Reloads or Factory Ammo for Dangerous Game?

[jaycocreek]

Some people imply that in the .454 one should use Factory Ammo instead of reloads for dangerous game or protection.Here is just one opinion.

This issue is so important that I am compelled to state something entirely contrary to my handloader’s ego: Those hunting dangerous game with the 454 are strongly advised to use an appropriate factory load. Having handloaded and fired many thousands of 454 rounds, using various types of bullets (ranging from 200 grains to 525 grains), and having listened to many accounts from other serious 454 users, I am persuaded that it is truly difficult to produce full-power 454 handloads that are 100% dependable!

At least one handloading Alaskan hunter has found out the hard way that a pulled bullet is certain to occur at the worst possible time – as just you fire a shot that wounds, but does not stop, an enraged Kodiak bear intent upon serious mayhem. While that hunter is reported to have survived, we suspect he learned that a 454 revolver is something less than an effective club.

I am not saying that you cannot produce 100% reliable full-power 454 loads. What I am saying is this, I would prefer to use factory ammo for such applications
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What is your opinion?.......Jayco.

[Rmouleart]

Personally the only reason to use factory ammo is due to hunting a very wet environment, foul most of the time, this could cause a misfire in reloaded ammo,wet powder, due to not having water proofing around the primer and bullet ,the factory ammo is weather proofed(sealed)in those area's,Alaska is a place that has foul weather a great deal, using the factory ammo would make sense, other than that, my reloads are more accurate and reliable, there is some type of sealing fluid you can seal your reloads during reloading, but its a pain to do. I can custom load a cart bye reloading, where using factory ammo you are stuck to what they loaded. There is a few attributes using factory ammo, but not enough for me to want to use factory ammo, other than the reason I stated. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

[jaycocreek]

Rambo-I found an interesting site on brass for the .454 and how they rate and thought you might find it interesting.Thickness and such.
http://www.levergun.com/articles/454_case.htm

Buffalo Bore writes this about the .454 and there reloading of it.


The .454 Casull is one cartridge that BBA does not load to it's full pressure limit. When loaded to it's full pressure potential the .454 Casull can become unreliable and unpleasant to shoot.  At upper pressure levels, heavy bullets tend to jump crimp  - tying up the cylinder. (wouldn't this be great in an emergency)  Also, fired brass can stick in the chambers.  BBA feels that a 360 gr. bullet (or 325 gr. bullet at 1525 fps) at 1425 fps is still very powerful, comfortable to shoot, and TOTALLY RELIABLE. At these levels, these bullets give up nothing in killing performance.

It makes one wonder about loading the .454 to its potential with a heavy bullet and how reliable it is....Jayco.

And here is just one more opinion for factory ammo....


M.L. McPherson

Synopsis: We now have many factory ammunition options for use in 454 Casull chambered revolvers. In terms of energy, these loads range from top-end 44 Magnum to nearly 308 Winchester rifle levels. Bullet designs include non-expanding, controlled expansion and violent expansion. Generally, these loads offer exemplary performance. Importantly, it is quite difficult for the handloader to create 454 ammunition surpassing factory offerings in terms of accuracy, energy or (especially) functionality.

Jayco

[Rmouleart]

Jayco don't buy into that crap, A good reloader can produce as good or better round for his rifle than any factory ammo MFG, remember you are customizing your load, don't mean you have to be shooting max loads, I use 300gr Hornady XTP in front 30gr of win296, rem primers 6 1/2, and a lee factory crimp, never jumped a crimp from a lee, if done right, works great in my SRH454 casull, and believe me there is no animal that can tell the difference of a max loaded cart and one that is at the start of the load, the casull is under estimated bye far,A very powerful handgun cart, Man hunters have been killing big game with 44 mags for thirty over years, and the 44 mag has much less power of the 454 casull, Bottom line Jaco is shot placement, no matter how much fire power you have it don't matter if you can not hit the side of the barn or as they say put it in the ten ring/kill zone;) controlling your shots, having good accuracy is what I look for, the power band don't mean nothing to me when working a load, I look for the utmost accuracy, Also some hunters just fall apart under pressure, they can shoot clover leaf all day at the range but when it comes to taking the shot in the field they fold, buck fever what ever, the gun is always capable of expiring its game, as long as the shooter can place his bullet in the correct spot, always has been that way and alway will be that way. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

P.S. Jayco good link thanks.

[Geno]

I dont buy that. There are perfectly adaquate and perfectly inadaquate factory loads and reloads. If my reloads are inadaquate, I need to change what I'm doing and correct the problem. I can do that, I can accept that and all consequences. I dont have that same control with factory ammo. But, if you doubt your reloading abilities at all, by all means, get quality factory ammo and enjoy the peace of mind it will give you.

[Redhawk1]

I will always rely on my reloads. I have never had my bullets back out in my 454 casull. I am shooting some long 270 gr. cast bullets and they go flush to the end of the cylinder of my Redhawk 454 Casull. I have shot over 100 rounds like that and never have my bullets backed out. I use the Lee factory crimp and they hold great. Reloads for me please.

[jaycocreek]

I agree with you guys but it is hard to overlook these handgun experts.I use the crimp die but I am hesitent to appraoch max velocties in my .454.I bought some 300 CorBon bullets just to see the velocity at there load.And they load there .454 ammo to 60,000 PSI.

There must be some merit to what they are saying one would think.
We don't have kodiaks in Idaho so I don't care.  But I am curious from other handgun hunters.

Jayco.

[Ka6otm]

When I was living in Alaska and wandering through the bush, I only used handloads.

I've seen a lot more factory rounds that didn't go off than my handloads.

Plus, the only factory stuff I've seen that equals mine are those made by Buffalo Bore and Garrett...and they weren't in business at the time I was in Alaska.

But even today, I'd carry my own.  I trust mine more than I trust anyone else's.

Ka6otm

[safetysheriff]

I've been out where I could take a blackie, but never a Kodiak or griz'.   But I'd rather shoot my own loads, not loaded to the max' but to near max' than shoot a factory cartridge on dangerous game.     Dangerous game rifles are NOT loaded to the max' -- by those who know -- because of the potential for extraction problems with max' loads.    The same would apply to my handloads in a revolver going after dangerous game.    

I'd use sealer on loads for Alaska or any other wet/nasty climate, and then go out and drill one with my own lead.     What could be more satisfying?  

Remember, too, the factories have (all of 'em?) had recalls on ammo!

[myronman3]

i, too, will take my home brewed.   no one can convince me that factory is more reliable than mine are.  and if they would fail; i know who to blame.   these people's opinions; they wouldnt be writers endorsed by ammo manufacturers, would they?

[Duffy]

I have had more misfires with factory rounds than with my own and have probably fired 4000:1 handloads over factory. Also if I were to be going after something that could eat me  you can bet the left one that those handloads would be tested and handloaded with the most care that one could muster. Heck my deer loads in the 44 are loaded that way!   I have found the Redding profile crimp die to work exellent in the 44 & 454 also.

Ryan

[leverfan]

I've never had any kind of failure with a handload that I brewed up for hunting.  Some of my "experiments" at the range were less than what I hoped for, but they all worked.  I can't say the same for factory ammo, not by a long shot.  Not too long ago, I posted on another board in here about some Winchester ammo that was for self-defense, but it contained several squib loads.  I've had the opposite problem on two separate occasions with PMC ammo, the factory ammo was way too hot, and I won't buy either Winchester or PMC ammo again.

In any case, I've never shot any mammal with a factory load, and no self-proclaimed expert in the shooting press will get me to change.  I've read enough of their stuff to know that those boys make mistakes, too.  Experienced guides often have some very enlightening stories about gun writers and their abilities (or lack of abilities).  

On the flip side, I've seen some reloaders that shouldn't be allowed to bake a cake, let alone assemble a load for a firearm.  Guys that reload while drunk, put compressed loads of fast powder into a case because "my gun can handle it", and generally make a hazard of themselves at the shooting range.  I would rather have those sort of folks stick with factory loads, for their own safety, as well as the safety of others.

[Mikey]

Fellas:  just to add my two cents worth in that I reload for two reasons - first is that I can not obtain the quality of the handloads I put together from a commercial manufacturer (be they high end or low end velocity or pressure loads) and the second reason is for the economy of scale.  

I take extreme pains to assure that all my handloads are properly put together so that only a primer failure would cause a misfire, and that has not happened with any of my reloads but has happened with factory ammo, and always at the most embarrassing moment.

Going back to my first statement: Yes, I can purchase Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon or Garrett or someone else's product but I've no greater guarantees with those 'factory' loads than with anyone elses.  And, I loathe the notion of paying $40-50 for a box of 20 rounds of ammo.  My time may be worth more than that but my piece of mind and the confidence I have in my reloads is definitely worth the extra effort I put into my handloads.  Mikey.

[bowfishn]

The only misfires i have had over the years have been from Factory ammo. If my life depended upon it i would only trust the loads i put together, at any rate i would only have myself to blame if i had a mishap.
The only time i had bullets jump crimp on me was when i was load testing my 454 with 308 gr lead gc bullets with 35 grains of H110 powder.(that's a hot load in anyones book) After finishing the load testing it appeared that 31.5 grs of H110 produced the best grouping with .875" for all six rounds out of my SRH 454 9.5" at 25 meters. 4 of the shots were .375" center to center, 5 shots within .625 center to center. I use a factory crimper in a seperate operation to crimp and with the load that i found to be a tack driver i will have no problems.
When hunting any dangerous game anything can happen that is why you usually have back up with you, even when you are hunting with a rifle.

[oso45-70]

Gentlemen,
I'm going to have to say that mikey stole my thunder as i have been loading since 1948 and never had a bad load, If a person takes the time to do it rite there is no reason for a failure unless its a primer problem.
It just stands to reason that a assembley line is more apt to have a screw up than a man loading each shell individualy. If a proper crimp is put on a case and every thing else is done rite there should be no problem.
You all have a good day..............Joe...........................................

[stuffit]

I got my .454 Casull's from Freedom Arms around 1988 or there abouts, and did a lot of telephone consulting with a gentleman there name of Bob Baker who was developing loads for them at the time.  At the time the Hornady XTP's were just coming out, the earlier heavy Hornady jacketed bullets having a jacket too thin for them to recommend.  One problem with them was that when you loaded a max load of compressed H110 or Win 296, a portion of the bullet jacket in front of the case edge would expand to a degree that the bullet would not chamber.  This could be solved with a C & H cannelure tool by creating another cannelure, lower down on the bullet so that it could be seated further out of the case.  The XTP's that came out about that time also needed the extra cannelure for comfortable seating depth.  I think that feature of the bullets has since been corrected.  
     At any rate, I did experience occasional jumping of the crimp with these max compressed loads.  The Lee factory crimp die eliminated this undesirable and potentially disastrous occurrence, and also, I started loading with charges not requiring so much compression.  I don't think the whitetail hereabouts noticed the difference.  I did try one thing before I got the Lee die that led to a temporary impediment and I mention it only to point out the folly of it.   I knew that military rounds had a sealant-adhesive in the case necks, so it seemed logical that a drop of loctite on the bullet before seating would eliminate the crimp jump.  Well, not having the loctite, I used a tiny drop of an epoxy mix (elmer's, I think).   In firing the first five rounds all the crimps held solid.  But on ejecting the cases, the front of one of them (that had apparently tried to go out the cylinder with the bullet) stayed in the chamber.  No damage was done, but it required a trip to the gunsmith to remove that portion of the case stuck up in the chamber.   I reckon I ought not to tell that on myself, as it seems so darn dumb now, but it happened, I filed it under experience and went on.  All the crimps had to be broken and the bullets re seated and crimped.  I load all my Casull rounds sub max now and it  is, for me, just as effective.  Likely I would stick with my handloads for larger game, and find a more suitable sealant if there was a moisture problem in the area where I was hunting.

[bowfishn]

Well i sure learned something from your epoxy venture, that is Freedom Arms must make one tough handgun to withstand a compressed load of H-110 with a bullet epoxied in. I would have bet it would have blown the gun apart.
If nobody ever tried doing something stupid, we would not have the 454 to begin with. Sometime if you already haven't,  read about what John Linebaugh did when working up loads for the 45 colt in the developement of the 454 at  http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/Default.htm

Although i have never epoxied a bullet into its shell i have done my share of dumb things. :wink:

[stuffit]

Thanks for that interesting link.  I think it would be interesting to go back and actually measure the CUP's in the "sixgun" loads that Elmer Keith recommended.  I am an admirer and sort of disciple of his, and do realize that everyone was sort of flying by the seat of their pants back then, but I look at some of the loads he nonchalantly recommended and wonder sometimes.  
Thanks again for your response and the informative link.
 
stuffit

[S.S.]

If I have to load a Handgun round with enough power to hunt something that the other rounds in the Cylinder are going to Jump the crimp,
I am going to carry a rifle instead!!!
Lord fellas' what are you hunting for ..... Dinosaurs?
If a factory .454 won't kill it, I don't want to be in the woods
with it in the first place!!!

[stuffit]

S.Sumner
You have a point, but if put in context, the tendency to load up to max when the .454s were first acquired was the natural inclination of those of us who had been on hold a good while for a "souped up .45" ala Elmer Keith's .44 Special to .44 Mangum journey.  The .454 Casull was, so to speak. our prayers answered.  Most of us interested in big bore handguns had cut our teeth on Keith's writings, and had the same inclinations he did in loading up as far as we could push things.  It took most of us a while to realize that with the .454 Casull, this was just unnecessary for sufficient killing power and  that the little glitches associated with the hot loads could be easily avoided by loading down just a bit.  I know it took me a while to understand this, and I don't think I was by myself in the over exuberance of finally having a ".45 magnum".  I completely agree.  If standard Freedom Arms recommended hunting loads don't suffice to kill the "beast" then it might be best not to be in the area.  I continue to prefer my handloads, and, I assure you, they are, nowadays, completely adequate for the game I hunt, and definitely more conservative.  Comes with age, I reckon.
 
stuffit

[Lone Star]

Not all caliber factory loads are "sealed" at the neck, certainly none of any I've ever pulled have been, but then I never pulled a .454.    The use of epoxy may not be as dangerous as it sounds, since most epoxies are notably weak in shear, the force applied by a bullet trying to move in the neck.  Not a great idea, but better than some kinds of Loktite; some of these are very strong in shear strength.  A drop of lacquer is a much better idea if you just must seal your loads.  BTW, I hunted Alaska for 27 years with soaking wet ammo and never had a missfire.  A tight neck/bullet fit doesn't allow water to wick into the case....been there, never seen it.  Even my .22LR ammo was soaked and still fired.

Those who insist on max-loaded heavy bullets in revolvers are the ones whose reloads will likely cause problems.  Why - the powders they often use require high high loading densities and a firm crimp, but these bullets, having very high inertia, will "stay still" during recoil, with the case backing off them.  Once they are out a certain amount the powder density is too low and with no crimp.....pop.   :roll:

[jaycocreek]

I guess the point is CorBon loads all there ammo to 60,000 PSI including the 360 Penetrater and 335 Hard cast.How many of us can load to 60,000 PSI+ without bullet jump repeatedly?I am not knocking reloading but to here people that have shot and reloaded thousands of rounds for the 454 and suggest Factory ammo????Are we that good over those that have tried and tried to prove it wrong and still suggest it?


Who has more experience?  Just  question.

Jayco.

[bowfishn]

I highly doubt that CorBon is loading to 60,000 psi as their vel listed would say that they would not need to load to those pressures to get the speed they are getting, as well as most companies won't load to max ind standard to avoid law suits that might arise.
Corbon shows 1650 fps with a 300 grain jacketed bullet and that kind of speed can be reached without going to max, thus no bullet jumping the crimp.
Reloads of this speed or more can be reached without going much over 50,000 psi.
The bottom line is if you don't trust the ammo don't use it.

[MS Hitman]

I'll opt for the handloads (mine) for large or dangerous game.  Neck tension will get you better sealing than all the crimp in the world.  As far as loading .454s goes, I'll not push it to its full potential.  Backing off a few grains will give me just as effective a load as firewalling and not give me near the problems.  

I've been out amongst the elephant, lion, and cape buffs and will go again with my handloads first chance I get.

[Questor]

It's interesting to note that the guys who have written books about handgun hunting for dangerous game unanimously use handloads for that purpose.

[jaycocreek]

It's interesting to note that the guys who have written books about handgun hunting for dangerous game unanimously use handloads for that purpose.

1,000's of rounds later.I rather doubt there are many on this forum that could actually relate to there experienses and rounds thru the mighty .454 alone with testing in the early days of it.

Opinions-Everyone has one.Who has the most experience?Who would you listen too?

Just an opinion.......Jayco.

[jaycocreek]

I have to add that Bill aka Greybeard has more than one artical
 on the .454 and ammo and hasn't chimed in yet?

Wondering why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jayco.

[S.S.]

I have absolutely nothing against handloading for hunting,
But the reason I do it is simply for the gratification of taking game with my own rounds, and to work up the most accurate load for a particular
gun. The most powerful "Cartridge" handgun I own is a .44 Mag.
and it had never let me down. (I have several very large bore
muzzle loaders that I have not worked out actual muzzle energy on yet)
Nothing against bigger cartridge guns, I just like my Teeth where
god put them!