What is average accuracy?

[longwinters]

A response by Zachery, in another post,  prompted a question in my small mind.  What is, in YOUR experience, the average accuracy for an out of the box rifle.  This is with your first attempt with factory ammo or reloads. Before trigger jobs, barrel work, forend work etc... at 100 yds.  For me, mostly because of factory ammo or my working up reloads, it is about 2". After some tweeking on the ammo end I end up at MOA.  Only one rifle out of probably 10 have I HAD to do anything to the rifle itself to get smaller groups.  This would include Remington, Winchester, Weatherby, Sako and Tikka manufacture.  The only one I had to do other things to was my Thompson Center.

long

[gunnut69]

I've been fooling with rifles of various types for nearly 40 years.  The worst I've experienced from a factory rifle was in the 4-5 inch catagory.  There were actually 2 of them.  Marlin 336's in 30-30 that I sighted in for friends, their fathers pre war M94 on the other hand was simply scary..  It would easily shoot 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards using the factory open sights.  It was one of those rifles that just felt right...  The best shooting rifle I've found, with factory ammo was a M700 I bought new in the mid-70's in caliber 243 win.  Brass wasn't available locally so I bought 5 boxes of ammo (remington) to shoot for the brass..  The 100 grains load would put 3 shots under a 1/4 inch consistantly at 100 yards, and off a car hood to boot.  I never could duplicate that with any handload but did limit my handloading efforts to Noslers partition offerings..  The rifle seemed to like the hottest loads one could use with any safety...  Unfortunately is was among those stolen from my home..

[longwinters]

So Gunnut, what would you say is the "average accuracy" you have found in all of the rifles you have shot?  

long

[Zachary]

I guess that I must be the luckiest person on the face of this earth, because out of all of my rifles (and I own about 20 of them) I would say that my average accuracy is about 1MOA.  

I own Brownings, Remingtons, Tikkas, Sakos, Winchesters (and I think that's it for now).  Most of them are factory, but some of them are customized.  Still, I use premium factory ammo, and they all shoot average around 1 MOA.

I can't remember when was the last time that any of my rifles shot anything past 1.5", and that was probably because I flinched on a windy day.

Zachary

[Big Paulie]

OK guys, I don't reload.  I use rifles straight out of the box.

When someone asks about average accuracy, are they also including factory carbines?  This makes a big difference.

With full length rifles, with a scope, I would have to honestly say that average accuracy is somewhere between 1.5 inches and 1.75 inches.  The worse I ever saw was my wife's brand new Rem. 700 Classic, in .257 Roberts, with a 26 inch barrel, that would only shoot 2.5 inch groups.  Since she never shot deer past 200 yards, she just didn't care.

With carbines, however, including Marlins and Winchesters,  I would say that average accuracy out of the box is between 2.5 and 3.0 inches (with scope).  I have heard alot about people only getting 4.0 inch groups from lever actions, but I never actually saw one shoot that bad.  

Just my experiences.

Big Paulie

[Coyote Hunter]

.5” @ 200 yards, 4 shots – Ruger M77 MKII VT .22-250
.5” @ 100 yards, 3 shots – Ruger M77 7mm Rem Mag
.95” @ 200 yards, 3 of 4 shots (1.85” overall) - Ruger M77 .257 Roberts

2” @ 100 yards, 18 shots – Marlin 375
0.65” @ 100 yards, 3 of 4 shots (1.04” overall) – Marlin 1895

[Lawdog]

I see no reason or excuse for a new bolt action rifle, out of the box with a scope to shoot over two inches.  Not with today’s technology.  To me average accuracy is 1.5 but not over 2 inches out of the box before any tweaking/load developing is done.  Anything over 2 inches isn’t a group but more of a shotgun pattern.  A 2 inch rifle you can work with but a 4 inch rifle isn’t worth the time or money you will end up putting into it.  An inaccurate rifle is a headache that no amount of aspirin can cure.  Small groups and tight lines to all.  Lawdog
 

[Zachary]

I totally agree.  I sometimes hear of a new gun grouping over 3 inches and I think it's a defect.  Conversely, I hear of people getting groups of 1 MOA and their saying how they found a gem :?   A gem?  With today's technology, they all should shoot like that.

Zachary

[Judson]

A rifle will only shoot as well as the shooter can see.   With open sights at 100 yards do not expect too much, most rifles will or can out shoot the shooter.   Ammo is the next problem unless you hand load or use something like Federal Premium ammo you are not giving the gun a fair chance.    Taking the time to work up a load I have seen few bolt guns that will not shoot 1" or less.    Lever guns not so good with the average being around 1.5" with factory ammo, Win 94s come in with a  rather poor 2" to 2.5" but again here ammo comes into play.   For example, factory     30-30 ammo is not loaded to match standards.    Pump rifles fall into the 1"to 2' class with autos bringing up the rear with stuff like the M1A and the BAR being the exception to the rule by far the worst is the Remington autos which I have seen as bad as 4" groups and rarely as good as 1.25"     Oh yes the single shots.    Well here my experience is limited.   H&R 1.5" average, custom Mauser in .30/378 with hand loads .418 extreme spread.    Ruger # 1, around 1" or better, again with hand loads.    
   Most of the rifles I have worked with had good, usually Leupold scopes of 3X9 or higher power and this helps.    That 30/378 carries a 6X20  and like I said you can shoot only as well as you can see so when checking the accuracy of a rifle you have to keep that in mind.    Hope I have been of some help

[jvs]

Industry Standards seem to be somewhere around 1 1/2 to 2 inches for a new rifle, out of the box.

I have heard of people complaining to Remington, Winchester etc when they find out that their new rifle won't shoot tight groups.  A call to any of the Customer Service Departments gets the same reply.

Not only that, but any tweeking to the innerds of a firearm unless such tweeking is part of the design, voids the warranty.  Trigger jobs for example.  Marlin is notorious for voiding warranties on firearms which were tweeked, unless it was done at their factory.   They do have a good customer service department, if you want to spend the time and money.  

Sometimes it amazes me that most of the major manufacturers are too cheap to make sure the stock isn't rubbing anywhere and apply a little squirt of bedding on the forearm when the rifle is assembled.  Although Savage is in the process of changing that practice, and doing a good job from what I hear.

[Big Tom]

I would have to concur with Zachary with one exception, a Winchester 70 Featherweight in 7mm08 that must have been a Monday morning after product.  
Before I returned to reloading I passed on several new Win. Rem. and Ruger rifles in the past 7 or 8 years that wouldn't shoot MOA or under with standard ammo, or the paricular ammo/bullet I planned on hunting with. Most of those would perform at 1.5 to 2.5"
Right now I have nine rifles in the cabinet and the seven I have worked up loads for all shoot under MOA. The other two are a Remington model 7 LS...2" group with factory Hornady 150 SSTs...is getting a trigger job and my new TC Encore 7mm08 has not been tested with factory ammo yet, but I may for grins  :wink:

[bgjohn]

.5” @ 200 yards, 4 shots – Ruger M77 MKII VT .22-250
.5” @ 100 yards, 3 shots – Ruger M77 7mm Rem Mag
.95” @ 200 yards, 3 of 4 shots (1.85” overall) - Ruger M77 .257 Roberts

2” @ 100 yards, 18 shots – Marlin 375
0.65” @ 100 yards, 3 of 4 shots (1.04” overall) – Marlin 1895

 :?  :? How come the different # of shots per group? If I shoot 2 shots touching, Is that good with the others all over the target?
JM

[Coyote Hunter]

JM -

THe different number of shots are because I shot them on different days,  sometimes at different ranges, and with different criteria in mind.  But none of the rifles shot "all over the target".  I had a rifle that did that after the barrel went south, but it is long gone.

Eighteen shots into 2" at 100 yards is pretty darn good for a Marlin 375 lever gun, especially when I'm behind the trigger and the sights were factory iron!  Nothing wrong with that load or rifle that a better shooter (and better eyes) couldn't fix!  Why 18 shots that day?  I have no idea!  At this point all I know is that it was February 17, 2002 and I shot over the chrono, then came home and recorded the data in my reloading spreadsheets.

The Marlin .45-70 put four into 1.04" at 100 yards, nothing wrong with that, either - especially when 3 of the 4 were in 0.65".  But 1.04" hardly quals as "all over the target", does it?

The three shots with the 7mm Mag were because that is how I normally test that rifle for accuracy and zero.  More than any other rifle I own, it is a big game rifle, pure and simple - and I rarely take it out except to practice for the annual elk hunt.   The reason for 3 shots is that, as a hunting rifle, the first shot has to count.  There may be a second follow-up shot.  God-forbid that a third shot is needed, but I shoot 3-shot groups just in case.   A couple years back (2001) I put 3 shots into 1.9" with this rifle - at 300 yards.  (My hunting buddy put me to shame using the same load in his Ruger M77 MKII - 3 shots into 1.0".)   Once again, that doesn't even approach "all over the target".

The ,257 Roberts gets used as both a varmint rifle and hopefully this fall as a deer or antelope rifle.  Four shots into 1.85" at 200 yards is "all over the target"  Why 4 shots instead of 3?   Moon phase, maybe, I don't know.

The .22-250 kind of speaks for itself.

I know a lot of people feel 5 shots is required to determine group size.  My own feeling is that the last four are increasingly unimportant.  Even prairie dogs don't generally let you get more than two or three shots before they hole up, and big game doesn't generally wait that long before seeking the next county.  Three shots is plenty for my purposes.

So, to answer your question as to why the different number of shots?  Because!   :lol:

[bgjohn]

Ok, I thought you were just counting the "good" shots. :?
JM

[Rustbucket]

Wouldn't Acceptable Accuracy be a better idea/question than Average Accuracy?  You can only "average your accuracy" from one firearm, as there are to many variables.  Acceptable accuracy would vary for: iron sights, bench rest, single shot, etc.  

[longwinters]

RB,

I took some things for granted. My question revolved around an  out of the box rifle with a scope and shot off a bench.  

Long

[Mike in Ct]

I'd aggree one & half inches at 100 yds is pretty good out of the box...Trouble is some guns sights, handling characteristics & the trigger pull make good shooting very difficult ..So without a little tweaking most won't cut it out of the box with factory ammo..mike in ct

[bigjeepman]

I am guestimating that between me, family members, and friends that I shoot with, the average accuracy is in the neighborhood of 1.5". These include Rugers, Winchesters, Remingtons, Marlins, and AR's.

One thing that we do and possibly others do not, is that we shoot each other's rifles from time to time. We all take turns shooting a new rifle and especially so if it is a new caliber for us. We all have similiar skill levels in our abilities and we feel this helps us to get a better idea for how the rifle is performing. I guess you might call it "getting a second or third opinion" from someone you know and trust.

[7magWoodsman]

Good average accuracy for an out of the box well made rifle should be 1-1.5 inches@100yrds with good optics and the shooter doing thier part. Afterwards most shooters should see .5 with the right load and practice.

[Cabin4]

Average is something that you may have to work for in any given gun. When you get to 1 inch MOA, in my book your at average for the standard off the shelf gun. If you can better this without accuracy work of a smith and using factory ammo, your doing very good.