional fun match, they'll continue to shoot the over the counter guns. A separate category will not attract them in droves to this game...it is already in place.
 
If they made everyone shoot Rugers, the top shooters would still retain their relative positions because they work at their shooting. But that is not required by rules, so you get to choose what guns you want to shoot. The freedom of choice is what founded this country.

[Steve P]

Well, after reading two threads for over an hour, it's time to put in my two cents worth.  

Men have pride.  Men want to show off in front of other men.  Men don't want to look the fool, and don't want reveal their inadequacies.

What you are asking is to have people come to shoot all the while knowing they CAN'T hit the targets.  I know.  I shot my Colt Trooper in a Match.  I think my score was six.  I have a Dan Wesson, I have the Rugers.  I now have a FA for .22.  Why, because that is what it will take to win.  

I think I have a pong game around here somewhere.  My brother has a Vic 20 computer, I have an Atari, and maybe a few other "computer" games.  But you know what, they sure as heck are not as fun as the new games for the tv or the computer.  No, I will not pull out the pong to play, because other people might be able to compete with me.

I shot the shotgun matches.  High $$s, going from Remingtons, to Brownings, to Kreighoffs.  If you get good, you can compete with the big boys.  If not, you CAN STILL COMPETE WITHIN YOUR CLASS and make money at it.  You don't have to play the big $$ games to enjoy shooting.

Same with IHMSA, NRA silhouette, or any other game.  If you want to play, you have to pay.  If you spend little $$s, you play in the B, A, AA classes.  IF you get good with your gun, you may get into AAA.   Normal guns rarely will get you into International or Master class any more.

Do you know why the folks on my range don't want to play, because I can lay in creedmore position and consistently hit the 6" gongs at 200 yards with my silhouette pistols.  This really pisses them off when they can't hit them with their scoped rifles over the bench.  Because the gun is not adequate, no, because they can't hit.  They aren't good enough to show off in front of other people.  They don't want to show off their inadequacies.  

IHMSA and NRA Silhouette is no longer a new game.  It is over 20 years old.  There are MASTERS AND EXPERTS who shoot in it because they love competition.   We now have half scale so there is more of a challenge.  Big Bore full size is now little challenge with some of the guns.  Some of us are looking toward smaller targets or further distances.  How many people have left because it is no longer a challenge?  How many have gone to Cowboy shooting or similar games for new challenges.  

I am there each month giving of my time, money, and offering other shooter advice, ammo, use of guns etc.  I am trying to get folks involved in the sport.  We challenge them to increase their own score.  Work up to their own potential.  To enjoy the bang/clang that we all like to hear.  I will help put new shooters into the game and guide them as needed.  However, I will not tell them or encourage them to do anything that Elgin Gates, or the other fathers of our sport did.  I will not have them modifying rifles, or making their own handguns.  We have evolved just like everything else.  

Would I be interested in a new sport, Yes.  Bring it on.  Right now it seems to be working toward the 500 meter or yard matches.    Will I go back to the 80s or encourage a new shooter to do so.  NO.  I think we have all learned from our mistakes.  No need to try to go back and wallow thru them again.  

We encourage the use of Cowboys Rifles in our big bore and small bore matches to draw in some of the Cowboy shooters.  We encourage the use of ex-military or antique guns, black powder, etc with cast bullets in our matches.  There are several clubs that have special field pistol or hunter pistol matches with semi-autos, conceal carry revolvers, etc.  These are fun matches.  The are a great promotion, but you DON"T HAVE to change
all the rules and cause a lot of fights just to have fun!!.  

If you have a gun that you like to shoot, that will not damage our targets, we will find a place for you to shoot and we will have fun.  Will we make a special category for you at IHMSA Internationals.  NO!!

Have fun, shoot straight, and keep the kids shooting also.

Steve  

[Steelbanger]

Steve P,

 Slamming an entire group of shooters certainly won't attract hesitant beginners, seeing as you're so good and they are such bad shots. I'm not the argumentative type but your boasting slam at riflemen prompts this reply.

 So you can hit a 6" gong at 200 from creedmore with your specialized pistol. So what? All of my friends could hit it every time from a rest with their rifles and probably unlike you, they could also do it from the offhand position. Maybe not every shot but often enough to impress anyone. Most of the creedmore shooters I see never even try standing. The reason they don't is obvious . . it's too hard for them to get a respectable score and we all know that only 40's count, right? As we all assume, IHMSA is dying and the "you can't win 'cause my gun's better than yours" attitude is one of the reasons. May I suggest that next match you shoot your unlimited gun standing, preferably next to a first-timer, so that he can see for himself that even experienced silhouetters with very expensive equipment miss when they shoot standing.

[Steve P]

Steelbanger,

I intentionally slammed no one, unlike your personal attack on me, and you don't even know me.

I stated facts.  I shoot 1000s of rounds a year.  Yes, I can hit the gong with my scoped rifles, my Contenders when standing, my model 94s,etc.  Nothing pisses people off more than someone practicing for a big match by hitting a 6" gong with a DW revolver.  How specialized is this.  I am talking contenders etc.  Specialized?  I don't have an moa, an XL, or any of the "specialized" guns.   Can you imagine someone being mad at you because you hit a 6" gong consistently with a 10" Contender in 30 carbine?  It has happened to me!  I am just a plain Joe with kids like most of the folks in this sport.

People don't want to come out because they don't want to miss.   Yes, the sport is dying.  Some really good people have left due to all of the fights and the challenge for them is gone.  There are lots of people who try the sport, can't hit the targets, and don't want to play.   Some of the people don't want to spend the money to play.  That is why I don't shoot at much shotgun anymore.  $250 entry fee gets pretty spendy.

People get attacked by other people who don't even know them, just because they have the right to speak.   The sport isn't dying because I spent $600 for a new gun.  The sport is dying because I spent $600 for a new gun and someone else wants to cry about it or make vulgar comments because my new gun can hit more targets then theirs.  That is why this sport is dying.

It is NOT FUN ANYMORE!!!  That is why people are leaving.  Do I need to repeat that?  It is NOT FUN ANYMORE!!!  Vocal competition is drowning out the shooting competition.  Too many people want to fight, make gross comments or downgrade someone else.   They spend more time putting people down then trying to help new people stand up.

I will not make personal attacks on you or anyone else.  If you come to my range, I will help you, to the best of my ability, to fit in and compete with us, with whatever firearms you want to bring.   I will even let you shoot mine!  And you know what?  We will have fun doing it!!!!

Should the sport go backward to attract new people?  No.  The sport needs to go forward.  WE need to come up with a better game to attract others.  We need to stop fighting each other and start supporting each other.  Or else, the sport will die.

Thanks for your support!!  

Steve

[Steelbanger]

Steve P,

You're correct in the fact that I don't know you and maybe I'm putting something into your lines that you didn't intend to be interpreted as I saw them. Sorry.

If I'm at the range and I or someone I'm with makes a skillful shot at long range bystanders don't get "pissed", they usually express admiration. Maybe it's just the difference in peoples attitudes between where you & I live.

[K2]

Hi Steve P  

I think you have stated the issue fairly well when you say that you bought a FA because "this is what it will take to win", and " Normal guns will rarely get you into the INT or Masters classes anymore".  This well known fact is why Silhouette is growing so small anymore.  If you fail to understand simple economics you will kill the game.  The Board doesn't get it, they don't even understand basic accounting.  Instead we spend precious energy re-writing the rules each year never getting off of 1st base, and promoting a fun game.  

Even in its brief 2 1/2 year run AIR Production proved a low cost game can work and work very well in an extremely equipment limited area of the sport.  About 1/2 of the members don't want that and this is why we cannot attract people with over the counter guns, we cannot hang on to the idea for long before the racers take over.   At so many matches a new fellow will hear in his first few matches that if he wants to "win" he must get a new battery of guns.  Most folks that hear that ($$$$)  do not come back for year 2 which is why our retention of members is slipping.  

What is silly to me is that without a larger participation rate the guys with their FA's and XL's, Nesika Bays, etc. will find they cannot cover the cost of running a match.  The matches that count for the future of the sport are the LOCAL matches not the International.  No one can go to the International without participating in a local match at 3 entries per discipline per year.  The association has put way too much emphasis on the International, while ignoring the fact that the small local matches are slowly but STEADILY going under.   IHMSA never developed a jr. program because they did not think they needed one.  The idea was that Silhouette was so much fun that it would win everyone over.  It is fun to be sure, but so are lots of other shooting sports.  Silhouette takes a lot of work to keep it going because the targets must be picked up after they fall.  Tons of weight are moved each match and like it or not that takes people working together.  

To me it is clear (which is why I am am pressing forward with a new and much less expensive silhouette game) without a broader group of shooters, Silhouette will end up being a small group (200-500) shooters in just a few locations around the country.

The sad thing is that IHMSA could have had the budget market since the other pistol games do not want it.  It is a nice compliment to the high $ games and would generate a number of shooters that will cross over.  The class system doesn't work when equipment is a big part of that system.   The best shooters will always rise to the top at whatever level of equipment you set.  Make that equipment affordable in a few categories and more will try to reach the top spending more years in the assocition. Instead they are saying "Well I have made AA or AAA and the only way to make INT is to spend thousands on new equipment."  Less than 1 in 10 will do that.  

The reason that many folks are P.Oed at me is that I am willing to state what is happening and they don't like it.  Our sport simply isn't very popular anymore and they don't want to address that.  IF you let the racers take over a game soon nothing but racers will participate in the game.  It has happened over and over.  Cowboy is starting to have trouble with it and most likely will fail to see why they grew so fast at the beginning.  Racers screw up everything they get involved in.  Good luck Steve P!  

Well, after reading two threads for over an hour, it's time to put in my two cents worth.  

Men have pride.  Men want to show off in front of other men.  Men don't want to look the fool, and don't want reveal their inadequacies.

What you are asking is to have people come to shoot all the while knowing they CAN'T hit the targets.  I know.  I shot my Colt Trooper in a Match.  I think my score was six.  I have a Dan Wesson, I have the Rugers.  I now have a FA for .22.  Why, because that is what it will take to win.  

I think I have a pong game around here somewhere.  My brother has a Vic 20 computer, I have an Atari, and maybe a few other "computer" games.  But you know what, they sure as heck are not as fun as the new games for the tv or the computer.  No, I will not pull out the pong to play, because other people might be able to compete with me.

I shot the shotgun matches.  High $$s, going from Remingtons, to Brownings, to Kreighoffs.  If you get good, you can compete with the big boys.  If not, you CAN STILL COMPETE WITHIN YOUR CLASS and make money at it.  You don't have to play the big $$ games to enjoy shooting.

Same with IHMSA, NRA silhouette, or any other game.  If you want to play, you have to pay.  If you spend little $$s, you play in the B, A, AA classes.  IF you get good with your gun, you may get into AAA.   Normal guns rarely will get you into International or Master class any more.

Do you know why the folks on my range don't want to play, because I can lay in creedmore position and consistently hit the 6" gongs at 200 yards with my silhouette pistols.  This really pisses them off when they can't hit them with their scoped rifles over the bench.  Because the gun is not adequate, no, because they can't hit.  They aren't good enough to show off in front of other people.  They don't want to show off their inadequacies.  

IHMSA and NRA Silhouette is no longer a new game.  It is over 20 years old.  There are MASTERS AND EXPERTS who shoot in it because they love competition.   We now have half scale so there is more of a challenge.  Big Bore full size is now little challenge with some of the guns.  Some of us are looking toward smaller targets or further distances.  How many people have left because it is no longer a challenge?  How many have gone to Cowboy shooting or similar games for new challenges.  

I am there each month giving of my time, money, and offering other shooter advice, ammo, use of guns etc.  I am trying to get folks involved in the sport.  We challenge them to increase their own score.  Work up to their own potential.  To enjoy the bang/clang that we all like to hear.  I will help put new shooters into the game and guide them as needed.  However, I will not tell them or encourage them to do anything that Elgin Gates, or the other fathers of our sport did.  I will not have them modifying rifles, or making their own handguns.  We have evolved just like everything else.  

Would I be interested in a new sport, Yes.  Bring it on.  Right now it seems to be working toward the 500 meter or yard matches.    Will I go back to the 80s or encourage a new shooter to do so.  NO.  I think we have all learned from our mistakes.  No need to try to go back and wallow thru them again.  

We encourage the use of Cowboys Rifles in our big bore and small bore matches to draw in some of the Cowboy shooters.  We encourage the use of ex-military or antique guns, black powder, etc with cast bullets in our matches.  There are several clubs that have special field pistol or hunter pistol matches with semi-autos, conceal carry revolvers, etc.  These are fun matches.  The are a great promotion, but you DON"T HAVE to change
all the rules and cause a lot of fights just to have fun!!.  

If you have a gun that you like to shoot, that will not damage our targets, we will find a place for you to shoot and we will have fun.  Will we make a special category for you at IHMSA Internationals.  NO!!

Have fun, shoot straight, and keep the kids shooting also.

Steve  

[Steve P]

Steelbanger,

Apology accepted.  Yes, it is probably the location and the shooters.  I am not trying to single out any group or point blame.  We all need to look for ways to help each other in these sports.


I have seen near fist fights because one shooter's semi-auto brass was flying into another shooters 'space'.   Everytime I go shoot my muzzleloader at the range before elk season someone is sure to complain because the smoke is covering their target.  

Society is changing.  The golden rule is becoming outdated.  It is now, do unto others before they do it unto you!!

We have some great people at our range.  Some really awesome shooters.  (If I could only be that good!!)  We also have some lemons that sour things for the others.  Why?  Because they can.

Now is not the time to haggle and put controversy into our shooting sports.   Some anti-gun lobbiest will get involved and really screw up things for all of us.  Now is the time to band together and promote our shooting sports.   Harmony and excitement breed more shooters.  Discord and grumbling drives them away.

Shoot straight.

Steve