Best bullet construction

[Coyote Hunter]

OK, I'm back at home and on my own computer.  As promised, here's my thoughts...

A bullet's sectional density drops rapidly as it expands and weight loss drops it even faster.  While older "cup and core" bullets will do the job reliably on the smaller species like whitetail and antelope, for bigger game I have a definite bias toward bullets that are more solidly constructed and have better weight retention characteristics.  I believe such construction is especially important when impact velocities approach or exceed 2,800fps.  After killing my first elk I switched from a Hornady 7mm 162g BTSP (48.3% weight retention after passing through a single rib of a 2-point bull elk) to the Speer 160g Grand Slam (71.1% weight retention after destroying both shoulders of a 5x5 bull elk).  Both bullets were recovered under the hide on the off side, and both were nicely mushroomed.  Yes, both did the job required of them - I just have strong doubts that the Hornady would have performed as well as the Grand Slam had their placements been switched.

As others have pointed out, the Nosler Partitions were not on the list of options.  Since the Partitions have a well-deserved reputation for losing their front core, they were intentionally omitted from the list.  That said, Federal's 160g 7mm Mag Partition loads shoot to the same point of impact (or close enough) as my hand loaded 160g Grand Slams, and I often take a box along in case there is a problem with my handloads in the field.  (For many years the Federal factory loads were my source for new brass, so I almost always had some on hand.)  Although I have never actually used them on big game, I have seen the results others have had with them and I can't really complain - even when they do lose their front core.  I have some 120g bullets to try out in the .257 Roberts.

Its kind of the same deal with the Grand Slam - although they have performed exceedingly well for me, they are not true bonded core bullets and I left them off the list.  A long-time favorite in the 7mm Mag, I have a couple boxes of 120's to play with in the .257 Roberts.

The only other bullet on the list that I have personal experience hunting with is the North Fork bonded bullet - using a 350g .458" in my Marlin 1895, launched at 2183fps.  One bullet passed through a forkhorn buck at 192 lasered yards.  He ran about 15 yards in the snow, leaving the largest blood trail I have ever seen.  A second took a 6x6 bull elk at 213 lasered yards.  That bullet obliterated a section of the left front leg, a near rib and a far rib and came to rest under the hide on the off side.  The bull just stood there with a nick in his heart, then collapsed a few seconds later without ever taking a step.  The recovered bullet weighed 271.5g (77.8% retention) and was mushroomed to .623"x .978".  This will definitely be my .45-70 hunting bullet for the near future.  North Fork also builds bullets for other calibers and I intend to try them in my 7mm Mag.

The Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets are very close to the North Fork bullets in construction, but lack the external grooves of the North Forks.  I would expect velocities to be a bit lower than the North Forks and terminal performance to be indistinguishable from them.

The 115g Barnes Triple Shock (TSX) has been shooting very well in my .257 Roberts - under an inch at 200 yards.  But I have reservations about using it due to a bad experience with the 160g Barnes XLC in my 7mm Mag.  Although the XLC's were quite accurate, a buck antelope took two in the boiler room (both in the lungs) without dying.  I had to work my way around the hill and come up from the back side, a 20 minute job, and put a third through his heart to end his suffering.  My best guess at this time is the XLC's opened up and the petals broke off.  On another occasion, I shot a coyote at 75 yards with the 7mm 160g XLC.  The impact velocity was just under 2900fps and the coyote dropped like a stone.  Amazingly, I never found either an entrance or exit hole.  Others have great success with the X-type bullets and I will probably give them another try.  Of all the X bullet styles, I believe the Triple Shock is the best - it gives enhanced velocities like the XLC but without the blue coating and copper fouling doesn't seem to be an issue.  I still have a bunch of 160g XLC's loaded for my 7mm Mag and I just bought 2 more boxes of special 7mm OEM XLC's from Midway for $12 each.  (These have a cannelure and may have been made for PMC but, whoever, I think they are switching to Triple Shocks.)  Looks like I'll be shooting XLC's for a while and TSX's even longer.  Just not sure how much hunting I'll do with them.

The CT Failsafes are very similar to the Barnes X bullets and should give similar performance.  I don't think the fact that they have a lead core in their rear section makes any real difference in terminal performance.  Zero personal or even secondhand experience.

The Swift A-Frames are of significant interest to me if only because in test after test they have nearly 100% weight retention, mushroom uniformly and provide excellent penetration.  These are definitely on the list of bullets I will try in my 7mm Mag and probably my .257 Roberts.

The Swift Scirocco bullets are also of high interest - of all the recently introduced bonded core bullets (Interbond, Accubond, Remington Core-Lokt Ultra), the Sciroccos have the heaviest jackets by a considerable margin.  Some tests in gelatin or animal glue indicate they may expand too much for my taste, at least for elk, but I suspect they would be excellent for mule deer and smaller.

Kodiak bullets have a thinner jacket than I prefer, although they seem to work well.  I have some 350g bullets to test in my .45-70.

The Nosler Accubond, Hornady Interlock and Remington Core-Lokt Ultra are close enough in construction that I'm not sure there will be a discernable difference in terminal performance.

So, what will I be hunting with this fall?  It depends on how much more load development I can get done before hunting seasons roll around.  As it stands now, and barring successful load development with the Swift A-Frame:


.45-70 = 350g North Fork
7mm Rem Mag = 160g Grand Slam
.257 Roberts = 115g Barnes TSX

[Mac11700]

CoyoteHunter:

Sounds like you got it covered...I've got 3 different bullets to work up for my 308...all 150 grainers CT Patition Golds...Speers Grand Slams. and Hornady's SST...of those 3 which would you choose for large whitetails???


Mac

[Coyote Hunter]

CoyoteHunter:

Sounds like you got it covered...I've got 3 different bullets to work up for my 308...all 150 grainers CT Patition Golds...Speers Grand Slams. and Hornady's SST...of those 3 which would you choose for large whitetails???


Mac

Mac -

I can't think any of them would be a bad choice, but I would probably go with the Grand Slam simply because 20+ years of experience with the 160g 7mm on elk at ranges of 100 yards to 350.  The elk tend to drop in their tracks.

Just got back from MO (Stockton) and IA (Des Moines area).  We always see deer in MO, but I saw more whitetail in Iowa in 3 days than I saw as a kid growing up there.  Good luck this year.

[Lawdog]

Coyote Hunter,

Since the Partitions have a well-deserved reputation for losing their front core, they were intentionally omitted from the list.

You know I have heard that BUT never have seen it happen in all the game that I have taken using Partitions.  I have only recovered around 20 or so bullets(most all from bears and hogs) and all that I did recover weighted within 90% or more of the original bullets weight.  Most Partitions go in one side and out the other so there was never anything to weight.  Never had the front part get wiped off on game.  If Partitions had their front lead part get wiped off all the time hunters would have dumped them many years ago for not working.  Partitions work and have worked for many, many years which is why other bullet manufactures compare their bullets to the Partition.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[Coyote Hunter]

Lawdog -

Although I've never hunted with Partitions, I know some hunters who swear by them.  The only recovered partiton I have seen was completely missing the front core.

[longwinters]

Coyote Hunter,

Just an observation since you have made a couple of comments about how many of us interpreted your question.  I think the responses have been based on your question (which was pretty open ended) rather than your specific examples.  I guess with us you will  typically hear opinions relevant to, but not necessarily specific to, a question posted

LW

[Lawdog]

Coyote Hunter,

Although I've never hunted with Partitions, I know some hunters who swear by them. The only recovered partiton I have seen was completely missing the front core.

Just because I am curious would you remember what the animal was and where was it hit that the bullet was able to be recovered, the cartridge and bullet weight of the Partition?  Lawdog
 

[Coyote Hunter]

Just because I am curious would you remember what the animal was and where was it hit that the bullet was able to be recovered, the cartridge and bullet weight of the Partition?  Lawdog
 

The shot belonged to my old boss and he kept the case and recovered bullet on his desk.  The cartridge was a .358 Winchester, IIRC, and probably the 225g Partition.  (I doubt Ken would have used the .358" 180g Partition for elk.)   Not sure if it was a bull or a cow elk, but cow seems to ring a bell.  Also not sure about shot placement.  He was hunting off the east side of Highway 13 north of Craig, Colorado, on private land.  The year was 2001 or 2002.

If you want more particulars, send me a PM or email and I'll give you Ken's cell phone number.

[PaulS]

For large or dangerous game I have always used Nosler partitions. I use a 3006 and 358 winchester - 180 grainers in both. I have never lost an animal and any recovered bullets (not many in 30 years of hunting) have had their forward cores mostly intact. Some of the lead is scrubbed away by hitting bone and such but the forward section always has lead in it. The other bullets I shoot are standard fare Speer, Hornady and Sierra pills that perform as required on deer up to the size of our normal mulies in the Pacific Northwest. i see no need to use premium bullets when Speer bullets work as well as they do.

PaulS

[TNrifleman]

Like the 30-'06, the Nosler Partition is never a poor choice. I don't hunt with a '06, but I do use Partitions. They do the job every time. I'll stick with a long proven performer-NOSLER PARTITION.

[Lawdog]

Coyote Hunter,

I don't need Ken's cell phone number.  I was just curious as in the number of recovered Partitions that I have(or seen) the only ones that ever had the front lead wiped off was due to hitting heavy bone and only then on quartering shots.  I have shot a number of number of large animals and the only Partitions I ever recovered were from quartering shots and even then many exited the animal.  The only few Partitions that I ever saw the forward lead got wiped off was upon hitting heavy shoulder blade bone on quartering shots.  But these shots have wiped off petals from Barnes X(and XLC), lead from Swift A-Frames and other so called premium bullets.  A bonded bullet doesn’t always mean it’s a good bullet.  The Hornady SST Interbond is a great example of this.  At higher velocities they have a tendency to fragment upon hitting bone.  I have seen this(and had it happen to me) way to many times to trust them in a magnum caliber.  Same with Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets.  But do you think it is fair to say that all Partitions have this happen over this one incident?  I mean do we condemn all Barnes bullets just because of a few that had their petals wiped off or Swift A-Frames just because I have seen them get the front wiped off?  Lawdog
 

[jackfish]

There is no such thing as a Hornady SST Interbond.

The Hornady SST and Hornady Interbond are two different bullets.

[Lawdog]

jackfish,

The Hornady SST Interbond is a great example of this.

I am sorry for forgetting the comma and & in between the SST and Interbond.  I did hit the keys but it either didn't print it or I am way to fast for the computer(which I do not think so at my age).  My apologies to everyone but the statement still stands.  Small groups and tight lines to all.  Lawdog
 

[Longcruise]

Lawdog, I'm curious just how many animals you have hit with interbonds!!

[Lawdog]

Long,

One large Wild Boar.  Shot went into the left shoulder and broke apart on the shoulder blade.  My son tried them on Mule Deer last year with almost the same results on two different bucks.  I have also talked to others that have had less than good results using them.  Lawdog
 

[Coyote Hunter]

...But do you think it is fair to say that all Partitions have this happen over this one incident?  I mean do we condemn all Barnes bullets just because of a few that had their petals wiped off or Swift A-Frames just because I have seen them get the front wiped off?  Lawdog
 

Nope.  Please don't get me wrong, I think the Partition is a good bullet - that's why Federal factory ammo with 160g Partitions was my 7mm Mag backup ammo for many years - and probably will be again this fall.

Granted, my personal experience with recovered Partition bullets is a sample of one - hardly fair to call it a "well-deserved reputation for losing their front core" based on that alone.  But I have heard enough second- and third-hand reports to believe its not exactly an uncommon phenomenom.  

That said, one has to ask if it matters - I don't recall ever hearing a reliable report that a well placed Partition failed to do the job.

[jackfish]

Lawdog, I don't know if the experience you cite is with the 1st generation of Hornady Interbonds or not.  But there is a distinct difference between the first Interbonds produced and what is on the market now.  I have previously heard similar reports of inadequate performance and those instances were with the early Interbonds.  From what I have gathered the current Interbonds are excellent performers on game, particularly if launched below 3000 fps.
North Dakota, 154 grain Interbond, 280 Rem AI, 2950 fps, 100 yards, dropped at the shot.
I believe Interbonds to be an excellent bullet for whitetails and mule deer.
JJHACK has reported excellent results with the 165 grain Interbond in the 30-06 on African plains game, elk and large russian hogs.  JJHACK's story

[Longcruise]

Such difference in results makes me wonder if some are talking about Interlock Hornadys and some about Interbond :?

Just trying to clarify :grin:

I read a test report in a gun rag (for whatever that is worth :grin:) where the 180 grain .30 cal A /Frame, Scirrocco, Accubond and (165 grain)Interbond were compared.  The interbond came out better than the accubond based on percent of retained weight.  Looking at the cross sectionals, I'd say the Interbond was built tougher.  The .30 cal 180 grain Interbond was not yet available at the time of the test.

Here is my question;  Does anybody have any direct experience with the interbond at lower velocities.  I often hunt with 30 cal with impact velocities ranging from 2200 fps to 2550 fps.  Would surely like some first hand info on performance in that range.

Last year I used the 180 Barnes XBT on two elk at about 2500 fps impact and the results were excellent.  Problem is accuracy was 4 moa at best.  I know I could experiment to the point of finding better accuracy but at the price of the X bullets it sorta cost prohibitive.  Also would like lesser cost than the X to allow for more economical practice sessions with the hunting load.

The Nosler Partition has been a great bullet for me and other family memvers in the .270 and that may be the go to bullet this year but the 180 grain Interbond looks pretty good too.

[longwinters]

Long C,

In that article did you notice the accuracy comparisons?  I found it disappointing in the poor accuracy of the Interbond compared to the others.  

Long W.

[Longcruise]

Long W, no, did not recall the accuracy comparisons.  OTOH, while the expansion penetration tests may speak for overall bullet performance to be expected by most hunters, the accuracy results could be just the opposite with a different rifle, powder, etc.

Many shooters report getting great accuracy with the X bullets but with my rifle and load they just did not shoot very accurately.  The elk OTOH had no comment

[leverfan]

I"m not sure why folks are down on Partitions for losing their front cores (not that this happens every time, but a lot of the front tends to be missing, should you happen to recover one).  The Partition is supposed to be fast opening, with high chance of secondary fragments and wound tracks, in the front end.  The hind end holds over two thirds of the weight, and it'll stick together, assuring penetration.  That's two bullets for the price of one.  You get a wider wound channel than a Fail Safe or an X-Bullet can give you, usually, but you get almost as much penetration, even if you hit bone.  Those petals on the X-Bullets and Fail Safes are also supposed to break off when the bullet nails a heavy bone or makes a high-velocity impact.  That also insures penetration, so it's not a case of bullet failure when you don't have 100% of the bullet's mass holding together.  It's not necessary, and in some cases, holding on to a wide frontal area will impede penetration, even when the bullet retains all its weight.  Bonded, 95% to 100% weight retained bullets are not the be-all end-all of bullet design, although they certainly have a place in the hunting fields.  I still like the "two bullets for the price of one" effect that you get from Partitions.

[jackfish]

In the Shooting Times article on bonded bullets Rick Jamison admits that he did not work up loads for accuracy.  I get .9" five-shot 100-yard groups with the 154 grain Interbonds in my 280 Rem AI.   I think that's good enough for hunting?  Of course this piece of junk Weatherby Mark V Lightweight Synthetic even shoots Remington 140 grain factory ammo under 3" when fireforming.

[Zachary]

I"m not sure why folks are down on Partitions for losing their front cores (not that this happens every time, but a lot of the front tends to be missing, should you happen to recover one).  The Partition is supposed to be fast opening, with high chance of secondary fragments and wound tracks, in the front end.  The hind end holds over two thirds of the weight, and it'll stick together, assuring penetration.  That's two bullets for the price of one.  You get a wider wound channel than a Fail Safe or an X-Bullet can give you, usually, but you get almost as much penetration, even if you hit bone.  Those petals on the X-Bullets and Fail Safes are also supposed to break off when the bullet nails a heavy bone or makes a high-velocity impact.  That also insures penetration, so it's not a case of bullet failure when you don't have 100% of the bullet's mass holding together.  It's not necessary, and in some cases, holding on to a wide frontal area will impede penetration, even when the bullet retains all its weight.  Bonded, 95% to 100% weight retained bullets are not the be-all end-all of bullet design, although they certainly have a place in the hunting fields.  I still like the "two bullets for the price of one" effect that you get from Partitions.

I may like Barnes X bullets, and Trophy Bonded Bullets, and other bonded bullets, but, truth be told, I agree with everything that you said.  I still shoot Partitions, even today.  What worked well 20 years ago, still works very well today.

Zachary

[crazyjjk]

Leverfan hit the nail right on the head. The Nosler Partitions do exactly what they were built to do (two bullets in one). Been using them for around 25 yrs and never had a failure. Can't say that for a lot of the others I have tried. >John

[Coyote Hunter]

I"m not sure why folks are down on Partitions for losing their front cores (not that this happens every time, but a lot of the front tends to be missing, should you happen to recover one).  

leverfan -

There is a difference between acknowledging a fact, that Partitions can lose their cores, and being "down on Partitions for losing their front cores".  If there wasn't, I wouldn't use the Federal 160g Partition loads as my backups for my handloads.  (Meaning I take a box along for the hunt, but have never taken them afield.)  I looked back through the posts and didn't really see any that were "down" on Partitions.

[goose7856]

I was about to purchase some 150 grain 30-06 Light Magnum Hornady Interbonds, but now that I hear all the concerns about bullets breaking apart, etc. I am reconsidering.  I want the light magnum just for the extra fps, fr longer shots.  Does this mean that if I hit a deer at 3000 fps at a 100 yards the bullet is "going to blow up".  I want a long range cartridge, but yet I want it to work for the shorter ranges also.

Thanx ahead of time.......

[Longcruise]

Does this mean that if I hit a deer at 3000 fps at a 100 yards the bullet is "going to blow up". I want a long range cartridge, but yet I want it to work for the shorter ranges also

Probably not many choices better than the X bullet if they are accurate in your gun.  Long and short range performance are both good.  They won't blow but they may shave their petals.  If your shooting deer it's not going to matter much.

I'm not going back to the X becuase of finicky accuracy.  Partitions never gave me any accuracy problems :-)

[goose7856]

Has anyone had problems with the Hornady Light Magnum 150 grain Interbond "blowing up"?? (short or long ranges).  I am mainly looking for the fps, for the longer shots.  I did some research and based upon numbers and fps the cartridge listed above is the best.  Does anyone know a cartridge that shoots faster than 3100 fps (at muzzle) with 3200 muzzle energy??  Based on the ballistics charts it sates that it shoots 1.4 inch high at a 100, dead on at 200, and -6.6 in (something close to that) low at 300 yards.  Seems like a good bullet, but I only have experience with Federal Premium Vital Shock 150 grain, 30-06, soft point boat-tail, 2910 fps.  Did the job (last year got a new Rem. 700 ADL, took 5 does, 4 dropped other ran 75 yards) but I am looking for a lil more fps.

Thanx

[Coyote Hunter]

goose7856 -

The faster you drive a standard "cup and core" bullet, the hard time it is going to have holding together - especially at close range when heavy bone is engountered.  That's one reason I don't mind paying extra for my hunting bullets.

You might want to take a look at Federal's 165g/3000fps/Speer Trophy Bonded load (P3006T4).  This is one of their Premium Vital-Shok loads, and it carries 3300fpe at the muzzle.  Zeroed for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6" kill zone:

- 1.5" @ Muzzle
+ 2.6" @ 100
+ 2.1" @ 200
- 4.1" @ 300
-17.2" @ 400

[goose7856]

Can you give me a website with this ammo.  I am very interested because I shoot Federal Vital Shock right now but at 2910 fps.  I cant find the product you are referring too.  Thanx ALOT!!