Big problems with an "over the counter" class.

[volleyman]

While it is a simple idea to have an over the counter class, there are big troubles in  the actual implementation of it.
 
   First, if you allow shooters to shoot a T/C contender (the most common silhouette gun) in the class you will create a rush for used guns and barrels as T/C no longer makes a barrel shorter than 12". The top gun in a standard class would be a used contender with a 10" bull barrel with T/C silhouette sights(tough to find) on it. All other guns would not be competitive. To not allow the T/C contender would limit many of your new members who already own one.
   
  Second, it be like the old days, the best shooters will buy 10-20 guns of the same model, shoot them for groups, keep the best one , and sell the rest. Don't fool yourself, if you want to start a competition, you will get people who are competitive and they will push the rules but not break the letter of the rules. With a 5 year moratorium on rule changes, you could do nothing for 5 years, while the membership whines about how unfair it is.
   
  Third, there will be a large turn over in guns. As soon a manufacture comes out with a better gun or upgraded one, everyone will have to get that one to be competitive again. Heres an example: If  Ruger comes out with upgraded sights (Bomar) on their 10" Mark II, every has to sell their old Mark II's and buy the new one to remain competitive.

 IHMSA has been through this and the members have rejected this old thinking (they voted the aftermarket sight rule in). It has proven to be a better system to allow shooters to upgrade their grips, sights and triggers as their ability and needs warrant. More guns will remain competitive with upgraded sights.
 
  Fourth, Each "standard, over the counter" class will become a single model gun class, just as Production Air has become. You shoot a Daisy 747 or you put yourself in a big hole.  The new shooter will know what gun they need to get to reach the top of the class. Without the C,B,A,AA,AAA classes the shooter will have no option, but to buy the top gun the winners are shooting if they ever want to make it to the top.

How are you going to address these and other problems???

[K2]

Nope you are wrong again.

TC got out of silhouette because we made them go head to head against super custom guns that take up to a year to get special order.  

Ruger never will put bomars on the Mark II cause that won't increase sales but would greatly increase costs.

Today anyone buying 20 guns at a time will run the risk of being prosecuted as an illegal gun dealer so this is a red herring.  Even if you did get the best Ruger ever built the difference between it and another Ruger would be less than that other Ruger and an FA.  

Only the fellows that thought winning at all costs wanted to turn Production into short barreled Unlimited.  They got their way and the declining membership is the price that has been paid.  The only difference between an MOA or BF and an Unlimited gun is the barrel length and the lack of a bolt action.  While these specialty guns are superior to a truly mass produced gun they still sell very few of them per year.  This isn't a way to growth.  AIR proved that even some of our top shooters would shoot inexpensive equipment if that was the only option.  You did and that is proof enough for me  :wink: The fact that you went to the trouble to build a sight where none existed tells me you want any equipment edge you can get regardless of what this will do to the popularity of the game.  

With rule changes only possible in 5 year time lines we can spend the time on promotion instead of arguing over equipment.  If all use a few guns that is just fine.  This is what we have in Revolver today, all FA's and I don't hear the FA owners complaining.  

In short everything you see as a problem I see as why there will be a lot of growth to the game.  

The Board of Directors number 1 job is to promote the sport.  Tey have only been able to run the cost of competitive equipment up and the result is the membership decline.  Economics is and will remain why a sport grows or doesn't.    When the sport is seen as a good value for the $ in terms of enjoyment and a worthwhile thing to spend recreational dollars on it will grow.  The memberhip decline is telling us that the cost is higher than the return of enjoyment received.  

Is a BF in 7US or a MOA in 6.5BR going to beat a TC in .357 mag?  Yup.  However TC will sell a bunch more .357's in a year than BF and MOA will sell 7US's, and BR's combined so you tell me where the most potential growth is  :wink:  

The BF's and MOA's belong in a custom category cause that is what they are, very fine custom guns with all the bells and whistles.  

Silhouette continues to play with equipment rules running up the cost and then complaining that participation is down.  Duh.  Any Economic 101 student can tell you the problem with this.  

For FP we continue to expand the calibers (25-20 is the latest yawner approved) and fail to do what will put people on the line, making it a full discipline with freestyle events and a real world revolver category.  What do we have 5 or 6 members shooting a 25-20?  Ask a shooter at the local range if he is interested in buying a pistol in 25-20 and you will get a blank stare.  Ask him if he would be interested in shooting his 6 inch Ruger GP 100 or Smith 686 against like revolvers and he might ask you for more information.  

While it is a simple idea to have an over the counter class, there are big troubles in  the actual implementation of it.
 
   First, if you allow shooters to shoot a T/C contender (the most common silhouette gun) in the class you will create a rush for used guns and barrels as T/C no longer makes a barrel shorter than 12". The top gun in a standard class would be a used contender with a 10" bull barrel with T/C silhouette sights(tough to find) on it. All other guns would not be competitive. To not allow the T/C contender would limit many of your new members who already own one.
   
  Second, it be like the old days, the best shooters will buy 10-20 guns of the same model, shoot them for groups, keep the best one , and sell the rest. Don't fool yourself, if you want to start a competition, you will get people who are competitive and they will push the rules but not break the letter of the rules. With a 5 year moratorium on rule changes, you could do nothing for 5 years, while the membership whines about how unfair it is.
   
  Third, there will be a large turn over in guns. As soon a manufacture comes out with a better gun or upgraded one, everyone will have to get that one to be competitive again. Heres an example: If  Ruger comes out with upgraded sights (Bomar) on their 10" Mark II, every has to sell their old Mark II's and buy the new one to remain competitive.

 IHMSA has been through this and the members have rejected this old thinking (they voted the aftermarket sight rule in). It has proven to be a better system to allow shooters to upgrade their grips, sights and triggers as their ability and needs warrant. More guns will remain competitive with upgraded sights.
 
  Fourth, Each "standard, over the counter" class will become a single model gun class, just as Production Air has become. You shoot a Daisy 747 or you put yourself in a big hole.  The new shooter will know what gun they need to get to reach the top of the class. Without the C,B,A,AA,AAA classes the shooter will have no option, but to buy the top gun the winners are shooting if they ever want to make it to the top.

How are you going to address these and other problems???

[volleyman]

Ruger never will put bomars on the Mark II cause that won't increase sales but would greatly increase costs.[/b]

S&W has in the past and may still offer upgraded sights on their revolvers.

Today anyone buying 20 guns at a time will run the risk of being prosecuted as an illegal gun dealer so this is a red herring.  Even if you did get the best Ruger ever built the difference between it and another Ruger would be less than that other Ruger and an FA.  

Check your IHMSA history.. It was commonly done when our only choice was equiptment not refined for job of silhouette. Many times in the last 5 years a gun other than a FA has won Revolver at the Internationals. If you get a good Ruger, S&W, or DW it will be competitive with the FA's. If you go into a gun store to buy one or the other, there is just a better chance that that FA will be the better shooter of two random guns. It's just a fact that FA has better quality controls and they line bore their revolvers. Also FA has been a very strong supporter of IHMSA. They are at the Internationals and donate revolvers and other stuff for our drawings.

Only the fellows that thought winning at all costs wanted to turn Production into short barreled Unlimited.  They got their way and the declining membership is the price that has been paid.

Where is your proof that both are related?? You are only stating what you wish to believe. Show us your proof or shut the F@@K up.


The fact that you went to the trouble to build a sight where none existed tells me you want any equipment edge you can get regardless of what this will do to the popularity of the game.

I built a sight package because the Air shooters demanded it with their vote to allow aftermarket sights. Many shooters wanted a taco sight setup so they could shoot the 3 gun aggs. If I wouldn't have built it someone else would have. I just knew how to built the best one.

The Board of Directors number 1 job is to promote the sport.  They have only been able to run the cost of competitive equipment up and the result is the membership decline.  

Again, you state an unproven statement. Do you think if you repeat it enough we are that dumb that we will believe it??

Economics is and will remain why a sport grows or doesn't.    When the sport is seen as a good value for the $ in terms of enjoyment and a worthwhile thing to spend recreational dollars on it will grow.  The membership decline is telling us that the cost is higher than the return of enjoyment received.  

Silhouette is still one of the cheapest (and has the greatest people)
 shooting sports to get into. With our class system to can get into the sport as deep as you want to go. Shoot at local matches with what you have in your gun safe or spend the money for better equiptment and travel around the USA or the World to compete with the big boys. You can go as far as your ability allows.


The BF's and MOA's belong in a custom category cause that is what they are, very fine custom guns with all the bells and whistles.  

Nice job knocking two of the most supportive manufactures in the sport. They have listened to our concerns to build a better mousetrap when the major manufactures turned the other way. They have pushed the accuracy potential of handguns to new levels, levels that only rifles were capable of. Just what Elgin G. was looking for. They build guns that comply with our "Production" rules.

Silhouette continues to play with equipment rules running up the cost and then complaining that participation is down.  Duh.  Any Economic 101 student can tell you the problem with this.  

Our rules have been very stable over the last 5 years, with only minor revisions for additional weight for unlimited guns. The only reason there was changes in the Air classes was because some fool :twisted:  wrote rules that were in conflict with the existing rules in the other categories.

 Ask him if he would be interested in shooting his 6 inch Ruger GP 100 or Smith 686 against like revolvers and he might ask you for more information.  [

Be sure to tell him that if he shoots that gun in Field Pistol standing, that on a very good day if he is a great shot he may get 10-15 targets  out of 40. To get new shooters and keep them they have to have more success at their first match. A score of 50% or more is what will keep them coming back. That is why you see so many new shooters start in the UAS classes. They want to hit a lot of targets and knock them down. For your "short barreled" classes you might as well rename them "waste of ammo" class. They are fun to try at a fun match, but don't expect it to become a popular class.

[BC]

Are ya'll married? :-D

[volleyman]

Are ya'll married? :-D

Nope, just going steady. Kelly wants to tie the knot, but I want to play the field a while longer :roll: And those long distance relationships never work out. :cry:

[K2]

Not yet, Stevie keeps wanting to modify his wedding dress, he bought 10 the other day just to see which one would be the "best" and still isn't happy  :-D

I keep telling him that since no one is coming to watch it really doesn't matter  :roll:

Are ya'll married? :-D

[teamnelson]

Well that was an embarassing way to air good points all around ...

As a newbie (started 1/04) to IHMSA, I started with 2 over the counter class revolvers. Shot B for awhile. Got a TC, now I'm AA in SB and FP, and climbing. Still shooting the Ruger Bisley .44 in BB cause I'm stubborn

In any event, volleyman's point is clear - a newbie with his GP100 will be very frustrated after 2 matches, and quit or buy a TC ... UNLESS the local club is VERY supportive. I've said it before, if it weren't for Major, I would've quit, because blowing $$ to get a 5 or 6 is unrewarding. It takes coaching, time and encouragement to keep back at it. Major helped me with my dope, fundamentals and reloads to where I may even make A class this weekend.

So to me the point of your discussion ought to be - how do you attract, and KEEP, new shooters to a highly competitive, and equipment dependent sport? If you leave things the way they are, then you place the burden on the local clubs, which means no change from the present. Whatever changes are made, will still require the support of the local clubs i.e. if the whole club is shooting TCs, and you create a new class, what will they do with that change? Will they advertise, drum up business? Will they be sensitive to the new shooters? Or will the environment be such that the new shooter will want to quit or buy a TC anyway, in which case, how is that different from now?

And if I were TC, I'd be paying attention to this thread.

[K2]

HI Team Nelson  

You can make AA with a GP100 if you try.  Major shoots his Rugers very well.  He used to shoot a Python very well, ask him about it.  Don't think he ever owned a TC  :wink:  Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with a TC but they were no longer selling well to the Silhouette crowd.  

The real question is how are we going to keep you using your Bisley if you don't think it will shoot with the FA's and you become interested in winning?  We need more Ruger shooters not less!

You are correct that  small club advertising is generally not very effective.  FP could easily grow with a Revolver category so they do not have to shoot against the single shots for glory.  This happened years ago in Big Bore creating the then new Revolver category.  If they do have to go against the single shots they don't show up at all generally.  

Tombstone will continue to enjoy Silhouette as long as Major is there to keep it going so be thankful you have such a great guy for MD and don't fret over the politics too much.  With practice you should be AA in just about everything by fall.   You are very fortunate in having a coach and mentor that knows the ropes, hopefully you will fill that role in the future, so learn well    

Well that was an embarassing way to air good points all around ...

As a newbie (started 1/04) to IHMSA, I started with 2 over the counter class revolvers. Shot B for awhile. Got a TC, now I'm AA in SB and FP, and climbing. Still shooting the Ruger Bisley .44 in BB cause I'm stubborn

In any event, volleyman's point is clear - a newbie with his GP100 will be very frustrated after 2 matches, and quit or buy a TC ... UNLESS the local club is VERY supportive. I've said it before, if it weren't for Major, I would've quit, because blowing $$ to get a 5 or 6 is unrewarding. It takes coaching, time and encouragement to keep back at it. Major helped me with my dope, fundamentals and reloads to where I may even make A class this weekend.

So to me the point of your discussion ought to be - how do you attract, and KEEP, new shooters to a highly competitive, and equipment dependent sport? If you leave things the way they are, then you place the burden on the local clubs, which means no change from the present. Whatever changes are made, will still require the support of the local clubs i.e. if the whole club is shooting TCs, and you create a new class, what will they do with that change? Will they advertise, drum up business? Will they be sensitive to the new shooters? Or will the environment be such that the new shooter will want to quit or buy a TC anyway, in which case, how is that different from now?

And if I were TC, I'd be paying attention to this thread.

[haroldclark]

Your writings have touched on a subject that is haunting me as I write.

In February of this year, I started a Long Range Handgun Shoot.  It is a fun shoot with no prizes except for the bragging rights.  

In the beginning, as with all beginnings, we started out with production Thompson Contenders and Encores.  However, two guys opted for Bullberry barrels and complete heavy wood systems.  

We shoot at the Rifle Silhouette Range at the Rifle Targets from 200 meters to 500 meters.  We set the Rams light so we can knock them over with a handgun.  We started out with 6 shooters and in August, I'm expecting 12.  As the months roll by, more shooters will probably participate.

I am currently worried about those that can't spend large sums on equipment being able to compete.  So far, we have one XP-100 with a huge custom barrel in 30 BR, the 7-30 Bullberry, a 7-08 Bullberry (AI) with huge barrel and custom muzzle brake and a Winchester Super Short 6.5 mm Magnum with a JP Howitzer Muzzle Brake.

So far, the top score has been the 7-30 Bullberry with a 39 out of 40 targets with an out of the box 7mm TCU 14" Contender with a 38 out of 40.  I hesitatd to form classes since the 7mm TCU shooter held top score, but I fear that is about to become less likely.

I am about to form an unlimited class and a stock class.  However, restricting the stock class to factory grips and fore ends is not acceptable to me or the shooters.  If one allows the grips and fore end to be changed, where does it stop?  Another thought going around by some of the already unlimited guys is that only a stock class can win the overall match.

By the way, that Howitzer Muzzle brake is a noise blasting area clearing beast.  I have one on a 308 and I have declared it a sad waste of money and a mistake, besides.

I shot some Handgun Silhouette in the early days of the game and I witnessed the arms race that began.  I am concerned that an Arms Race may be the undoing of my match.  There is hardly any IHMSA shooting left in California to my knowledge.  We still have a range set up for the Hangun Silhouette.  It is used by a very few guys.  Our Cowboy shooters are using the Ram line for their Lever Guns.

We have over 800 members at our club and there is potential for this game, the long range handgun shoot, to expand with us older guys.  We shoot from a bench rest with scopes.  That's right down our alley.  Getting up off the ground requires assistance for some of us and I only get on the ground by accident.

Any advise you may have will be greatly appreciated.

Harold Clark

[volleyman]

500 meter handgun silhouette is a tough game with unlimited guns. Were the 38's and 39's shot freestyle (no artificial support) or shot off a bench? Are all the guns scoped? Most 500 meter handgun matches are broken into two classes, open sights and scoped. If you shoot off benches, then check with the benchrester's and you might get an idea how to make up classes. Maybe weight? If you are shooting in an IHMSA legal freestyle position then I would go with just open and scoped classes to get many of the CA shooters that shoot the 500 meter game.

[K2]

Hi Harold  

I think you decide what will work in your area and run with it.  The key to sucess is particpation.  If no one shows up that will tell you to make a change or two.  In CA you are up against equipment problems from the get go.  I do not think Encore pistols are being imported there but you will know more on that than I do.  Bolt guns may be a real problem unless they are already there.  

Like you we have silhouette ranges and equipment around our state and no IHMSA shooters running the match.  I suspect the arms race as you call it had something to do with that.  Appearently it was big here also.  

What appears to be in demand here is a low budget over the counter game to play.  We have lots of outdoor recreation options in Alaska and you can eat a lot of them (Fresh Sockeye is hard to beat ;~).   To make it work here we are going to have rifle as well as pistol and bias the games to what people already own.  The more you specialize the smaller the potential group that will particpate.  Money matters no matter what you might hear.   This is why there are more VW owners than Porsche owners.  Brakes are miserable to be around in my experience, few shooters own them as compared to those who do not so from a participation standpoint they are a loser in my not so humble opinion  :-D

Regardless of target size, distance shot, or equipment used it is a fun game.  For growth focus on the FUN.   :wink:

Do what you think is best and good luck to you.  Talk to your shooters for the best info on what they would like.  

Your writings have touched on a subject that is haunting me as I write.

In February of this year, I started a Long Range Handgun Shoot.  It is a fun shoot with no prizes except for the bragging rights.  

In the beginning, as with all beginnings, we started out with production Thompson Contenders and Encores.  However, two guys opted for Bullberry barrels and complete heavy wood systems.  

We shoot at the Rifle Silhouette Range at the Rifle Targets from 200 meters to 500 meters.  We set the Rams light so we can knock them over with a handgun.  We started out with 6 shooters and in August, I'm expecting 12.  As the months roll by, more shooters will probably participate.

I am currently worried about those that can't spend large sums on equipment being able to compete.  So far, we have one XP-100 with a huge custom barrel in 30 BR, the 7-30 Bullberry, a 7-08 Bullberry (AI) with huge barrel and custom muzzle brake and a Winchester Super Short 6.5 mm Magnum with a JP Howitzer Muzzle Brake.

So far, the top score has been the 7-30 Bullberry with a 39 out of 40 targets with an out of the box 7mm TCU 14" Contender with a 38 out of 40.  I hesitatd to form classes since the 7mm TCU shooter held top score, but I fear that is about to become less likely.

I am about to form an unlimited class and a stock class.  However, restricting the stock class to factory grips and fore ends is not acceptable to me or the shooters.  If one allows the grips and fore end to be changed, where does it stop?  Another thought going around by some of the already unlimited guys is that only a stock class can win the overall match.

By the way, that Howitzer Muzzle brake is a noise blasting area clearing beast.  I have one on a 308 and I have declared it a sad waste of money and a mistake, besides.

I shot some Handgun Silhouette in the early days of the game and I witnessed the arms race that began.  I am concerned that an Arms Race may be the undoing of my match.  There is hardly any IHMSA shooting left in California to my knowledge.  We still have a range set up for the Hangun Silhouette.  It is used by a very few guys.  Our Cowboy shooters are using the Ram line for their Lever Guns.

We have over 800 members at our club and there is potential for this game, the long range handgun shoot, to expand with us older guys.  We shoot from a bench rest with scopes.  That's right down our alley.  Getting up off the ground requires assistance for some of us and I only get on the ground by accident.

Any advise you may have will be greatly appreciated.

Harold Clark