Author Topic: Small caliber rifle suggestions wanted (Read 2741 times)

bigjeepman · « **Reply #30 on:** May 30, 2004, 06:35:18 AM »

Atomic Chicken ... (where did that name come from?) ...

I have been following this post from the beginning with much interest as I went through the same scenario about 1 year ago. I asked the same kind of questions on my favorite forums and got many excellent opinions/suggestions as you have received. In the end, I chose the Ruger M77 Mark II in .243 with a Sightron II 4-16x42 Mildot scope to top it off.

The only thing I would change after one year is I would go with a Bushnell 4200 Elite as they are so much clearer than the Sightrons. I like the Sightrons as I still have two but when I looked through an Elite on a rainy day at my favorite gunshop, it was so much better.

As far as my Ruger rifle, I shot maybe 30 rounds through it before I knew it could do better than the .75" groups I was getting. The trigger came to me at about 5.5 lbs. I had a gunsmith put in a Timney trigger set at 2.5 lbs, true the crown, and lap the lugs. He told me to try it for a while as he didn't think it needed any bedding work. Within the next week, I shot the best 3 shot group I have ever shot ( .147") and with factory 70gr Federal Nosler ballistic tips. I reload now, shoot 5 shot groups, and regularly group .500" with three different bullets. My rifle likes 65gr, 70gr, and 80gr bullets best but I have never tried and bullets above 80gr. It does not group the lighter bullets well but I do not care.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you and good shooting.

Atomic Chicken · « **Reply #31 on:** May 30, 2004, 12:33:27 PM »

Quote from: bigjeepman

I have been following this post from the beginning with much interest as I went through the same scenario about 1 year ago. .......... In the end, I chose the Ruger M77 Mark II in .243 with a Sightron II 4-16x42 Mildot scope to top it off.

The only thing I would change after one year is I would go with a Bushnell 4200 Elite as they are so much clearer than the Sightrons. .......

Greetings!

Interesting that you started out with the same requirements and ended up with the same caliber and rifle that I am currently considering. Even the same brand of scope, if you could do it all over again! This makes me think I might be on the right track....

Quick question - what is your opinion on the fixed vs. variable scope dilema? Do you think the fixed is really any more reliable than a variable?

Best wishes,
Bawko

bigjeepman · « **Reply #32 on:** May 30, 2004, 02:51:42 PM »

A.C. ....

I cannot give an opinion on fixed scopes as I have never owned one. I am sure there are situations where a fixed scope might be an advantage over a variable ... I just have never run into one. The point you made about the weight difference might be a factor if you carry a lot. I usually carry my scopes set at 6x until I setup. I then have a pretty good idea at what distance my shot might be and only then do I adjust the power... sometimes down and sometimes up.

I have been looking at the new Ruger .204 caliber in the same rifle as I now feel the need (or whatever anyone wants to call it) for a .20 caliber.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #33 on:** May 30, 2004, 04:58:57 PM »

Quote from: Atomic Chicken

...Do you think that I am on the wrong track in considering a fixed power scope for reasons of reliability? Perhaps I'm going overboard here in trying to construct the most rugged (yet also lightweight) rifle possible... maybe the rifle would be just as reliable with a variable power scope? ...

A.C. -

When I bought my first centerfire 20+ years ago, I bought a Ruger with iron sights, then topped it off with a scope. The rationale was that if the scope broke I would remove it and hunt iron sights. This was the same scope I used to break two ribs after falling off the mule. The cheap Bushnell held up fine. Some 20 years later I mounted it on my Marlin .45-70 and one of the internal lenses chipped, causing a blurry picture in the very upper left quadrant. Accuracy was still fine but I replaced the scope. With this particular breakage, it wouldn't have mattered if the scope was fixed or variable.

Both my Marlins have Quick Detach scope rings, in part so I can remove the scopes to hunt heavy timber and in part in case the scopes break. Both scopes are Leupold, one a used M8-4x and the other a 2-7x33. Never had one break - in fact other than the Bushnell, none of my other scopes have broken.

So, for myself, I don't worry too much about breakage these days. I worry more about light transmission, image clarity and other factors.

If you have experience with a 10x and it works for you, go for it. My preference in a fixed is the 4x to 6x range - they work well at close range and I'll never shoot big game at ranges where that isn't adequate. Generally, though, I like the variables and keep them on 4-4.5x, even on my varminting rifle. When I want higher magnification I find I always have time to crank them up.

As to Mil-dot reticles, I wish my scopes had them.

Atomic Chicken · « **Reply #34 on:** May 30, 2004, 11:32:25 PM »

Another update....

Given everything that has been posted so far on this forum, combined with my own research and handling of the rifles I'm considering at a local gun shop, my current selections have been narrowed down to the following:

Rifle: Ruger Model 77 MKII All Weather Stainless/Synthetic (KM77RFP)
Caliber: .243 Winchester
Scope: Bushnell Elite 3200 fixed 10X with Mil-Dot reticle

Total cost should be around $650.

I am pretty certain that this will result in a lightweight (should be around 8lb loaded), extremely rugged backwoods gun that will be practically impervious to bad weather and a reasonable degree of abuse. Should be great for varmint hunting up to 300 or 400 yards, deer up to 200 yards, and might even do quite well at the target bench if what I've been reading about Ruger 77 accuracy is correct!

I plan on having the trigger pull either lightened or the trigger assembly replaced with a Timney, and I'll probably get the barrel re-crowned with an 11 Deg. target crown while it's in the shop. I'll float the barrel myself if that is required, but I'll definitely do a bit of shooting first to see how accurate it is "out of the box" :-)

I'll be buying this setup and assembling it on Wed. or Thurs. of this week, so if anyone has suggestions or comments on what equipment might be better for my purposes, please post before then!

Again, thanks for all the great suggestions and observations - this forum is GREAT!!!!

Best wishes,
Bawko

bigjeepman · « **Reply #35 on:** May 31, 2004, 02:20:33 AM »

Atomic Chicken ...

Sure sounds like you are going to have one great week. Keep us posted on your progress. I have read on several forums where the Ruger rifles are considered by many to be a "hit or miss" when it comes to getting an accurate rifle. This rifle just felt right to me when I first picked it up and it is everything I hoped it would be. My brother has the same setup in 7mm and it is a shooter too. He doesn't reload and won't buy the dies for me to reload it for him because it shoots approximately .750" groups with Remington Core-lokts and that is good enough for him.

Zachary · « **Reply #36 on:** May 31, 2004, 07:16:51 AM »

My only concern is that a fixed 10x is way too high for deer at closer ranges. You just can't go wrong with a variable.

I would take the 10x off of your list - AND QUICK!

There are many other Elite 3200 models available, perhaps not with the Mil-Dot, but they are there. A standard 3x-9x or even 4x-12x would be a much better choice than a fixed 10x.

Zachary

Atomic Chicken · « **Reply #37 on:** June 03, 2004, 12:20:22 AM »

Greetings again!

Well... it's done. I went to a local gun shop today and purchased the Ruger 77 MKII all-weather model in .243 Win, and the 10X fixed-power Bushnell mil-dot Elite 3200 scope to top it off.

I also picked up 6 boxes of differently loaded factory cartridges (I'll need the brass for reloading, and I'm curious how it will shoot different types of factory loads anyway) and a quick-adjust nylon sling to go with it.

After I got home, I mounted the scope to the rifle and tightened all the ring screws. The Ruger ring system is truly RUGGED in every sense of the word - I love it already!!!! I grow more and more convinced that for rugged use, the Ruger is the right rifle to buy!

I removed the bolt (in case of any questions from neighbors or law enforcement), then took it out to the back yard this evening after most people in the neighborhood were already inside, and "scoped out" the terrain. I looked at deer-sized and smaller targets at various distances, and was actually surprised at how wide my field of view was at closer ranges considering that I had a 10X fixed power scope mounted to the rifle. I don't think I am going to have a problem with the scope being "too powerful" at short range at all - but my previous experience with my .308 with Leupold 3.5-10X (which I keep almost permanently set to 10X) has pretty much told me that already.

I am enjoying how light weight and maneuverable this setup is already - it's like a breath of fresh air after lugging my 12 Lb+ rigs around for years. I think I'm going to like this rifle a LOT!!!!!

Can't wait to sight it in and do a bit of shooting... I'll keep everyone informed!

Best wishes,
Bawko

Big Paulie · « **Reply #38 on:** June 03, 2004, 05:18:28 AM »

Dear Atomic Chicken,

A few additional thoughts:

1. I don't know whether or not you have finally ruled out the .260 Remington. However, if you are still considering it, then you may want to look at the posting called "Fate of the .260 Remington" that is listed under the Category called "Medium Bore Rifles." I was very interested in the .260 Remington, but have come to learn that despite its great ballistics and good reviews, it is a commercial flop. Browning has dropped the round from its A-Bolts this year, and I think that only Remington (700 BDL only) and one other maker still make rifles in this caliber. In a few years, it may be very difficult (or impossible) to find factory ammo for this round, and so you will have to count on saving brass and handloading. Apparently, it was just too close in performance to the 6.5 Swede to gain in popularity (even though it comes in factory loaded 120 grain bullets.)

2. You are smart to delete the 7mm-08. It is a great round, but it is just too close in performance to your .308 Winchester to give you anything new in your battery. There is not 5% difference between these two rounds.

3. It sounds like the .243 Winchester, with 100 grain nosler partitions, will fit your bill nicely. However, perhaps, what would fit your bill better is the brand new 6.8mm Remington. Do some research on this new cartridge. (There are articles on line.) It gives you exactly the same foot pounds of energy as the .243 in 100 grain, but it does it with a .27 caliber 115 grain bullet, and with the trajectory of the .308 Winchester. You get a heavier bullet, and a much better ballistic coefficient. (In other words, a better round for deer.) This round has been invented for the U.S. special forces, to replace the 5.56mm (.223 Remington) as the standard rifle round. It has been field tested in both Irag, and in mule deer hunting, with great success. It is currently available in three factory loads by Remington. Remington will be unveiling bolt action rifles in this caliber very soon. I predict it will be a huge success.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

Big Paulie · « **Reply #39 on:** June 03, 2004, 10:05:32 AM »

Ooooops, sorry, I didn't see the last prior post from Atomic Chicken saying that he had bought his rifle. As for my prior post, . . . never mind.

Big Paulie

Gregory · « **Reply #40 on:** June 03, 2004, 11:59:53 AM »

Put a Timney trigger on that Ruger and you'll reallly like it. I would have gone with a 3.5-10X scope but hey it's your gun.
Enjoy. Let us know how it groups.

jdt48653 · « **Reply #41 on:** June 03, 2004, 02:37:24 PM »

or go and get a 264 win mag,and you can take out everything from a chipmunk to a moose,up to 500 yds!

Atomic Chicken · « **Reply #42 on:** June 04, 2004, 12:21:58 AM »

Greetings again!

Still haven't been to the range with my new machine - my work has kept me too busy. Tomorrow!!! Man, am I excited!

OK... This is a reply to the suggestions I've been receiving since my "I bought it" post.

jdt48653 - Sorry, but I'm really NOT interested in a magnum cartridge. I already have the "large game" end of things covered with other rifles, this rifle's entire purpose in life is a backwoods thrasher gun in a small, easy to shoot caliber for varmint at medium-long range and deer at close range. I'm putting together a "fun gun" for hiking and wilderness shooting, not a "kill everything on the planet from sandbags" gun.

Gregory - I already plan on putting a Timney trigger on the rifle, the Ruger trigger SUCKS @$$. I've never seen a trigger so poorly designed in my life - how Ruger thinks this trigger is even REMOTELY acceptable is beyond me. As for the scope, I debated long and hard and posted 2 messages on this board trying to get opinions before buying the 10X. I would have actually preferred a fixed power 6X or 8X, but nobody sells one with a mil-dot reticle (which I find FAR too useful to give up). My only other option is something like a Leupold 3.5-10X tactical like I have on my Remington 700 VS, and that is (a) too delicate, and (b) too nice and expensive to put on a "beater" rifle for backwoods thrashing. In any case, I have found through the years that I keep my Leupold on 10X almost constantly anyway, even at closer range (down to 50 yd., which is the shortest distance I plan on shooting with this rifle anyway).

Big Paulie - Thanks for the great comments and suggestions. I also decided that the .260 Remington, while an almost perfect cartridge for my purposes, was probably nearing obsolescence and would better serve me in a later gun purchased at a later time. I want this gun to be an all-around handy backwoods gun that I can buy ammo at any hardware store in a pinch. I still like the .260 Remington idea a LOT, and will probably buy a Tikka in that caliber in the next year or so. One last thing - I was not aware of the new 6.8mm Remington cartridge. It sounds quite interesting, but it also sounds too new for my purposes. Maybe in a few years I'll look seriously at this cartridge - after it has been around long enough to evaluate properly.

Best wishes everyone, I'll post my accuracy results sometime Saturday!
Bawko

Atomic Chicken · « **Reply #43 on:** June 04, 2004, 02:17:09 PM »

Greetings!

The test results are in! After getting the rifle to hit paper (2nd shot fired), I obtained these results (All tests were 3-shot groups except third 55 Gr.):

Hornady 55 Gr. V-Max Moly Coated:

First Group - 0.95", 2 bullets through the same hole, 1 flyer
Second Group - 0.65" - even spread
Third Group (5 Shots) - 1.05" - even spread

Federal 85 Gr. Sierra GameKing HPBT:

First Group - 1.00" - even spread
Second Group - 1.10" - even spread
Third Group - 0.90" - elongated spread

Federal 100 Gr. Nosler Partition:

First Group - 1.70" - elongated spread
Second Group - 1.35" - elongated spread

These results, in my opinion, tell me that this will be a FINE rifle once I do a bit of work on it. Keep in mind this shooting was done with the FULL WEIGHT lame-o-matic(TM) Ruger factory trigger, with an out of the box gun that has had NO work done to it other than mounting the scope and rings. I am debating whether or not to have the barrel crown re-done, I think I'll do the trigger then do some more test shooting to see if it even needs any barrel work!

The rifle seems to like the lighter weight bullets best, it didn't do very well with the 100 Gr. loads. However, this doesn't concern me too much - I've heard the 85 Gr. are excellent deer rounds from several people posting to this forum. I am very pleased with the lower weight bullet results, I can't wait to try it again after installing a Timney trigger.

Damn... I'm pleased. This is one of the best stock rifles I have ever shot straight out of the box!

Best wishes,
Bawko

flintlock · « **Reply #44 on:** June 04, 2004, 03:15:10 PM »

Atomic....I'm proud of ya!!! Anytime you can take a factory rifle to the range the first time, and get it to group under 1 1/2 inches, with factory ammo...you are doing well....Now...I know you are getting a trigger job...and that's good....Just wanted to mention something else that you might want to try....I believe you are also thinking about free floating the barrel, bedding action...etc....I also have this done on my Ruger....but...I fixed one guys gun by adding stock pressure to the barrel....I just took a shotgun shell that had been fired....cut out a section 3/4 inch long...and then cut this in half....so it would fit under the barrel....then...loosened stock screws...and slid between the stock and barrel...this changes the harmonics of the barrel...like a BOSS...or..makes the barrel stiffer....on your laminated stocked gun there should be minimal warpage so once you sight in, it shouldn't change....his hasn't...and this might help your groups a little....it cut this guys group in half....it doesn't cost much to try this out....and you may see that you don't need to free float the barrel....

Also...I promise, those 85gr Federals will work on a whitetail...but my Ruger also doesn't care for the Federal Partitions...that doesn't mean that it won't shoot some of the others....my gun loves Winchester Power Points...in both Supreme and Regular loadings...but they don't give as much penetration as the 85 gr....It does very well with Core Lokts, and the Federal 100gr Sierra BTSP....fortunately the 100 gr loads shoot about 1 to 1 1/2 inches lower than the 85gr....so if I needed to...I could use these in the woods....Good Luck...flintlock

Gregory · « **Reply #45 on:** June 05, 2004, 11:35:52 AM »

AC
Sounds like you've got a shooter there. Good luck with it. Thanks for posting your results.

bigjeepman · « **Reply #46 on:** June 06, 2004, 02:20:15 AM »

A.C. ....

Sounds like you're on your way to having a great shooter there. I went to the range late yesterday afternoon. This trip was unplanned but the conditions were almost perfect and I couldn't resist. During last night's session, I worked on my Nosler 70gr ballistic tips loads. I have been using 41gr of Varget most of the time at approximately 3547fps and last night I averaged .695" with this load. Most recently, I have been trying 40gr of H380 at much less velocity (3160fps) and last night I averaged .536" with this load. Today I will probably be working on Sierra 60gr HP or Hornady 65gr VMAX as I am out of the 70gr Noslers.

My point to this info is that my .243 Ruger has grouped more than several combinations under .500". So after you find that ideal load for whitetail, you might want to find some lighter bullets that will group well in case you want to down a few varmits or predators. It shouldn't be too much of a problem with your rifle from the way it is shooting already. Check the crown out though as I mine certainly needed work.

Jboscobuys · « **Reply #47 on:** June 12, 2004, 08:56:34 PM »

Atomic Chicken...

Man... I wish you would have gone out and tested one of the Tikkas before just making up your mind. I actually sat in the store for over an hour trying to make up my mind for my best friend, between the .243 Ruger M77 and the Tikka T3 Lite .243.

The problem is that I thought the Tikka action and trigger felt cleaner than the Ruger's, however, the Lite stature of the gun itself had me worried a little about accuracy (perhaps the tradeoff for light weight) once we got it to the range.

I finally leaned towards the Tikka and my friend bought it. I was crossing my fingers that it wouldn't be a decision I would learn to regret. However, once at the range, using factory Winchester 80gr. SP's, the gun shot simply amazing.... I mean to tell you..... I have owned a lot of guns... and not even my free floated, glassed bedded, and trigger jobbed Remington BDL .270 shot as tight. I literally sat there at the range with my jaw at my feet.

NOW... IT"S BEEN 6 DAYS... AND I BOUGHT ONE FOR MYSELF!!! TOUGH AS HELL TO FIND (as the store sold him the last .243 Tikka they had)... AND I WASN"T EVEN IN THE MARKET FOR A GUN. I WAS THAT IMPRESSED.

I think the Tikka's are going to take America by storm.... I just honestly have never... and I mean NEVER had a gun that shot that accurately right out of the box... not for SUB $500 range.

I think you can't got wrong with the M77.... I have owned one of these in the 30-06 and it was a damn fine gun. I however, will be a believer in Tikka if my .243 holds a candle to my friends.

Getting my scope shipped out Monday... so I should know the following Monday. Will post a reply here (GOOD OR BAD).

Atomic Chicken · « **Reply #48 on:** July 25, 2004, 01:15:22 AM »

Jboscobuys,

Did you mount your scope and test your Tikka yet? How does it shoot?

I still plan on buying a Tikka later this year in .260 Remington.... I like the Tikka rifle a lot, it just didn't seem as rugged as the M77, and ruggedness and small caliber were my main two requirements for this rifle...

Best wishes,
Bawko

7magWoodsman · « **Reply #49 on:** July 25, 2004, 08:24:18 PM »

I have a Ruger M77 7mm Rem. Mag. and it shoots great as well. I have no doubts you will be satisfied with the rifle.
I noticed you said you were planning on buying a 260 Rem later on...If you ever do get a 260 you will never go back to another caliber for general use...I prefer my 7 mag but its just an aquired thing. Tikka is a great gun but my opinion is that you can not beat the "Rs" Remington and Ruger. The 700 Mountain Rifle or the model 7SS are both chambered in 260...264. win mag is a great choice too. Hope you enjoy your M77 .243 for many many years.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #50 on:** July 26, 2004, 03:46:01 AM »

25-06 or 257 weatherby mag seems to fit the bill. I know Ruger offers the 25-06 in the all weather version your looking for. Not sure about the weatherby.

The 243 gets a bit light for my likin at 300 yards.