free floated vs. glass beded

[buckslayer]

whatch one's better??? glass bed boast a ''skin-tight fit'' while free foat boast no wood[or plastic] touching the barrel. there the complete oppesite of each other but it seems the most accurate guns are either free-floated or glas beded :?  :?  :? . seems a bit confusing to a dummie  :oops:  but i'm sure theres a simple answer.
~buckslayer :wink:

[Steelhead]

It all depends...........how is that for an answer. I have some that are free floated, some full length bedded (with about zero pressure on the barrel), and some with 2 point bedding (in front of reciever and towards the end of the forend). I usually always start with the barrel being full length bedded and then work from there. There are WAY to many variables to say one is better then the other.

[Mikey]

buckslayer:  I free float my barrels from the chamber forward and glass bed the action.  This has worked very well for me in sporterized mil-surps as well as commercial sporters.  Whatcha want is an action that sits rock solid in the stock and a barrel that is not impacted or effected by any pressure spots.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Steelhead]

a barrel that is not impacted or effected by any pressure spots

...............not always.

[jvs]

whatch one's better??? glass bed boast a ''skin-tight fit'' while free foat boast no wood[or plastic] touching the barrel. there the complete oppesite of each other but it seems the most accurate guns are either free-floated or glas beded :?  :?  :? . seems a bit confusing to a dummie  :oops:  but i'm sure theres a simple answer.

IMO, the barrel should be free-floated but the receiver block should be glass bedded to the stock.  If a dollar bill easily slips under the barrel all the way to the mounting screw, which is glass bedded, then things should be ok.    Things change with different rifles, but sliding a dollar bill under the barrel can tell a story.

[Coyote Hunter]

buckslayer -

None of my bolt guns are glass bedded, but all are free floated.   I know each gun is different, but I get more than adequate accuracy without bedding.

When I got my first centerfire rifle, I discovered I couldn't zero it.  As the barrel warmed up, so did the wood that was touching it at the foretip of the stock.  The heat expanded the wood, causing it to push the barrel up and to the left.  Group centers followed the barrel movement.  When I got home I free floated the barrel and 100 yard group sizes settled in at .5".  Since then I free floated every bolt gun before taking it to the range.  Here are the results:

M77 Ruger 7mm Rem Mag, 0.5" @ 100 yards, 3 shots
M77 Ruger .257 Roberts, 0.95" @ 200 yards, 3 of 4 shots (1.85" overall)
M77 MKII .22-250 VT, 0.5" @ 200 yards, 4 shots
Savage 110E .22-250, 0.25" @ 100 yards, 4 shots (before the barrel hit end-of-life)

Bedding might have helped all of these, but I fail to see the need for my purposes.  The reason to bed, as I see it, is two-fold.  Bed the action to ensure good mechanical connection between the action and the stock.  Bed the barrel, or parts of it, to reduce barrel vibrations - ideally with a material that won't expand as it heats up.

[crazyjjk]

Free floating a barrel does not always shrink group size. Sometimes a barrel will shoot better with a "consistent" pressure point. What free floating a barrel does is keep the "point of impact" more consistent over time. This is because over time things like moisture, heat, cold, even were you hold your hand on the forend or rest the forend on a rest can put different amounts of pressure on the rifle barrel effecting point of impact. So if you call accuracy having the rifle shoot in the same place every time you use it than yes a free floated barrel is most consistent, but if you want smallest group size some rifles shoot better with a "tuner" pressure point.  :shock:

[Zachary]

I understand that Weatherbys use a pressure point system, while most other bolt-action rifles can be glass bedded and free floated.

Whenever I customize any of my rifles, I have the action both glass bedded and pillar bedded.  This ensures that the action will not move even the slightest bit when it is fired.  In this manner, there is more consistency in groups.

As for the barrels, I have them free floated, not glass bedded all the way to the end of the stock.  

Zachary

[jvs]

Whenever I customize any of my rifles, I have the action both glass bedded and pillar bedded.  This ensures that the action will not move even the slightest bit when it is fired.  In this manner, there is more consistency in groups.
Zachary

Zach,

My understanding of it is that movement isn't as much of a concern as harmonics are.  Wood and Metal at different thicknesses vibrate at different wave lengths, which has an effect on a bullet as it travels down the barrel if they vibrate against each other.  Sort of like two tuning forks coming in contact.  

The 2 extremes is either have the barrel free-floated or bedded all the way to the muzzle.  Either one cuts down on harmonics.   Alot of the older War firearms had totally wood encased barrels to cut down on the harmonics.

If you ever swung a bat, either wood or aluminum. and didn't have a tight grip, you know what harmonics is.  That is basically what your rifle goes thru each time it is fired, only with a combination of the different composites together.

[Zachary]

I agree with the element of harmonics being into play.  However, I have similarly found that, at least in my rifles, when I glass and pillar bed the action, and free float the barrel, accuarcy is much better.  

For example, I have a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless in .375H&H Mag.  Before I had the work done, it would shoot 1" groups at 100 yards.  After the work was done, it would shoot, believe it or not 1/8" groups!! :eek:   Yup, you heard me right, 1/8" groups - almost in the same hole!

Now, you may say that the .375H&H is a hard kicking rifle and, as such, movement plays a more significant role than a lighter kicking rifle.

Okay, then let me tell you about a lighter kicking rifle.

I have a Remington M700 SS in .30-06 with an HS Precision stock.  Before the work, it would shoot 1MOA.  After the work, it would shoot 1/2" groups!  That's twice better.

On a Remington M700 VS SF in .308, before the work, it would similarly shoot about 1 MOA.  After the work, it would similary shoot about 1/2" as well!  Again, that's twice better.

I can go on and on about my exeprience with customizing my rifles.  Yes, I agree with the harmonizing issue, but, again - at least in my rifle, which should be the same in most other people's rifles, the above mentioned work has yielded much better accuracy.

The only way, I think, that you can actually control, or fix, the problem of the harmonizing, is get a B.O.S.S.  I have one on a .300 Win Mag - what a great concept!

If I have it set, say, on a certain number, it might shoot 2" groups.  Yet, put it on another number, and it will shoot HALF INCH GROUPS!  Wow! :eek:   Now, I would still get the above work done because, even if you barrel finds the right bullet to shoot such small groups, you still need a sturdy platform from which to shoot.  If the action on my .300 starts to move around after a while because of the recoil, then my half inch groups will not be consistent.

Zachary

[oldelkhunter]

Whether it should be floated or pressure pointed really has to do with barrel contours. With some of the cheap synthetics out there it is almost impossible to bed the stock correctly to dampen a barrel. On the other hand every single NULA rifle is bedded thru the foreend  and no one can dispute their accuracy. I have a Sako 75 SS that is freefloated from the recoil lug forward  and it shoots extremely well. On the other hand I would hate to think what would happen if  frozen precipitation of some sort would get underneath the barrel or lets even say regular forest rubble like pine needles or leaves. When I  buy Remingtons or any pressure tip bedded gun I leave the pressure point in place and bed the action .  If the gun isn't tip bedded I will then bed the barrel shank and action and make sure the rest floats. Sakos and Brownings I leave alone. I guess what I mean is that each Rifle is a separate entity and no 2 respond the same.

[jvs]

I never meant to imply that sloppy movement isn't a problem but I have never had a rifle from the factory that wiggled between the metal and wood parts.    I did have a Marlin .22 bolt action that eventually started getting sloppy around the forearm after over 25 yrs of hard service.  I have done more work to that piece than any of my other hunting pieces, but only because it is a workhorse.

I think that unless it was made to be a Manleicher or has barrel bands, there may be such a thing as "too tight" when it comes to fit between wood and metal.

The way I see it, if it doesn't harmonize as one solid object, it's 'out of tune'.   Kind of like the way I sing.

[Coyote Hunter]

Free floating a barrel does not always shrink group size. Sometimes a barrel will shoot better with a "consistent" pressure point. What free floating a barrel does is keep the "point of impact" more consistent over time. This is because over time things like moisture, heat, cold, even were you hold your hand on the forend or rest the forend on a rest can put different amounts of pressure on the rifle barrel effecting point of impact. So if you call accuracy having the rifle shoot in the same place every time you use it than yes a free floated barrel is most consistent, but if you want smallest group size some rifles shoot better with a "tuner" pressure point.  :shock:

No shock there, as you are correct.

You mention heat and cold.  Every year I go to the shooting range before hunting season to check the zero of my rifles and practice shooting (lots of that).  This is usually done when the temps are nice, up in the 50's to 80's.  A few weeks or days later I go up in the mountains where temps may be below zero for extended periods of time.  But my rifles still shoot.  Nor do I worry about moisture swelling the wood after spending the day in a drizzle.

Works for me, not for all.

[crazyjjk]

Coyote Hunter, It is amazing how much little things like temp and moisture will change the point of impact of a rifle. I've seen people sight in their rifles in 70 plus degree weather before the season then they find that in the colder dryer hunting season weather their rifle isn't shooting anywhere near where the sighted it in because the forend of the rifle is pushing on the barrel differently. I just free-float all my barrels and never seem to have a problem with POI changes.  

PS: I see you are a big fan of the 257 Roberts. It is a truly underrated caliber which is easy on the shoulder and great on deer and anything smaller. Thats my go for gun when I head out the door for deer or anything smaller.

[Coyote Hunter]

...

PS: I see you are a big fan of the 257 Roberts. It is a truly underrated caliber which is easy on the shoulder and great on deer and anything smaller. ...

Yup, kind of happened by accident, but glad it did.  I run +P loads and get near .25-06 performance.  The Ruger with its 22" barrel is a sweet shooter -- can't wait to try it out this fall on live game (antelope and/or mule deer).

[paperpuncher]

Just about all of the bench rest shooters use pillar-bedded actions and free floating barrels - also, most use synthetic stocks. My experience has also been that free-floating the barrel back to within a few inches of the receiver results in the best accuracy. This works especially well on heavy barrel varmint/target rifles.

Also - Hooray for the .257 Roberts. I had one built on an FN Mauser action back in '54. Still have that rifle and it still shoots a 75 gr Sierra under a MOA. It's my all time favorite cartridge.

[oldelkhunter]

For bench rest use free floating is fine..look at the diameter of the barrel your not going to have a lot of barrel whip. Unfortunately for hunting with some of the clearances I have seen on fully free floated barrels frozen rain or debris can get in there and change your point of impact.

[Zachary]

I guess it makes good common sense that debris and frozen rain can get in there are change the POI, but, from my practical hunting experience, I honestly have never had any such problems.  Then again, I usually hunt in regions where I rarely encounter frozen rain (sleet, snow, etc.), but still, I have never had any problems with debris getting in there and affecting my shot.

Zachary

[RaySendero]

I prefer free floating a heavy "bull" barrel rifle with the action aluminum pillow block beded.

On a lighter contour barrel you need to experiment if you want to find the BEST accuracy.  I would suggest the following steps:
1) Glass bed the action - Free float the barrel.
2) Try point supporting the barrel out toward end of stock.
3) Might try two point support
4) Last if not satisfied with either of the above glass bed the barrel.